Stack mechanic questions

[Hiai]

As far as the Caesar vs. Jillian encounter, it can be explained reasonably, even without assuming Warlord Stack bonuses.

First, if Caesar has the highest bonus of any TV unit (it was implied he did even before he was CWL), then he quite likely IS higher level than Jillian's level 9, considering he's seen ALOT of battles, what with the ongoing Carpudlian conflict and the fact that he seems to be around longer than Jillian has (remember, although Jillian has seen a lot of action as CWL of FAQ and then a Barbarian, she wasn't popped until the Predictamancer told Banhammer that FAQ was going to fall). Caesar was picked to be CWL BECAUSE he had outleveled others, right? So, presumably, he'd be TV'S answer to Ansom, at level 10, while Jillian would be more like Ossomer, strong but not quite as strong as Ansom. It may even be that Caesar was an 11 or 12, even though it's pointed out that Ansom's level 10 was unusually high. After all, 10 is NOT the max level, it is merely exponentially harder for each level to obtain, and thus very rare. "30 would be unheard of", not because it was truly unobtainable, according to the Word of the Titans, but because it costs so much xp for each successive level, and because of the nature of the way warlords tend to die. All that being said, it is unlikely Caesar is higher level than Ansom, I just wanted to point out the possibility of it.

Even as a level 10, though (which I think is quite likely, given TV as an actively warring side in the region, and Caesar's remarked-upon merit promotion to Heir), Caesar could easily have three other things going for him that Jillian lacked:

1. Jillian, at the time, was still a Barbarian. We have no information about what bonuses or minuses that may give her, but it's highly likely that as such she does not get the CWL bonus that Caesar does, despite having the "effective CWL" position she has of her forces. Also, it may very well be that Caesar gets an additional Royal bonus for being an Heir, which, although Jillian technically was, without an active side she would probably forgo that bonus.

2. Caesar rolled initiative. Okay, that's seems simplistic, but remember, they both have leadership, so they both decide what they want to do in any encounter. If the "decision" process in an encounter can be sort of unconcious, much like WE do on Earth, then possibly Jillian "decided" to be non-aggressive toward her supposed Ally (much as we are in any given relaxed social situation), while Caesar had decided in advance to treat her as a Hostile, thus giving him an advantage in a "surprise attack" kind of way. Much the same as if we went with our friend to a party, and HIS friend unexpectedly got aggressive with one of us, without any prior meeting. We'd be taken off-guard and not defend ourselves very well on first encounter, probably. Especially if that person was at least as well-trained and strong as we are.

3. This one is a shaky one, but a possible factor: Jillian had seen action earlier in the Turn, hadn't she? As a mercenary in the employ of the RCC, they had seen action at GK before she went off to meet TV forces with Vinnie. Whereas Caesar had come in fresh from TV. Regardless of whether she had seen battle, though, the RCC had ended turn already, and TV had not. So that meant Caesar "attacked" ON turn, and Jillian was OFF turn. Whether Jillian had seen battle that turn already or not, the on/off turn situation might make a difference, considering that refresh happens as your next turn starts, not after you end turn. Any hits or damage she had taken (although the artwork showed no wounds, maybe there was fatigue/hunger/internal wounds?) would have put her at a disadvantage against Caesar, who not only hadn't seen recent battle, but had a much shorter distance to travel. Maybe Move translates to fatigue? Would make sense that reaching your Move limits brings on fatigue effects.

All this being said, I still don't think that Caesar having momentarily shown domination in a wrist tug really translates into a "win" in a true fight situation, anyhow. They were allied sides, after all, and were NOT fighting (yet). Who knows what MIGHT have happened, should the fight have happened? It would have been a great foreshadowing of a future duel between them, if Jillian hadn't become a Queen and gotten herself a CWL, who would surely end up being the one to fight (and get wasted by, due to lower level) Caesar. I can definitely see a future conflict on the horizon, though, if Caesar ever offs Don King, since FAQ would surely be his very first tartget to invade in that instance.

I am led to speculation into the battle capabilities of Royalty that become Rulers. Do they lose their Warlord bonuses entirely, as Signamancy seems to indicate? Hmmm...well that's another thread.


Addendum: Don't forget that Attack stats and Defense stats are not the same- it's quite likely that both Caesar and Jillian have higher Attack than Defense, and thus whoever is attacking would have an advantage over whoever is defending. Wait until she attacks back though!

[Hiai]

As far as stacking mechanics go:

Mention was made of Wanda's bonuses stacking with Warlord bonuses. This is entirely true. Remember that according to Word of the Titans, Casters have Leadership (and are thus capable of leading a stack, and choosing whether to engage during an encounter), but are NOT Warlords (as a general rule, we obviously have an Anomaly in Parson). Thus, they can lead a stack, but do not give a bonus to general units in the stack the way a Warlord would. They DO, however, give a bonus to any units that are specific to their discipline, so Wanda gives a massive bonus (based on Caster level?) to the uncroaked and decrypted, while Sizemore gives a formerly large (implied to be greater than his caster status, possibly) and now truly massive bonus to his golems. These bonuses are exclusive of the Warlord bonuses, so they can stack with each other.

This would result in Wanda's forces getting higher bonuses than Sizemore's, even if Sizemore and Wanda were the same level. Because Wanda can give her bonus to Decrypted (and uncroaked) Warlords, who then give their buffed bonuses to the stacks they lead. On top of that, she gets Parson's CWL bonus.

Sizemore, on the other hand, has no Warlords under him (unless Golems have leadership, which has not been indicated at all), so the bonuses come strictly from his caster bonus multiplied by Parson's CWL bonus. The possible exception might be that Caster bonuses are multiplied by Warlord bonuses, so that maybe if Sizemore was in Ansom's stack and passed on Ansom's bonus as multiplied by his caster levels on to his golems. That's an iffy one. However, Sizemore's units seem to all be some pretty awesome heavies as it is, so single units are probably stronger than the average unit in Wanda's forces.

Not that I'd ever want to see it, but what if casters CAN keep all their powers if they're Decrypted? Can you imagine Sizemore, with all his caster bonuses to his already tough golems, in a stack led by Ansom, with Wanda there multiplying THAT, all multiplied by Parson's CWL bonus, which might very well be larger soon, if he does go to JS and prevails? I shudder to think! Is there something Heavier than Heavy Metal Golems? Certainly, a single Golem that could take down a level 5 city Garrison wall by itself!

I can see it now... a Heavy Metal Golem that has been so buffed it's rolled over to the other side... Tesh the Golem, taking out TV by himself, no seige required! lol

[GaryThunder]

I don't know exactly how the attack stat correlates with raw physical strength, but Caesar wasn't even trying when subduing Jillian. And...well, perhaps Caesar is over Level 10, but Ansom's pretty renowned for being who he is, and you'd think a Level 11-12 unit would be almost mythical in its power. No doubting that Caesar's ridiculously tough, but he doesn't strike me as the legendary warrior type.

[Hiai]

Well, it's clear that when viewing a unit, you see certain stats. For example, let's take Bogroll, from the panel where Parson first tried out his 3-D glasses to see what all normal Erf units see:

Bogroll
Race: Twoll
Class: Heavy Unit, Lackey
Move: 0 (Garrison)
Hits: 12
Combat: 5
Defense: 4
Special: Fabrication

As you can see, Bogroll had a higher Combat than he did defense- and he was a Heavy, garrisoned unit, which would presumably mean a higher defense stat than normal, sacrificing Move for Defense, at least in most similar turn-based games. Now, given that he was a lower level Heavy (until he levelled twice before croaking), I'm assuming that both Jillian and Caesar would have a much higher Combat stat than Defense stat, especially given their Warlord statuses. Whoever "rolled initiative", as I pointed out before, would have a clear and definite advantage over the one defending, even if they were exactly the same level.
As I said, the likeihood of Caesar being 11 is sma, but possible. The likelihood of him being level 10 is much greater, and I'd reckon him to be AT LEAST the same level as Jillian. He'dhave an advantage over her even at the same level, being on the attack rather than the defense, but I'm guessing he's a level 10, with a CWL bonus on top of it, which she would NOT have, because Ansom was the CWL in the RCC1, which she was allied to. There's no need to assume any other bonuses on top of that to claim he'd be able to at least temporarily dominate her. Like I said before, though, we never got to see her return attack, so we don't know how that would have turned out in the end...all we are seeing there is a snapshot in time- the next panel of the fight, if it had happened, could very well ahve been her kicking him in the crotch and watching him writhing around helplessly on the ground. lol

Also, remember that Caesar is also the guy who went up against Stanley, an Overlord with an Arkentool bonus, and LIVED (unconcious, but still!) His Defense must be pretty darn high for that, so I imagine his Combat is pretty impressive. Not to say Jillian isn't, just to say that Caesar is one tough character, and I don't boggle at all at the possibilty of Jillian being at least MOMENTARILY caught off guard.

Plus, none of this takes into account "specials" for any of them. Could be that Jillian has a special involving bonding with gwiffons, while Caesar's special could be a bonus to attacking humanoids (as implied by the whole vampire theme of TV). Dunno about any of that, but it's certainly possible. At least as possible (and more probable, in my view) than that possibilty of Warlord bonuses stacking UPWARD onto Caesar from the Warlords he's leading)

[drachefly]

I can see it now... a Heavy Metal Golem that has been so buffed it's rolled over to the other side... Tesh the Golem, taking out TV by himself, no seige required! lol

The three leaders would be pretty fat targets though.

[GaryThunder]

Yeah, I'll admit that I'm probably wrong about leadership bonuses stacking. It does make more sense for only the unit leading the stack to give the "leadership" bonus. I thought it was more like Wanda's bonus, improving all troops in your stack whether you're leading it or not.

[Thunder]

i wonder if the stack is limited in a sense that everyones bounus applies and is added but is reduced for each unit in the stack.
what i mean is that you have an 8 man stack of warlords. warlord one effects at his regular bounus but then diminishes after that
the seccond at say 7/8 the third at 3/4 etc etc etc and by the time 8 rolls around the stack bonus is gone

or the formulas more complicated than mine and after 8 its just so small that it rounds to zero except for a massive level unit which means a side would have to have 8 other massive level units which has never happened so erfworlders assume it maxes at 8

[kagato23]

As to the Caesar/Jillian question, also remember another important thing:

Levels and leadership bonus alone do NOT dictate combat. You still have your own base stats before bonus.

My guess? Transylvito units have higher base stats to start with compared to human units.

They are vampire analouges. ANd vampires are traditionally noticibly stronger then humans.

This is balanced: there are less of this particular unit. A lot less. You probably need to be a warlord to be one of these units, that's why they don't have infantry. Instead, their version of infantry are the bats, good for scouting but worthless unled. IN group combat, it evens out; even with higher attack bats are still gonna have lousy defense, so against a normal infantry stack a trans warlord could find himself surrounded and booped pretty thoroughly. But one on one? They are nasty. And we know that Caesar was stacked by the time he was crushing jillians hand, so yeah, his attack had just gone higher and was probably above hers even if they had a one-on-one duel. Add the fact that he's a chief warlord to that...

See, I don't think Jillian as a barbarian gets more then a warlord bonus. She has no side to be the chief warlord of, her side fell. That's why she's a barbarian in the first place. So yeah, Caesar's bonus is huge compared to hers, even if she gets his CWL bonus for being in alliance with them at that point... and she'd lose that the second that attack hit and she broke off from them, leaving her even lower.

i wonder if the stack is limited in a sense that everyone's bonus applies and is added but is reduced for each unit in the stack.
what i mean is that you have an 8 man stack of warlords. warlord one effects at his regular bonus but then diminishes after that
the seccond at say 7/8 the third at 3/4 etc etc etc and by the time 8 rolls around the stack bonus is gone

or the formulas more complicated than mine and after 8 its just so small that it rounds to zero except for a massive level unit which means a side would have to have 8 other massive level units which has never happened so erfworlders assume it maxes at 8

Wow Thunder. I"m going to go ahead and guess that like most of this world, the explanation is more likely LESS complicated. Warlord/CWL with highest leadership gives bonus. When cwl is in stack, warlords still give bonus to their own stack, but warlord bonus is likely much lower then CWL bonus (i'm guessing at least .5 instead of 1 and only to your stack and not hex), so unless you have a warlord of higher level then the guy in charge, you don't have a stronger stack then he would (which is why parson is such a unique case, guys like Oss can't figure out why he'd be in charge)

[Thunder]

but then why not stack everyone together in one giant stack and give them all the biggest possible bonus?
there is something that says that 8 is the magic number for stacking and that anything after 8 is somehow less than optimal. what i was trying to figure out was why, or even how it could be explained

[Lamech]

My guess? Transylvito units have higher base stats to start with compared to human units.

They are vampire analouges. ANd vampires are traditionally noticibly stronger then humans.

I also note that Ceaser uses his hands and Jillian's weapon of choice is a BF sword. Lets say for the sake of argument that Jillian+Sword=Ceaser. Jillian + dinky knife on the other hand... not so much. Presumably Translovito trades the ability to use weapons well for mad hand-to-hand combat skills. (I do note there was one case of a Translovito warlord with a knife, but he seems to be the exception.)

Although I seem to recall him saying that the weakest unit in the stack had 30 attack, but I wouldn't think that Wanda's bonus would stack on her, so I don't see how she could have had an attack as much as 30... Even if her bonus does stack on her, she'd still have to have at least 5 attack which seems unusual for a caster (Jack is a master class foolamancer and he only had 2)... But maybe the Arkenpliers give her an extra 3... HELL! We didn't even take the artifact bonus into account. Although its not specified if that bonus is applied to attacks or something else.

Wanda seems to have really high combat points. She went toe-to-toe with Ansom when he was holding the arkenpliers, and she fought him to a stand still. Hmm... I note that the lowest unit in the stack was a 6 base. Ansom was three higher than the lowest (33vs.30), so he is a 9. Wanda has at least a 30 but since she doesn't get her bonus (right?) she must have an extra 8 attack to make up for it and is therefore at a 14 base.

[Thunder]

would she get his leadership bonus though which would compensate for him not getting hers?

[the_tick_rules]

I could see them giving bonuses to each other. As chief warlord his bonus does apply to every unit under his side, of which wanda is a member. Wanda also gives a bonus to all decrypted units, of which ansom is a member.

[kagato23]

but then why not stack everyone together in one giant stack and give them all the biggest possible bonus?
there is something that says that 8 is the magic number for stacking and that anything after 8 is somehow less than optimal. what i was trying to figure out was why, or even how it could be explained

Easy. Because to be a stack you have to stick together. Putting aside the physical limitations of what can actually fit in a hex, that means you can only fight one target at a time: stacks act as one towards the same goal. So lets say your enemy has five led stacks to your one super stack: He can have say, two stacks engage you, which while straight on couldn't win, could do real damage setting up a pincer or flank attack that probably has good odds of taking out your leadership, which turns your super stack into a weaker one that's still getting flanked and now has even less ability to deal with that. Meanwhile, the three other stacks just breezed right by (and even if you tried to attack them, two still get through, this is why you have screening stacks) that could go on to attack targets of opportunity for your side if that super stack was trying to guard something.

Wanda seems to have really high combat points. She went toe-to-toe with Ansom when he was holding the arkenpliers, and she fought him to a stand still. Hmm... I note that the lowest unit in the stack was a 6 base. Ansom was three higher than the lowest (33vs.30), so he is a 9. Wanda has at least a 30 but since she doesn't get her bonus (right?) she must have an extra 8 attack to make up for it and is therefore at a 14 base.

I'm not so sure it's that simple. And I really can't think that wanda is 14 base compared to Ansom's 9: she's a caster, night a fighter. Better at it then most of her kind, but to beat ansom she had a stack helping her. I have to think he has higher base regularly. Important thing to remember though, is that she's also holding an arkentool. While the tools tend to have the best stats fighting units of their types (hammer can one hit ko any dragon, pliers dust uncroaked) they also have ridiculously combat power against anything else, if Stanley is any indication. So it's a good bet that in addition to the uncroaked bonus, the pliers give her an individual combat bonus that's nothing to sneeze at.

As for Ansom, while I have nothing to back this up, I figure his base attack is probably above 10. We can presume he popped with more then 1 base attack, and I'd imagine that for a warlord, that would go up every level (a caster probably not). This works if the stacking bonus is not just +1 person = +1 attack, which I think is the case anyway. I'm guessing the bonus isn't all that hot.

[Thunder]

even if it were that its beter to attack smaller groups in a maneuver(which i doubt would be nearly as good as say ones entire army getting a much larger bounus) that still doesnt explain why the stacks max at 8. we have been told that the bonus applies but only untill 8 this is the question i want answered

[kagato23]

even if it were that its beter to attack smaller groups in a maneuver(which i doubt would be nearly as good as say ones entire army getting a much larger bounus) that still doesnt explain why the stacks max at 8. we have been told that the bonus applies but only untill 8 this is the question i want answered

To answer both questions:

Versatility to the first part. Yes, you can make a highly charged army. But it can only attack ONE THING. We've seen screening stacks exist in this game. So lets say again, you divide your forces on your turn into a strong stack and a weak stack. Your weaker stack screens the large omni-stack you described. It dies, obviously. But in the time it takes to kill it, the other stack just walked off and past your defenses, and can pretty much do whatever it wants while your big bad army sits there. Also, with no screening stacks, you can't defend either. An enemy surronds your hex or even your stack in a hex at multiple sides with arrowmen. You are always a target, because you can only counter-attack one stack at a time, which means the other hex's arrows will be tearing you apart unopposed. War of attrition quickly takes it's toll you. This is what happened to lord manpower: a flanking stack of marbits opened his stack up to enemy crossfire, and then he was dead.

One super-stack also limits you to one hex at a time, which means your only as fast as your slowest moving unit or somebody's gotta break. Outside of choke-hold points like the bridge at the beginning of book two, your going to be in lots of trouble the first time you fight archery or the enemy just avoids you entirely. And since you can only attack or defend at one time, the first time your big hex-army sets out, your castle is besieged and everybody disbands anyway.

As to why stacks max at 8? Whatever the stack bonus is, I'm guessing it's linear. If it kept going, your theory would be right: a force of say, 100, even led by a low level warlord would nearly always beat a stack of 25, even with a high level warlord. The titans want more balance in their world, so when they crafted it, they obviously added in "Max stack bonus caps at 8." It's a big part of WHY the super-stacks you propose won't work. The division's I mentioned clearly give more total value to strategy and effective combat then the bonus' assigned to a CWL in one super stack. Even if nobody in Erfworld could figure all this out, you know parson would have. The fact that GK isn't doing that even now with their utterly dominating CWL + Arkentooled croakamancer bonus seems to be a good argument in and off itself.

[Thunder]

yes the answer of 8 seems to just be the arbitrary will, but the question i really want to know i think posted somewhere earlier, was that is just what does it mean that the bonus ends at 8?

does that mean that the first 8 guys get bonuses shared from the other 7(or 8 if a bonus applies to ones self) and the remaining get nothing

does the bonus granted to the entire group only =the cumulative bonus granted by the 8 highest bonus granters and thats it

im sure there are more options, but what really bothers me is that we have been given this stupidly broad point that stacks max at 8 and yet really have no idea what it means even though its integral to all of erfs combat mechanics

[GaryThunder]

Stacks don't max at 8. Stanley was in one massive stack with his Knights and his dwagons in his battle against Transylvito at the pass. "Dwagons lost leadership. He ditched his stack." In that same fight, Caesar had dozens of bats in his stack. A "max stack" seems to me like around 30.

[drachefly]

Thirty? Why thirty? Seems sort of arbitrary at that point.

[kagato23]

yes the answer of 8 seems to just be the arbitrary will, but the question i really want to know i think posted somewhere earlier, was that is just what does it mean that the bonus ends at 8?

does that mean that the first 8 guys get bonuses shared from the other 7(or 8 if a bonus applies to ones self) and the remaining get nothing

does the bonus granted to the entire group only =the cumulative bonus granted by the 8 highest bonus granters and thats it

im sure there are more options, but what really bothers me is that we have been given this stupidly broad point that stacks max at 8 and yet really have no idea what it means even though its integral to all of erfs combat mechanics

Okay, I think your confused as to how the stack bonus works to begin with. The units inside of it have nothing to do with it, only the numbers.Looking at the relative page, "groups of units get a stack bonus that maxes at 8".

The stack bonus is based completely on number of units. If you have 4 units in a stack, the bonus is not as high as 8 units in the stack. But that's where the cap comes in: A stack of 12 units has the same stack bonus as a stack of 8 units. A stack made of a warlord and 7 dragons gets the same stack bonus as a stack of 8 unled infantry (the warlord bonus is a compeltely seperate thing). Now, obviously, the stack of 12 units has 4 more units in it, which in a pratical sense means more attacks per round/dps, but it's actual stack bonus caps at the 8.

Now, (and I think this is part of your confusion, apologies if I'm clarifying something you know), the other important thing is that while different kinds of bonuses stack, bonuses of the same type dont' stack ON EACH OTHER. So you can have a caster bonus and a dance fight bonus and a leadership bonus and a stack bonus going on all in one stack at once, but you can't get TWO leadership bonuses because you have two warlord in the stack.

For example, lets say your stack has two warlords in it: a level 8 and a level 6. The level 8 is leading the stack, he gives a better leadership bonus than the level 6 does. But only the level 8 is giving his bonus while he's leading the stack, the level 6's leadership bonus is irrelevant and doesn't count unless he's leading the stack. so if it's a large stack of say, 16 people, it might make mroe sense to distribute them into two 8-man stacks, with a warlord in each of them. now you can do two things at once instead of 1, which is where strategy can come in.

[the_tick_rules]

It's just a guess. Considering in-comic the phrase max stack has been used several time there has to be some limit. The bonus stops at 8 but yeah they can fit more if they want. Kagato showed some good points about the drawbacks to uber-stacking