Durinix wrote:On a different aspect, I can't wait to see Parson level.
I don't think he even noticed when he leveled the first time. He only learned it from his breakfast.
BLANDCorporatio wrote:My take on it is that there's a whole thread about it elsewhere and it's better served at that place. Though other people have said, are saying, and will say what I'd say on the topic.
ftl wrote:Oberon wrote:And if you cannot see this, you are also holding the Idiot Ball.
Gee, thanks for keeping the discussion civil, oberon, by calling us all idiots.
Smoker wrote:Oh hey! I gotta good one! Who wants to argue over the terms that GK would have accepted, rather than risk the exploit?
I'll put it out there, and say that I think Parson would have given up Wanda and the 'pliers.
Why? Because Wanda's loyalty stat is almost in the negative - if she could convince (or even suggest maybe) Slately that she could rebuild Jetstone using the 'pliers, then she can hang around long enough for GK to return with more forces, and she can turn back. We know she would because she a) loves parson and b) wants to be on the same side as another tool. They dont even have to breach non-agression - a unit voluntarily turning isn't an act of aggression.
It's also possible to form the Alliance with the bazillion Shmucker penalty first, then tell Wanda to turn to Jetstone so she can be disbanded. As long as she turns back before Slately finishes his assumed "You are doubleplus-bad and I shall now smite thee!" act, then Jetstone cant attack her without sending themselves into negative finances, and therefore they will all disband the next turn. She could just walk right out of there, and Jetstone couldn't touch her.
It'd be risky, because they might cap her anyway, but would it be worse odds than dropping her from the airspace?
(should that actually be doubleplus-ungood? I cant recall..)
Smoker wrote:should that actually be doubleplus-ungood? I cant recall..
effataigus wrote:By way of weird hypothetical questions...
If Parson were forced to choose between Wanda dying and Wanda switching to JS (with the assumption that she is then Turnamancered into behaving like a JS unit), which choice would he make?
I'm really not sure. He seems fond of Wanda and adverse to death, but it would definitely be a huge threat to GK for JS to have Wanda on their side... well, ok, I have my doubts that JS wouldn't just kill her as an abomination, but if perhaps they traded her to TV...
Would be an interesting test of how strong Parson's help-GK compulsion is.
ftl wrote:Gee, thanks for keeping the discussion civil, oberon, by calling us all idiots.
rkyeun wrote:Roses are red.
Violets are blue.
zilfallon wrote:ftl wrote:Gee, thanks for keeping the discussion civil, oberon, by calling us all idiots.
I'd have agreed with you, IF "holding the idiot ball" was equal to "being an idiot"
Smoker wrote:It'd be risky, because they might cap her anyway, but would it be worse odds than dropping her from the airspace?
Ansan Gotti wrote:zilfallon wrote:ftl wrote:Gee, thanks for keeping the discussion civil, oberon, by calling us all idiots.
I'd have agreed with you, IF "holding the idiot ball" was equal to "being an idiot"
Oh come on, zilfallon. If you accuse a debate opponent of holding the idiot ball, you are effectively accusing them of being an idiot. That insult put me over the edge on the foe list issue. Please don't defend bad behavior like that.
Oberon wrote:ryanroyce wrote:Eh, there are several logical explanations for why Tram wasn't attacked by the yellows on his way through the Atrium, not the least of which being that, at the time, GK's forces had no idea who Jetstone's new CWL was. For all they knew, the new CWL was already in the tower with Slately. Coming close behind, maybe it simply didn't occur to GK that they could have attacked Tram on his return until it was too late to do so (after all, it didn't occur to Tram at first, either). Third, there's also the chance that GK thought that even the meager offerings of a traditional Royal Parley would be the best they could hope for. All of these conclusions are a more logical than thinking that Gobwin Knob was planning to conquer Spacerock off-turn.
First, GK had met Tram. They knew he was a Jetstone prince. Assuming that some unknown in the tower was now the Jetstone CWL is an illogical position. If Tram can look up and recognize the danger the yellows pose, surely the GK forces can look down and see the prince of Jetstone arriving in his Roo transport... Second, taking the position that GK didn't see an opportunity to attack is assuming that your opponent is a fool. This is not the thought processes of a smart diplomat. You need to assume that your opponent is as well aware of his options as you are, or you will constantly be surprised by his actions. Third, never assume that your opponent only hopes in desperation for your tender mercies. This is the thinking of a fool, and one who will be constantly surprised by the logical actions of your opponent which you ignore in favor of your own illogical assumptions.
Oberon wrote:I'm amused that you would decide to phrase it so, when I took great pains to describe the exact situation you now insist that I "continue to ignore." Why stand up such a weak straw man?ryanroyce wrote:Do not continue to ignore the fact that, in the eyes of everyone except Parson and Charlie (Jillian, Duncan, Jack, etc), GK was DOOMED.
Oberon wrote:Wrong. The logic in such an attack was described by Tram himself: Do what you can, while you can. There is no reason to lose units which can better be lost while dealing damage to the enemy. And this is the attack option Tram needed to recognize and prevent. He wants to engage in dialogue, right? This is made clear. And to best engage in dialogue, it is best to avoid open conflict. This is simpleton logic that any smart diplomat should be able to arrive at with ease.ryanroyce wrote:Furthermore, there was no logic to Parson's yellows cwapping all over the Atrium without the Banana Exploit and the Harvest Exploit to combo with it.
Oberon wrote:ryanroyce wrote:I don't hesitate to point out that ABSOLUTELY NO ONE on this forum predicted either Exploit [...]
I'll repeat, not that you'll listen, that Tram's reactions were completely idiotic even, and as I took pains to point out, in the strict light of what he knew, and in no sense did this judgement involve the 4th wall or reader knowledge.
Oberon wrote:ryanroyce wrote:How could Tramennis have possibly predicted that insulting Ossomer's fashion sense would precipitate these Exploits and the Doom of his Capital?
Tram has all the information he needed to predict that Parson would, no, should, attack once Tram communicated his adherence to the royal strategy of insult, then attack. This is the entire reason he is holding the idiot ball! He wanted to parley with Parson, and instead he instigated a conflict which may have made any parley impossible.
Oberon wrote:And if you cannot see this, you are also holding the Idiot Ball.
ryanroyce wrote:My point is that even we, who have the most complete intel on Parson, did not see the Banana Exploit or the Harvest Exploit coming. We had months to think it over, too, as opposed to a few hours at most. Why should Tramennis, who had even less intel than us, have seen these Exploits coming?
nth wrote:Smoker wrote:It'd be risky, because they might cap her anyway, but would it be worse odds than dropping her from the airspace?
Actually, I'm not sure it would be risky at all.
Consider: if Wanda switched side to Jetstone, wouldn't it technically be her side's turn again? Would that mean she would have gotten her move back?
The reasonable one is 3. Of course Tram is going to be the new chief warlord. Its Jetstone and they appoint royals. For crying out loud Tram assumes that the newly popped royal with 0 combat experience will be placed as chief warlord against a terribly powerful foe when Jetstone is in dire straits. And two is absurd because that assumes that GK is completely brain dead; they have multiple competent warlords, and indeed Tram saw their tactical knowledge when his brother was nabbed. Four is unreasonable; conquering Jetstone off-turn is unreasonable for various reason...ryanroyce wrote:1. GK didn't attack Tram because it didn't know that Tramennis was the new CWL.
2. GK didn't attack Tram because it didn't think to attack Tram with yellows until it was too late.
3. GK didn't attack Tram because it want to waste its only chance of having ANY units survive.
4. GK didn't attack Tram because it was planning to conquer Spacerock off-turn.
It isn't a straw man. I have been reading your posts over the course of several Reactions threads. You insist that Tramennis, a rusty warlord at best, should have come to a better tactical conclusion than far more experienced warlords like Jillian or Duncan. That is absurd.
No Jetstone's loss pretty much completely means GK's gain. They are at war. Jetstone has no significant allies, Haggar is a backstabber, Jillian abandoned them, and blue Translovito needs food badly. If every less unit Jetstone has is one less GK needs to kill.OK, I'll keep this simple. Let's assume a scenario where the physics of Erfworld permitted neither the Banana Exploit nor the Harvest Exploit. What meaningful gain would Parson achieve by cwapping all over the Atrium? Keep in mind that Jetstone's loss does not equal Parson's gain.
No we saw it coming as soon as we learned one could fall I'm pretty sure. In fact I'm pretty sure its what nearly everyone concluded as soon as we say the title raining men. Obviously we didn't know that Parson could stick heavies on the dwagon until we learned he could promote hobgobs, or harvest dwagons until we learned about harvesting. But as soon as we learned of them they got added in.Irrelevant. My point is that even we, who have the most complete intel on Parson, did not see the Banana Exploit or the Harvest Exploit coming. We had months to think it over, too, as opposed to a few hours at most. Why should Tramennis, who had even less intel than us, have seen these Exploits coming?
IOW, Spacerock is in danger solely because of these Exploits that none of us saw coming.
Sure no one thought GK was anything but doomed. But pretty much everyone concluded that they could attack and do some damage. And of course since the sides are at war GK would gain from Jetstone's loss. And after GK attacked Jetstone would lose bargaining power and lose units. The side wouldn't fall from it, and the dwagons wouldn't be saved, but Jetstone would sustain damage it can ill afford to lose. We aren't saying Tram should have worried about Jetstone's defeat. We are saying he should have realized that GK would attack and it would have cost Jetstone units and bargaining power.Again, I repeat that everyone who didn't know Parson's plan believed that GK was Doomed and Helpless. Without the Banana Exploit or the Harvest Exploit, they would have been. Why should Tram have come to a different conclusion?
Ansan Gotti wrote:ryanroyce wrote:My point is that even we, who have the most complete intel on Parson, did not see the Banana Exploit or the Harvest Exploit coming. We had months to think it over, too, as opposed to a few hours at most. Why should Tramennis, who had even less intel than us, have seen these Exploits coming?
This is a good and often glossed-over point, I believe. We all knew SOMETHING was coming, but unless I missed it, no one called (or consistently called) "promote to heavy" or "harvest for food" as the answers.
It reminds me of the dwagon veil at the battle of the pass with Transylvito. The big, dwagon-shaped cloud of bats was right in front of our eyes, but no one saw it until afterwards. It's things like this which make this a brilliant webcomic.
effataigus wrote:On this point I strongly disagree... several people had suggested killing and overloading the dwagons to get to ground. Very common suggestions in fact. To the extent that the specifics were not guessed, that can be attributed to the fact that we had less information than Parson and other warlords on this account. We didn't know the mechanics of harvesting or that hobgobwins could be promoted to heavy until the strip in which we learned that they were the mechanics to be used.
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