Book 2 – Page 51

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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Hiai » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:22 pm

A. lol irl @ "thwart"

B. for those that are still confused about "myth", there's a long Myth series by Robert Lynn Asprin, in which the word "myth" replaces all version of words that have any form of "miss" or "mis" in them, as a longstanding running gag. The protagonist, Skeeve, also has a pet dragon that eventually ends up speaking, revealing himself to have a lisp.

C. Please oh please oh please by all that is good and special in this world...can we PLEASE not re-hash the "what Tramennis should have done if he weren't an idiot" debate? I think the 30+ pages of it in the last couple of updates has covered it all very adequately, and no one is EVER going to change their minds one way or the other, so no point in going on about it AGAIN, right?

D. As far as "casting off-turn" debates go, it's fairly simple. I don't see why it's become such a complicated debate. Casters CAN cast off-turn...they just can't cast out of their zone, because they can't MOVE out of their zone. And they run out of juice during their turn when they are active. So, all those MK casters and Sizemore are casting their heads off when it's not their turn, remember? But when their turn starts at dawn, refreshing their juice, that juice is reserved for their Side only. Any leftovers at end of Turn are theirs to play with as they like, if their Rulers so deem. Like Stanley allowed with his casters. Wanda can decrypt 'til the cows come home even though it's not GK's turn, because the 'Pliers use the juice so she won't run out, and she's in her zone. She just can't decrypt anything outside of her zone. I can see a debate about whether she could decrypt in a different zone of the same hex, it being a city hex with different Movement rules and all, but any debate about whether she should be able to cast at all off-turn is ridiculous, as it's been covered umpteen times in comic, in text update, and in Word of Titans. It's Move that's limiting them, not juice and not casting rules.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby effataigus » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:39 pm

Angband wrote:
Syal wrote:Uncroaked decay and fall apart after several turns. The longer you can wait to raise them, the longer they'll last. That was before they made the first Decrypted, after all.


Sorry, that's not right.

The more time and attention a croakamancer can spend uncroaking a unit, the more powerful it will be and the longer it will last. It has nothing to do with how long the body "ripens" before uncroaking.


I think his point was that if Wanda waited for the turn to start then they would get an extra turn with that uncroaked unit before he decayed completely. Given that Wanda had only one turn to uncroak all of the units in the ruins, she would probably have to do some kind of trioxin-like uncroaking... which would only give most of the units a couple turns a best. Hence a +1 turn life span might actually be a significant fraction of their useful lives.

Perhaps not... but I admire the thought process!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Oberon » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:04 pm

the_tick_rules wrote:I don't think he [Charlie] can ship forces that quickly there if he doesn't, can he?
This is unproven, but highly suggested in the strip: I believe that Charlie can teleport his archons, either from anywhere to anywhere, or from his castle to anywhere. The appearance of the angels over the RCC forces early in the game showed no movement, just a glow and they were there. And the questioning from Charlie about just how many archons it would require to take the GK garrison in one turn, and then that exact amount (or perhaps more) suddenly appearing in GK airspace are hints at this capability. Yes, some archons can veil. And yes, Charlie is known for stashing archons about where they can be hired out and where they can also spy and collect more intelligence for him. But the angels were shown to be in rocky, perhaps mountainous terrain, just like Charlie's sole city, and then they were suddenly over the RCC forces. And Charlie having 80+ archons within a one turn range of GK is either super-bat-planning, or is an indication of teleportation.
Atomic wrote:Goodness, you guys sure know how to talk about nothing. Don't get me wrong, you do it well, but black horses and Sasquatches? Seriously? Really?
Your powers of understatement are legend! It wasn't merely Sasquatches, it was Martian, water closet dwelling, human technology savvy (deodorant and toilets, at least), UFO piloting, invisible and/or precognitive (always able to be either unseen or absent from the WC whenever you peek in) Sasquatches!
Atomic wrote:As far as Adam's arm; I'd like to think it'll regrow.
It will. Pre-decryption Ossomer was rather bruised up. Post decryption he was whole and fresh.
effataigus wrote:This is a really good point! Certainty in off-turn decryption being forbidden just dropped from 80% to 50%.
Um, I'm really confused as to why this is a point of debate. Wanda just decrypted a dwagon and Antium, off-turn. Is the debate over off-turn decryption when not in a combat situation? Because I missed the mention of that, if any.
Squishalot wrote:Presumably, things like fabrication and, by association, golem making can only occur on-turn. Not everything is either benign or offensive. I'd warrant that the perfect warlord spell also required you to be on your turn.
Of your list, fabrication, at least, is possible off-turn.
effataigus wrote:... and to head off a likely response before it comes, yes, foolmancy is forbidden off turn in inactive hexes. From Word of the Titans:

Why could Parson not have ordered a veil to be cast, even if the Foolamancer had been in the group with the wounded dwagons? It was not his turn, and they were not under attack. Once Jillian entered the hex, a theoretical Foolamancer within that hex could have veiled, but it wouldn't have been very effective at fooling her.
That definition has some holes. Jack was not "under attack" when he put the screen on the stack with he and Wanda in it at Parson's command, off-turn. All the GK forces were indeed staring down Jetstone forces and were able to attack or be attacked, but there was no combat underway, and hadn't been, and it was a good amount of time before any did begin.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby GaryThunder » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:25 pm

I think his point was that if Wanda waited for the turn to start then they would get an extra turn with that uncroaked unit before he decayed completely. Given that Wanda had only one turn to uncroak all of the units in the ruins, she would probably have to do some kind of trioxin-like uncroaking... which would only give most of the units a couple turns a best. Hence a +1 turn life span might actually be a significant fraction of their useful lives.

Perhaps not... but I admire the thought process!


I think y'all are overthinking Wanda's eagerness for GK's turn just a tad.

She's a caster. Her juice refills at the beginning of her turn. Not to mention she gets healed from whatever damage is still lingering on her from the fall (and maybe it partially healed her mental damage? unknown). Yeah, she can Decrypt without using juice, apparently, but she didn't know that at the time. She was probably bone-dry (lol) on juice due to all the mass uncroaking and the volcano spell on her previous turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby GaryThunder » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:29 pm

This is unproven, but highly suggested in the strip: I believe that Charlie can teleport his archons, either from anywhere to anywhere, or from his castle to anywhere. The appearance of the angels over the RCC forces early in the game showed no movement, just a glow and they were there. And the questioning from Charlie about just how many archons it would require to take the GK garrison in one turn, and then that exact amount (or perhaps more) suddenly appearing in GK airspace are hints at this capability. Yes, some archons can veil. And yes, Charlie is known for stashing archons about where they can be hired out and where they can also spy and collect more intelligence for him. But the angels were shown to be in rocky, perhaps mountainous terrain, just like Charlie's sole city, and then they were suddenly over the RCC forces. And Charlie having 80+ archons within a one turn range of GK is either super-bat-planning, or is an indication of teleportation.


I'll address just this: It's not super-bat-planning at all, it's common frelling sense. Charlie has obviously known about the RCC's campaign against Gobwin Knob for some time now. He's been able to see, at least for the last four or five turns, a massive column of infantry, heavies and siege ponderously grinding its way up to GK's walls. One Arkentool is about to clash against another - yes, only one is attuned, but the other guy brought way more than enough friends to tip the scales back. This is momentous, and long awaited. I'd consider it daft of Charlie to not have a sizeable force within one turn's move of GK and/or the column for the last ten turns or so before the Battle, simply for the added leverage having men (women, whatever) in the field gives him.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby teratorn » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:37 pm

Oberon wrote:That definition has some holes. Jack was not "under attack" when he put the screen on the stack with he and Wanda in it at Parson's command, off-turn.


Indeed, the references had been just to have an enemy in the same hex or city not to any need for attack. This fight was confirmation of that. The text in

http://www.erfworld.com/wp-content/uplo ... -06-09.jpg

shows no reference to zones, the enemy just needs to be in the same city.

Oberon wrote:This is unproven, but highly suggested in the strip: I believe that Charlie can teleport his archons, either from anywhere to anywhere, or from his castle to anywhere.

Charlie can't teleport archons, he had to cross GK's airspace and got his units shot. He wouldn't need to if he could teleport them.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Oberon » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:45 pm

teratorn wrote:Charlie can't teleport archons, he had to cross GK's airspace and got his units shot. He wouldn't need to if he could teleport them.
That does not necessarily follow. If he can only teleport from his city, then units in the field have to cross airspace and get shot at. If he can't teleport into a city (not a limitation I cited, but likely even if he can teleport them) then they have to cross the airspace and get shot at. If he is trying to hide this ability (which tends to be contradicted the the possible appearance of the angels above the Jetstone forces), then he may simply choose to let them cross an airspace and be shot at. There is still plenty of fodder to chew here, without wandering off into the realm of pure invention.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Squishalot » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:11 pm

Althernai wrote:The Unaroyal units attacking her hex were all dead before she decrypted them.

This goes back to what I was discussing with Smoker before - it stands to reason that once the hex is engaged, there is a period of 'in combat' time that allows for off-turn casting. Otherwise, the moment that the attackers drop dead, all casting is off. There has to be that break point, certainly, but the instant the last enemy unit is croaked seems a bit unreasonable. I take your point though, I just don't think it's right. Not enough evidence to back either of us up.

The only thing that points to her being unable to decrypt off-turn is exalting in the fact that the turn has started, but she could be thinking of something else (e.g. she can now decrypt everything outside the city as well as inside).

That seems unlikely, if you ask me. It does look like she wants to play around with her newly attuned powers. Otherwise, she would have started decrypting the moment they stepped back into GK.

Willowleafs wrote:It could have been her Erfworld-thinking that initially made her believe that she could only use the Arkentool on her own turn, and that she learned only later it does (or doesn't) need to be that way.

This is Wanda we're talking about - you don't think she would've tried?

effataigus wrote:But what does this have to do with the situation at hand? If Jetstone ends turn now there will still be both JS and GK units in the Spacerock hex (drawing a distinction here between the atrium subzone of the garrison zone of the Spacerock hex and the entire hex itself).

Nothing, really. It was a slight side topic. The question was whether she'd be able to decrypt anything before Charlie drops in in the next morning.

As for units being in the hex, she probably still can cast, realistically speaking. Kingworld was cast without an engagement being made.

Oberon wrote:Of your list, fabrication, at least, is possible off-turn.

Indeed, you are correct.

That definition has some holes. Jack was not "under attack" when he put the screen on the stack with he and Wanda in it at Parson's command, off-turn. All the GK forces were indeed staring down Jetstone forces and were able to attack or be attacked, but there was no combat underway, and hadn't been, and it was a good amount of time before any did begin.

That's not a big deal. Jillian just needed to be in the hex - she didn't need to have started attacking. Example, again, is Kingworld (from a casting POV, not a game breaking one) - no attack was made.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby DoctorJest » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:54 pm

And the questioning from Charlie about just how many archons it would require to take the GK garrison in one turn, and then that exact amount (or perhaps more) suddenly appearing in GK airspace are hints at this capability.


They still arrived on Charlie's turn. Nothing says he can conduct off-turn movement. If he had, I think it would have been mentioned, so noteworthy would it be.

Yes, some archons can veil. And yes, Charlie is known for stashing archons about where they can be hired out and where they can also spy and collect more intelligence for him. But the angels were shown to be in rocky, perhaps mountainous terrain, just like Charlie's sole city, and then they were suddenly over the RCC forces. And Charlie having 80+ archons within a one turn range of GK is either super-bat-planning, or is an indication of teleportation.


Or veiling combined with really high MOVE.

I don't think Archons have infinite MOVE. I think it would be noteworthy if they did, or if Charley had a unique capability to grant them that. Parson would certainly have learned about it from the Decrypted Archons if so.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby the_tick_rules » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:37 pm

I find it unlikely as well that Charlie has some mass teleport power. Most likely he had alot of them already sent there and they were veiled or something like that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby multilis » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:35 pm

"And Charlie having 80+ archons within a one turn range of GK"

I think only 30 archons. "Great western conflict", 600 archons to work with, divide them up into 4 great conflicts and bunch of smaller hirings, and having 30 in reserve in area with 2 of 4 known archentools isn't that unusual, especially when some were previously booked for hiring, then "an offer they could not accept".

*Getting archons to move extra turn(s)*

1) If an archon can transport another archon (even if requires net), they may also be able to cheat using a super chain similar to how GK used dragon chain... 180 archons carry 90 archons one turn away, then those 60 of those 90 carry the other 30 archons another turn away, so using 270 total archons it is possible to have 30 archons an extra 2 turns away without being absurdly broken as far as game mechanics goes.

2) There is also that known trick from Book 1 with double turns that Jetstone/TV planned, Charlie can have arrangement where some of his archons are "allied" with a friendly power to allow switch of alliance in order to pull a double turn.

3) A turnomancer can apparently do some extra moving of units, and Charlie hires casters when needed.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Dr Pepper » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:22 am

Ok, i went to my bathroom and spoke to the sasquatch. He can cross hexes off turn, btw, but only while riding a black horse. He says that Wanda couldn't decrypt that first time until GK's turn started because she couldn't complete her attuning until it started. Since then being fully attuned, she can decrypt anytime. Then he stole my deodorant to sell to the martians.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby unleet » Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:39 am

Dr Pepper wrote:Ok, i went to my bathroom and spoke to the sasquatch. He can cross hexes off turn, btw, but only while riding a black horse. He says that Wanda couldn't decrypt that first time until GK's turn started because she couldn't complete her attuning until it started. Since then being fully attuned, she can decrypt anytime. Then he stole my deodorant to sell to the martians.


Or she was merely happy that their side starting a new turn at dawn meant that 1, their side still existed, and 2, no enemies in the battlespace.

Nah.... that's too simple
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby teratorn » Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:23 am

Oberon wrote:That does not necessarily follow. If he can only teleport from his city, then units in the field have to cross airspace and get shot at. If he can't teleport into a city (not a limitation I cited, but likely even if he can teleport them) then they have to cross the airspace and get shot at.

Being able to «broadcast» units (not just archons) is something I and others had suggested during discussions in book one as a possible function of the arkendish. It made sense due to way archons seemed to just appear immediately at the right place but the evidence for it is weak. It's frustrating Parson not dwelling into the properties of the arkendish.

On the subject of archon move. Archons seem not to have exaggerated move, for if they had huge amounts of it Ansom would have had no problems in searching for the injured dwagons at the donut of doom. Archon limits in move are also implicit in the way GK gathers feral dwagons:
Parson wrote:So we don't send you. We send Archons. Every turn, we send out all the Archons and scout all the hexes you can get to and return. Or maybe just the ones they can get to and return. Safer that way.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby joosy » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:47 am

Folks,

It is canon. You can uncroak off-turn.
Fourth Paragraph:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-06-09.jpg

Also, Tram's whole 'plan' was to try recover his brothers. He was started on this path by comments made by Jillian. (http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-04-29.jpg Panels 6 & 7)

His conversation with Charlie was intended to find out if Charlie knew if decrypted could be turned. Alas, Charlie did not want to discuss that so Tram had to resort to parley with Gobwin Knob, specifically Ossomer, to see if he could get any further clues.

Of course, if things continue to go south for him, Tram may be able to get some real experience as a decrypted himself. Hopefully not as he makes such a wonderfully foppish foil to everyone's plans.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Althernai » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:22 am

GaryThunder wrote:She's a caster. Her juice refills at the beginning of her turn. Not to mention she gets healed from whatever damage is still lingering on her from the fall (and maybe it partially healed her mental damage? unknown). Yeah, she can Decrypt without using juice, apparently, but she didn't know that at the time. She was probably bone-dry (lol) on juice due to all the mass uncroaking and the volcano spell on her previous turn.

Thanks, that's it! She was happy because she got her juice back -- the volcano almost certainly drained all three casters completely. Between this and the fact that it is possible to uncroak off-turn, I'm almost certain that she can decrypt off-turn even without fighting in the hex.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby kagato23 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:25 am

Althernai wrote:
GaryThunder wrote:She's a caster. Her juice refills at the beginning of her turn. Not to mention she gets healed from whatever damage is still lingering on her from the fall (and maybe it partially healed her mental damage? unknown). Yeah, she can Decrypt without using juice, apparently, but she didn't know that at the time. She was probably bone-dry (lol) on juice due to all the mass uncroaking and the volcano spell on her previous turn.

Thanks, that's it! She was happy because she got her juice back -- the volcano almost certainly drained all three casters completely. Between this and the fact that it is possible to uncroak off-turn, I'm almost certain that she can decrypt off-turn even without fighting in the hex.


It might also be that juice does have a partial condition: you have to have SOME juice to cast, even if there is no actual juice requirements. No juice = can't cast, might be a basic rule that supercedes -0 juice cost for as spell (I'm thinking like a video game action bar, with casting being unselectable when your out).

Either way, based on all the evidence we've seen since, Wanda can def cast right now, barring sudden and unexpected death. Turn end, troop withdrawal and time of day aren't concerns.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby ryanroyce » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:25 am

unleet wrote:
Dr Pepper wrote:Ok, i went to my bathroom and spoke to the sasquatch. He can cross hexes off turn, btw, but only while riding a black horse. He says that Wanda couldn't decrypt that first time until GK's turn started because she couldn't complete her attuning until it started. Since then being fully attuned, she can decrypt anytime. Then he stole my deodorant to sell to the martians.


Or she was merely happy that their side starting a new turn at dawn meant that 1, their side still existed, and 2, no enemies in the battlespace.

Nah.... that's too simple


Pretty much my take on that. Emerging victorious in the face of such desperate odds is more than sufficient reason to be ecstatic.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby teratorn » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:53 pm

kagato23 wrote:It might also be that juice does have a partial condition: you have to have SOME juice to cast, even if there is no actual juice requirements. No juice = can't cast, might be a basic rule that supercedes -0 juice cost for as spell (I'm thinking like a video game action bar, with casting being unselectable when your out).


After the trimancer thing and before start of their turn:

Sizemore was able to pull gems from the rubble using his shovel.
Wanda attuned to the pliers
Maggie had enough juice to send a thinkagram to Stanley.

I think Wanda decrypting Ansom after the start of the turn was just a coincidence. She didn't even know what to expect, she was treating the thing like a regular uncroaking (something that can be done off turn but it's better if you spend a lot of juice) hence she dug Ansom. People are over-analyzing this. By page #146 it was already sort of obvious there is no juice involved in decrypting, like there is no juice involved in using the hammer.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby drachefly » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:24 pm

On the other hand, Maggie and Sizemore hadn't done a Trioxin for over 2000 troops on their previous turns like Wanda had the previous morning. Sizemore had done a fair amount of digging and filling in, and Maggie had mostly saved her juice to the end.
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