Book 2 – Page 51

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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Shusagi » Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:17 am

If Charlie could teleport his Archons, why would he leave them at hotspots rather than keep them all in his city and just teleport them out when needed?
I agree that it's not impossible that they can teleport since we haven't been told they can't, but every bit of evidence we've seen has suggested that they don't. For instance, Parson would've mentioned it because the archons would've told him. From a literary perspective, an author wouldn't leave that out for fear of just making it up on the spot later. We've been told they're left at "hotspots" close to the action; why bother with this if they can just teleport?


I realize that none of those DISPROVES that they teleport, but they all SUPPORT that they don't teleport, and there's absolutely nothing supporting that they do. It's about as sound as suggesting that Stanley is actually a future version of Parson who has lost his memories and become physically mutated by a Changemancer as punishment for using the magic kingdom for war. I mean, nothing so far has disproved that, but there's no reason to suggest it.

Extraordinary claims (Archons can teleport!) require extraordinary evidence, of which there is none.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby drachefly » Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:22 am

Oberon wrote:
oslecamo2 wrote:3-Finally, the decrypted archons say NOTHING about any teleportation. They tell important numbers, Charlie's location and defenses, but they say nothing that archons can teleport around.
They do not have that capability. Charlie/arkendish does. I think that it is pretty clear that either the archons were not entirely forthcoming or for purposes of plot Parson was too intimidated by all those tiny playboy bunnies to spend enough time, er, pumping them for information as we could have expected him to do.

This is the one thing I just don't see. I really doubt this would have not come up. Even with what you've said. PGLH got a pretty good picture of how things worked.

Oberon wrote:
oslecamo2 wrote:4-Hamster also never mentions it. If Charlie could teleport, Hamster certainly would've at least spent some comic-time thinking about the implications, because he was present when the Archons "popped"
Who? Hamstard, the little devil on Parson shoulder? You don't get original thought out of your imaginary friend...


LORD HAMSTER. You know, quasi-hero protagonist?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Beeskee » Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:31 am

If you look at the base of the cliff they are camped on it looks like forested area down there. Also the sun is just rising so everything is shaded differently than the next panel where they are arriving, by whatever means. I still think they just flew, sorry. :)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby oslecamo2 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:36 pm

Oberon wrote:
oslecamo2 wrote:There's a lot of stuff that could be satisfied by teleportation in a static-panel comic.
Many or most of the panels in which we see archons moving, it is clear that they are moving. This first appearance gives no indication of movement, just hovering in place. Not proof of anything, but as I've said it sure gave me the impression that they just appeared.

Apeared from a veil that was broken as they entered the city.

Foolmancy is that harder the closer you're to your oponent. That's why the Haggar archons burned so much juice, as they were just side by side with a LOT of warlords all making spot checks. That's why Vinny had to drop to the ground and touch the fake dwagon to realize Stanley had escaped his trap.

Veiling in an empty hex in the middle of nowhere, much easier.

Oberon wrote:
oslecamo2 wrote:1-During book 1 Charlie at no moment just teleports inside GK's Garrison (instead of the undefended airspace), takes Hamster's gauntlet and calls it a day.
Not being able to teleport into a city, this would be a reasonable limitation on the power to teleport your units. The rest of your point 1 and point 2 and the "pass through GK territory" discussion is covered by the "can transmit only" highly plausible limitation.

So there's teleporting, but with a bunch of random limitations? Not very likely if you ask me. Rules in Erfworld are relatively simple, and the teleport you're defending just gets more and more complicated.

Oberon wrote:
oslecamo2 wrote:3-Finally, the decrypted archons say NOTHING about any teleportation. They tell important numbers, Charlie's location and defenses, but they say nothing that archons can teleport around.
They do not have that capability. Charlie/arkendish does.

The arkendish, a thinkmancy artifact, grants one-way teleportation with more clauses than any of Charlie's contracts? Really? :?

Oberon wrote: I think that it is pretty clear that either the archons were not entirely forthcoming or for purposes of plot Parson was too intimidated by all those tiny playboy bunnies to spend enough time, er, pumping them for information as we could have expected him to do.

Decrypted have unquestionable loyalty to their new side.

Oberon wrote:
oslecamo2 wrote:4-Hamster also never mentions it. If Charlie could teleport, Hamster certainly would've at least spent some comic-time thinking about the implications, because he was present when the Archons "popped"
Who? Hamstard, the little devil on Parson shoulder? You don't get original thought out of your imaginary friend...

Perhaps you missed Stanley crowning Parson as LORD HAMSTER, DESTROYER OF RULES!

Oberon wrote:
oslecamo2 wrote:In short, it can all be explained with archons veiling powers. And we've confirmed several times archons have natural veiling powers. We have not a single character stating that archons can teleport, including but not limited to the archons themselves when under carefull Hamster interrogation.
Not so careful, as supported by the strip. Parson was intimidated, and this may have overcome his natural inclination to collect as much intel as he could. Also, the archons themselves treated their relationship with Parson as if he were a "full services" customer of Charlie. This "full service" may easily be limited to sex and unthinking charges into certain death, as was described about most contracts with those terms. It almost certainly does not include "tell the guy who is going to rape you and then send you to die as many of my secrets as you might know."

The supreme contract does include that the archons are to treat their hiring side as if their duty and loyalty was to them, including going against Charlie himself.

Oberon wrote:Additionally, only archons with the foolamancy special can veil. And this strongly appears to be a single target effect, as outlined in the strip with the archons spying on the Haggar forces:
Book 2 Text 18 wrote:Lindsay and Paris ended turn at the head of the column, Miley and Brittany at the rear. Hilary and her partner Avril took up a risky blind, directly over the heads of Prince Sammy's leadership stack. They kept the rising sun at their backs, relative to the warlords, and spent most of their juice to shine out their shadows. It was tricky, but worth it.
They spent most of their juice. Not one foolamancer capable archon keeping the entire stack veiled. And it nearly drained each one just to veil themselves.

Again, because they were at point-blank range and had to beat the spot checks of a lot of warlords. They wanted to listen to their conversations, and thus burned extra juice to get near enough to spy for Charlie. It wasn't a battle group, but a spying group, thus Charlie sent foolmancy-specialized archons.

Oberon wrote:It's vaguely plausible that Charlie had 80ish archons within a single turn's flight of GK. Vaguely, but not logically.

You know, you still have to explain from where you're geting that number. I would estimate at best some dozen archons from the pictures. No way there was 80 archons at the final showdown.

Oberon wrote: As discussed before, he had only managed to hire out three archons to the RCC previously, and those were a love gift of Ansom looking out for Jillian, and not really needed otherwise. Charlie had been turned down by the RCC on a second contract. Charlie could hardly have imagined that Ansom would try to assault the uncroaked on the walls alone and get into a position where he was forced into hiring more archons, that was a stupid maneuver. And the RCC had a 25:1 advantage, and the remainder of their siege was only a single turn away. They needed no help, there is no logic present in any expectation of Charlie to hire out more archons to the RCC, and there were surely profits to be made elsewhere.

Charlie expected Stanley to have a change of mind and recruit the archons, as he was cornered, short of options, and with a deep wallet. The perfect client. Except that Wanda then presented the Perfect Warlord alternative.

Oberon wrote:But for the sake of argument, Charlie had 80ish archons within a single turn's flight of GK. And they all had the foolamancy special? Really, now Charlie is just bat-crazy-prepared... It is simply implausible to me to consider that of Charlie's 600 archons that he had 80ish foolamancy capable units within a single turn's flight of GK. For why? It makes no sense. Even if Charlie illogically for reasons explained above expected to be able to hire out more archons to the RCC, he didn't need to concentrate many/all of the foolamancy capable ones near GK. The RCC knew he was a potential mercenary for them, and GK knew he was a potential mercenary against them. No veiling required under these circumstances. So, why?

Here's why:
1-They definetely were less than 80 archons, so not that much of an investment.
2-Charlie expected Stanley to break in and hire him. Or perhaps a third side may appear and try to profit from the whole situation. Either way, Charlie needs to keep his force secret untill somebody is willing to pay him.
3-Considering they were hiding in the middle of a mountain in the middle of nowhere, only a few foolmancy-able archons are needed to veil the group, compared to archons sharing the same space as an enemy army. Completely diferent situations. Hiding in isolated mountains is easy (Vinny says they would never find Stanley in the wild while he could afford a master foolmancer), hiding in an open road when the enemy is literally standing next to you (Haggar's situation) is much more juice-intensive.



Oberon wrote:Let me be clear: I'm not claiming that this is a done deal, proven and unassailable. It isn't. We have only speculation to kick around the forums, not hard supporting facts. It is my belief that this capability makes sense, based upon what I believe are logical facts and observations. But only in a hypothetical sense. I'm not claiming that it must be so. It could be revealed to be wrong, and I'd be ok with that. But if so, I'd like to have some of the illogical circumstances for the case where Charlie does not have this ability explained in better detail. I just don't see much in the way of alternative logical explanations that work with the information currently available which makes any sense. The ability for the arkendish to teleport units, at least from Charlie's sole city, does make that sense, given the other details.

It doesn't really. It's a thinkmancy artifact for starters, so teleportation makes no sense, and then you have to put a lot of random clauses to explain why Charlie just doesn't go "Scry and Die b****!". As for your other details were just explained. Charlie did not have 80sh archons at all deployed near GK, he hoped Stanley would hire them out of desesperation, not the RCC, so he had to keep them veiled for some time, and hiding in the middle of nowhere is much cheaper than hiding in the middle of your enemy.

And for Hamster to don't extract such a piece of valuable information from the brainwashed archons just because they were wearing bunny suits... That's simply ridiculous. Hamster knows how dangerous Charlie is, had Maggie backing him up, and thus definetely extracted every piece of information from their decrypted archons as possible.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby ftl » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:40 pm

One more thing - archons which are standing by don't necessarily need to keep themselves veiled. It might make sense to keep them hidden by non-magical means.

If they're far enough from the main enemy - say, 2/3 of a turn's worth of move - then they might not need to hide at all. If nobody sends scouts there, then there's never an issue. If a scout unit does pass through, then maybe archons can hide through non-magical means. They're fairly small units, they can fly so they can hide in the trees or brush or something. A single archon or a group of three or four could do that, though a large army of 30 couldn't. Maybe have a single archon with foolamancy in a more visible area as a lookout to tell the others to either duck under the trees or hover near the treetops, depending on the scout unit.

As long as, within about a turn's distance of the action, there's a smattering of hard-to-reach hill or mountain or forest hexes where the large army with siege is unlikely to go, this could work fine.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Afjord » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:32 am

oslecamo2 wrote:And for Hamster to don't extract such a piece of valuable information from the brainwashed archons just because they were wearing bunny suits... That's simply ridiculous. Hamster knows how dangerous Charlie is, had Maggie backing him up, and thus definetely extracted every piece of information from their decrypted archons as possible.


He didn't ask. Parson had no incentive to believe, that Charlie has any means of teleportation, and the Archons wouldn't give up the information volountarily. They are just made that way. Think of Charlies rules, the only Archon who willingly gave up valuable information, so far anyway, was Jaclyn, and she was croaked a day before the grand battle.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Oberon » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:20 pm

drachefly wrote:LORD HAMSTER. You know, quasi-hero protagonist?
Oh, right. The guy who doesn't know about this capability. How silly of me not to consider him in deep thought about something he knows nothing about.
oslecamo2 wrote:Foolmancy is that harder the closer you're to your oponent. That's why the Haggar archons burned so much juice, as they were just side by side with a LOT of warlords all making spot checks. That's why Vinny had to drop to the ground and touch the fake dwagon to realize Stanley had escaped his trap.

Veiling in an empty hex in the middle of nowhere, much easier.
I just love it how anyone else's harebrained speculations are all "No whay!", but your own harebrained, completely unsupported speculations about foolamancy you just pass off as if they were completely known and accepted facts. Or do you have any kind of canon that supports anything you just cited about foolamancy and the relative difficulty or juice cost of anything, anything at all?
oslecamo2 wrote:And for Hamster to don't extract such a piece of valuable information from the brainwashed archons just because they were wearing bunny suits... That's simply ridiculous. Hamster knows how dangerous Charlie is, had Maggie backing him up, and thus definetely extracted every piece of information from their decrypted archons as possible.
And this just proves that you'd rather believe what you want, even if it makes a certain amount of logical sense, rather than believing what the comic tells you. Parson was completely out of his element with the archons, and this was described in full, loving detail. Remember "Hummina"? Sure, Parson would under normal circumstances try to extract all the information he could, but with little playboy bunnies his discomfort overrides his logic and reason. And if you read the strip instead of re-writing it in your own mind you would have known that.
oslecamo2 wrote:Charlie expected Stanley to have a change of mind and recruit the archons, as he was cornered, short of options, and with a deep wallet. The perfect client. Except that Wanda then presented the Perfect Warlord alternative.
More fabricated BS. Stanley has never mentioned Charlie at all. Wanda (or was it Maggie?) tells Parson that Stanley hates Charlie. Charlie never mentions Stanley at all. And yet you're claiming that Charlie expected to be hired by a guy who hates him? Can you provide any single panel from the strip which even suggests that this was in either of their plans? Now, Parson might have tried to hire Charlie. Oh wait, he did. And Charlie's reply? It basically went "I can't be seen to be switching sides in the middle of the conflict, it'd destroy my reputation." So once the RCC hired 3 archons the other 80 were either going to be hired by the RCC, who didn't need them with 25:1 odds, or not be hired.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Afjord » Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:22 am

Where does this 80 archon thing come from? I count 28 archons, and Wanda decrypts 28 archons, so it's fairly likely that there only IS 28 archons. That's still a lot, but not too many, when you think about it. It is called the Great Western conflict for a reason. It's propable that every side west/south-west of Charlie (atleast in close proximity to him) is involved in this war in one way or another, and it is also highly propable that it's currently the single largest war in reasonable reach of Charlescomm. Charlie doesn't necessarily know that Stanley wouldn't hire him, and even if he did, he contacted PG severel turns before the airforce intrusion.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Oberon » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:09 am

Afjord wrote:Charlie doesn't necessarily know that Stanley wouldn't hire him, and even if he did, he contacted PG severel turns before the airforce intrusion.
Not only does Charlie completely know that Stanley wouldn't hire him due to Stanley's hatred of Charie, but Charlie himself replied to Parson's attempt to hire him with "Switching sides in the middle of this or any conflict would damage my reputation too much." How hard is this to accept? It is canon and fully supported by the comic strip.

Simply put, there is no logical reason that Charlie would have kept huge numbers of archon forces near GK. He could not have hoped to have them hired out. The RCC did not need, with their 25:1 advantage, any assistance at all, and GK could not hire any of Charlie's archons, according to Charlie's own reasoning. So why were there enough archon forces within a single turn's flight to take out the GK garrison? There is no logical reason for this, at all. The only thing which makes sense is that the arkendish is capable of teleporting archons from Charlie's city to points out in the field.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Afjord » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:55 am

Oberon wrote:
Afjord wrote:Charlie doesn't necessarily know that Stanley wouldn't hire him, and even if he did, he contacted PG severel turns before the airforce intrusion.
Not only does Charlie completely know that Stanley wouldn't hire him due to Stanley's hatred of Charie, but Charlie himself replied to Parson's attempt to hire him with "Switching sides in the middle of this or any conflict would damage my reputation too much." How hard is this to accept? It is canon and fully supported by the comic strip.

Simply put, there is no logical reason that Charlie would have kept huge numbers of archon forces near GK. He could not have hoped to have them hired out. The RCC did not need, with their 25:1 advantage, any assistance at all, and GK could not hire any of Charlie's archons, according to Charlie's own reasoning. So why were there enough archon forces within a single turn's flight to take out the GK garrison? There is no logical reason for this, at all. The only thing which makes sense is that the arkendish is capable of teleporting archons from Charlie's city to points out in the field.


Are you just reading what you want to read?
1. Charlie doesn't necessarily know that Stanley won't hire him. There is not a single place in canon where it states that Stanley and Charlie have been in contact with each other.
2. 28 (+3 = 31) archons on hold near the presumably largest conflict near Charlie is not much, actually that's actually unbelievable few archons.
3. Charlie is relatively close to GK and the other sides involved in "The Great Western Conflict"
4. Charlie always makes sure that he is in a no-lose situation. Letting GK hire his archons at the time PG calls him, wouldn't be in his favor. Even with, say 28 archons, GK would have had a very hard time winning.


Conclusion: It's is completely believable that Charlie would have had under 10% of his avaible forces within reach of GK, seeing as it is the single largest fight west for him, actually it's ignoring Canon to say that it doesn't make sense. Where the eck should he sell his services if not to the only people near him who's fighting?

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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby drachefly » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:25 pm

Oberon wrote:
drachefly wrote:LORD HAMSTER. You know, quasi-hero protagonist?
Oh, right. The guy who doesn't know about this capability. How silly of me not to consider him in deep thought about something he knows nothing about.


Yet this was clearly the character referred to.

I'm not sure about whatever this idea of Parson being present at the abrupt arrival of the archons was - I thought that happened away from GK.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 51

Postby Oberon » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:10 pm

drachefly wrote:I'm not sure about whatever this idea of Parson being present at the abrupt arrival of the archons was - I thought that happened away from GK.
It did, which was why it was not clear which character was being referred to.
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