Book 2 - Text Updates 039

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Squishalot » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:26 pm

Oberon wrote:Except for the very chewy CWL bonus that spreads further than any simple warlord. In that fight even a L5 Caesar would have been a strong contributor. But with him being set up to "get a shot" at Stanley, I'll go with Caesar being at least the equal of Jillian's 9, and potentially higher given how easily he negated her (admittedly distraught and probably not as effective as her usual attack style) knife swipe at him.

That's only if a CWL hex bonus gets stacked on top of a normal WL bonus. But if that were the case, then Jillian's stack would be a lot more powerful than Caesar's stack, because they'd get her 9 AND his CWL 4-5, whereas his stack would only get his 9-10. That's the bit that stumps me about the idea of CWL stacking with WL bonuses.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Oberon » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:33 pm

John Thacker wrote:Wow, so much incorrect here. You shouldn't laugh at other people for misusing labels if you're going to make such amateurish and ignorant mistakes yourself.

First, the taxes to build and maintain the highway system are measured and adjusted by how much you use the highways. The Interstate Highway System is almost entirely funded by the Highway Trust Fund, [...]
I thought I replied to this previously, but it is gone. I'll try to recreate.

So, amateurish and ignorant? Are you forgetting that taxes are entirely fungible? Or are you living in the fantasy land in which taxes supposedly collected for purpose A are always and only used for purpose A? If you'd like an excellent example of a politician trying to convince the American public of this myth, please look up "locked box." And then refer to the value of the "assets" currently in the Social Security Trust Fund. Here's an interesting fact: Those "assets" are valued at exactly nothing. What is your concept of a trust fund?
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Lamech » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:44 pm

'
Oberon wrote:And yet, wasn't it Scarlet who predicted that they would soon see his body falling down? Clearly he was in some kind of danger, or Scarlet has no mind for tactical combat. And I'm not even going to attempt to pose that theory in this forum!
Had Charlie not intervened Ansom would be dead. Would have died. Umm... Would have died sooner? You get my point. Ansom didn't seem to be doing well without the pliers and he wouldn't have had a prayer if Wanda with pliers stacked up with the doods on the wall. And point of fact Ansom did fall and those seem to have a decent chance of incapacitating units. (Which might as well be insta-death for Ansom.)
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Squishalot » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:25 pm

Lamech wrote:'
Oberon wrote:And yet, wasn't it Scarlet who predicted that they would soon see his body falling down? Clearly he was in some kind of danger, or Scarlet has no mind for tactical combat. And I'm not even going to attempt to pose that theory in this forum!
Had Charlie not intervened Ansom would be dead. Would have died. Umm... Would have died sooner? You get my point. Ansom didn't seem to be doing well without the pliers and he wouldn't have had a prayer if Wanda with pliers stacked up with the doods on the wall. And point of fact Ansom did fall and those seem to have a decent chance of incapacitating units. (Which might as well be insta-death for Ansom.)

As much as Oberon is arguing against my theory, I'm going to have to side with him on this one. Scarlet's view was that Ansom was going to be overrun, not sniped by an elite strike team such as Wanda's. Having said that, Scarlet had no knowledge of the leadership forces on the wall - it could well be that a low-mid level warlord (eg, L3-4) might have increased the attack stats of the Uncroaked by enough to actually pose a real threat to Ansom. If Wanda was there, it'd probably have been game over.

But your point is well made. Indeed, we did see Ansom's body falling down, in that fight.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby drachefly » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:36 pm

Squishalot wrote:That's only if a CWL hex bonus gets stacked on top of a normal WL bonus. But if that were the case, then Jillian's stack would be a lot more powerful than Caesar's stack, because they'd get her 9 AND his CWL 4-5, whereas his stack would only get his 9-10. That's the bit that stumps me about the idea of CWL stacking with WL bonuses.


As I said on the previous page, her 9 should give a bonus of 4.5*, not 9. Then we have no issues like that. We're explicitly told they stack. We're not explicitly told how much a regular warlord bonus is.

* I don't pretend to know how that's rounded.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Decorus » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:38 pm

There is another reason to split leadership up.
Troops are pretty much a mindless zerg without them.
While with leadership they can adjust to tactics in mid battle.
This is why Sizemore was so effective in the Warrens by croaking the leadership first, because he could command his golems to attack specific targets in a stack.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Oberon » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:07 pm

Squishalot wrote:As much as Oberon is arguing against my theory, I'm going to have to side with him on this one.
Meh, I'm not really arguing for or against any theory. As I've said previously, we simply do not know enough about how combat works to really judge the danger Ansom was in. As an Attack 33, he thought he could take an entire city solo. As the RCC version of Ansom (perhaps a 20 plus artifact bonus?), and only missing the decrypted bonus and stacking bonus, he was judged by Scarlet to be in danger against (admittedly a vast number of stacks of) the weakest sort of decroaked, even while equipped with the archenpliers which are anathema to that unit type. Who can know, with these scant facts?
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby valce » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:04 am

Oberon wrote:
Squishalot wrote:As much as Oberon is arguing against my theory, I'm going to have to side with him on this one.
Meh, I'm not really arguing for or against any theory. As I've said previously, we simply do not know enough about how combat works to really judge the danger Ansom was in. As an Attack 33, he thought he could take an entire city solo. As the RCC version of Ansom (perhaps a 20 plus artifact bonus?), and only missing the decrypted bonus and stacking bonus, he was judged by Scarlet to be in danger against (admittedly a vast number of stacks of) the weakest sort of decroaked, even while equipped with the archenpliers which are anathema to that unit type. Who can know, with these scant facts?


Point of order: The city in question that Attack 33 Ansom could take was severely understaffed by low-level infantry with average attack of "three, or even two".

Which is to say, I agree that there are insufficient data to figure out how combat really 'works'.


also, in case anybody else wanted to see the 33-Attack update:
http://www.erfworld.com/2009/09/summer-updates-033/
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby suryasm » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:31 am

Well, I still think multiple warlords stack, only not at 100%. Which means only a side as rich in Nobles as Jetstone can actually afford to stick multiple Warlords in the same stack.

Also, people keep referring to how Jillian can take out dwagons, but note: 1) She was mounted (with all the bonuses that imply) and 2) She was applying her +9 bonus to herself. Take away those two and her buster sword, and you've probably got someone who is, at best, knight-class infantry. Most likely lower.

All this talk of stacking, though, brings me to my concept of the Gobwin Knob Ultimate Command(o) Stack, the single stack which can tear its way through any opposition.

GKUCS Mark 1:
Wanda
Jack
Adam Antium
Sylvia
Archer
FUD
Nameless heavy hobbo
Uncroaked armored red dwagon

And, if you are a fan of the Hamster, the GKUCS Mark 2:
Parson, Lord Hamster
Sizemore
Maggie
Sylivia
Archer
FUD
Nameless hobbo
Sizemore's best Heavy Metal Golem

If you ask "why not replace the nameless units with Wanda and Jack", its because then the stack would be too heavy on squishy casters, and not heavy enough on the up-in-your-grill face-smashing which is the trademark of a true commando team.

Sadly, none of this is likely to come about, because unlike Jetstone, GK does not have the luxury of stacking multiple warlords, bonuses notwithstanding.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby GaryThunder » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:44 am

I dunno about that. Fud, as L2 heavy, was able to kill a L1 warlord and his 4 (presumably all L1) infantry after presumably taking some falling damage and presumably some damage from fighting the stack of 10 (presumably all L1) with his very wounded dwagon. Luck and plot can always play in to the numbers of course, but it just doesn't seem likely that a warlord is physically tougher than a heavy hobgobwin. And now I will presumably take a sabbatical from using the word presumably, presumably.


I don't think that Fud started off as Level 1. Wanda's only got sixty or so spots in her battlegroup for mounting dwagon riders. She's not going to waste valuable space with a dinky Level 1 non-heavy Hobgobwin when she's got warlords and knights and higher-level units to pick from. I think he was just close to leveling already and happened to roll over during the fight. Maybe he's getting, I don't know, bonus XP for the ridiculous crap he's pulling?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Pointyleaf » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:03 am

Oberon wrote: And then refer to the value of the "assets" currently in the Social Security Trust Fund. Here's an interesting fact: Those "assets" are valued at exactly nothing. What is your concept of a trust fund?


Hmm. I was just reading along, looking forward to posting my idea about stack bonuses (+1 for every doubling in number, until someone else posted the idea first), but I decided to comment on this. The SS Trust Fund is made up of US Treasuries. Are these worthless? (Signs point to 'no', given how many of them the Chinese have been buying, and at retail value, too.) Honestly, if US Treasuries become worthless, the dollar is also worthless.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby effataigus » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:08 am

Probably good roleplay xp from the insights into hobgobwin culture and for inspiring the invention of the verb "hobgobbed."
Last edited by effataigus on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 am, edited 239044 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby multilis » Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:19 am

"That's the bit that stumps me about the idea of CWL stacking with WL bonuses"

Caeser's stack gets
WL bonus: Caeser (10?)
CWL bonus: Caeser (5?)

Jillians stack gets
WL bonus: Jillian (9?)
CWL bonus: Caeser (5?)

The big difference is Caeser has many times more units/bats each getting the bonus so while Jillian may 2x increase her stacks strength, Caeser may 5x increase his wimpy bats.

Weak unit types on downside would be more vulnerable to things that make them weaker, such as "poison, cursed, vertigo", etc, and more likley to be unable to hurt enemies with super defense. We have already seen Ansom and later the Golems mow down lots of weak GK units without taking much damage.

Weak units can swarm (outnumber/surround) if they can all attack same enemy at same time, bats being able to fly and probably go in caves are probably one of the most useful units (if you have lots of warlords to give them enough bonus) as able to swarm any type of enemy. Swarm in games I know either means target loses some abillity to fight back, or swarming attacker gets damage bonus when hitting from behind.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby kagato23 » Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:51 am

Smoker wrote:Kagato23, I think you have explained this the best so far, and your observations and theory on CWL Stack being weak are very slick.

If anyone is still unsure on this topic, I suggest you re-read Kagato's posts. :D


Hey, thanks smoker. It's nice to know somebody was actually reading my long, drawn out posts. :D (And even liked them!)


Squishalot wrote:That's only if a CWL hex bonus gets stacked on top of a normal WL bonus. But if that were the case, then Jillian's stack would be a lot more powerful than Caesar's stack, because they'd get her 9 AND his CWL 4-5, whereas his stack would only get his 9-10. That's the bit that stumps me about the idea of CWL stacking with WL bonuses.


Already been said, but Jillian is not a chief warlord. Caesar is, and I'm pretty sure they do stack. I actually hadn't thought about this aspect of it before, but, if you don't mind, I'd like to use this factoid to argue my own theories. I think the way Vinny described the bonus' on that page is telling. Now we know from that one that Caesar has the baddest bat-stack in the group. Now, the way Translvito works, I doubt any of it's warlords are especially weak, so again, if Warlords gave their full bonus to their stacks like CWL do, one would assume that it'd be their best subordinate guy attacking the main stack, and not Caesar! Which I think reinforces the assumption that Warlords don't give full bonus, but something like .5 or less. Which is why Jillian is the second wave after Stanley has at least taken a few hits and not the one charging in. Considering Caesar's dislike of Jillian, he'd have had no problem putting her in front, which, considering her dislike of Stanley, she'd probably have been arguing FOR if she really would have by and far the strongest stack. So I'm thinking Caesar thought he had the best shot of anybody in the hex (and was probably right), and that Jillian, as the second strongest, made the better runner up.

It'd be great if we'd seen more of Parson using those glasses of his, (especially when Ansom was first Decrypted) we would probably have been able to determine with certainty most of the things we've speculated on.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby Ditto » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:03 am

Not that it's in any way definite, but I believe Jillian *was* CWL all through tBfGK and until she reclaimed Faq-the-city and popped her own CWL. When Banhammer died and his cities fell, continued to be the leader of a very tiny barbarian side. She was CWL at that point for her side (probably, yes?), and having your king croaked shouldn't remove that bonus. Faq-the-side never fell, like Spacerock-the-side did. As long as you have royal/overlord/heir leadership alive and kicking, you're still going.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby ScegfOd » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:52 am

Ya know, I've been thinking about the whole leadership bonus thing, does it actually say anywhere exactly how leadership is calculated? I couldn't find it. But Stanley did heavily imply that there was a reason besides level to choose a warlord:

I think all we have for leadership bonuses are vague references as well as a few hard numbers, but how do we know how you get leadership bonuses from other unit stats??
It might even be its own value, like combat or hit points, and therefore is correlated to level but may or may not be directly proportional through basic mathamancy.

One other thing, how do we know that leadership doesn't stack like so:
leadership bonus from CWL: +3 for him being awesome, additional +2 for being in the same hex, and an additional +5 for being in the same stack (+3, +5, +10). And less charismatic leaders could give less than half their level to the stack and no other bonuses?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby drachefly » Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:02 pm

Infantryman out in the far side of the kingdom: Oh, my bonus just dropped. I guess the CWL just took off his awesome sunglasses.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:33 pm

ScegfOd wrote:Ya know, I've been thinking about the whole leadership bonus thing, does it actually say anywhere exactly how leadership is calculated? I couldn't find it. But Stanley did heavily imply that there was a reason besides level to choose a warlord:




Wanda wrote:"I did not say it was a stupid idea, Lord. But the strategic advantage of equipping infantry with scary hand puppets is lost on me."



I'm not sure Stanley has a good grip on what would be a good idea as a use for his troops and I would refrain from using his judgement to make a point... most of the time anyway.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby mortissimus » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:12 pm

drachefly wrote:* I don't pretend to know how that's rounded.


I think it is pretty safe to guess that it bonuses are rounded down, given this:

His leadership would add three attack to all units on his side, five to those in his hex, and ten to those in his own stack. His mistress would add one to all Decrypted troops on her side, four to those in her hex, and eight to those in her stack.


From http://www.erfworld.com/2009/09/summer-updates-033/

3/5/10 correlates to 10/1, 10/2 and 10/3, rounded, and 1/4/8 to 8/1, 8/2 and 8/3, rounded down. So I think we have enough indication that the game engine rounds down.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 039

Postby ScegfOd » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:21 pm

since when does 8/3=2.6bar round down below 2?
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