Why don't we know more units' levels?

[GaryThunder]

I understand that Rob is probably making an effort to not mention too many numbers in the comic, for fear that people will start doing too much math and complaining that story results were inaccurate or similar, but I think that the level of certain characters is an important part of their personality and their presentation.

Rob's clearly not afraid to show us the level of main characters. Parson and Ansom, directly. Wanda and Jillian, indirectly (by revealing their leadership/caster bonuses). And he's hinted at the levels of many others. I just see level, in Erfworld, as being as much of a character's bearing and, sort of, station as any social aspect they may enjoy. In Erfworld, even a relatively dumb unit is treated very highly and given much authority if that unit is a high level. (See, Ossomer. Yeah, I know, it's because he was a Royal. But you can't tell me his massive leadership bonus didn't factor into his CW assignment.) Granted, high level units tend not to be dumb in the first place...but that might just be natural selection, in that all the dumb units die in their first few levels and only the serious badasses like Ansom, Caesar, Jillian, Wanda, and Ossomer get into the higher levels.

Why don't we know Jack's level? Why wasn't it in his stat block? It wasn't in Bogroll's either - how exactly does Parson know what level his units are? We know he can tell with the glasses, Wanda said as much shortly after Decrypting Ansom. "You can see: he is a Warlord. And Level 10, as he was before." Or Caesar's level? Or Tramennis's? Or Stanley's? Stanley has to have a decent bonus, he was CW for Saline.

I feel like we would get a better understanding of several characters if we knew their level. Just sayin'.

[Smoker]

This doesn't address your question at all, but in relation to the stat block, I always imagined it as having multiple pages. Level, upkeep, leadership bonuses, rank - can all be hidden on pages 2 and beyond.

[mortissimus]

Parson: "Oh, that is how you change pages!"

And suddenly all was clear.

[Shusagi]

We know it's possible to see WHEN a unit levels (Maggie notes that Bogroll levels twice after croaking Ansom), but that could be something to do with.. Maybe noticing their stats increase twice, or something.

...Wanda said as much shortly after Decrypting Ansom. "You can see: he is a Warlord. And Level 10, as he was before."'.

Yeah, you got it on this one. I also remember Parson saying that Stanley and the others only knew his level by his chief warlord bonus, implying they should've been able to see it along with his stats.
My best guess, to reconcile the fact that they can know level and it wasn't on Jack/Bogroll's stat cards, is that it's only something you know indirectly. Like, units have a base stat and the increase per level is known, so you can math out what level they are.

[Althernai]

My best guess, to reconcile the fact that they can know level and it wasn't on Jack/Bogroll's stat cards, is that it's only something you know indirectly. Like, units have a base stat and the increase per level is known, so you can math out what level they are.

I doubt it:

You don't give me orders, Commander. I'm a 9; you're a 5. And your girlfriend is a 2.

I don't think Jillian knew Ser Webinar and Dora before and she's not the kind of character who would derive their levels from their stats on the spot.

[Shusagi]

If all warlords had the same base stats before levelling, it'd be easy to derive since they'd have the same stats as anyone else.

Not that I think this is likely. I just think that, IF level isn't a visible stat, the way they determine it must be this. It's convoluted, but since Parson didn't see Jack or Bogroll's level when he looked at them with the glasses, "level" might not be a visible stat, only known through knowing the unit's base stats or seeing it's leadership bonus in action.

Though that also implies that levelling bonuses are known and haven't been talked about, and that units are aware of the base stats of most, if not all other units. It also implies all warlords have the same base stats. So, to say that level is a hidden stat but can be determined otherwise implies a LOT of things.

So yes, the most likely explanation is "It's not included in Parson's 3D glasses", for the reason of "Rob doesn't want us number-crunching". But if what Parson sees is what everyone sees, we'll need a convoluted reason to explain it.

[Lamech]

Parson clearly does NOT see what everyone else sees. For example, Parson could look at Jack and see his name was Jack Snipe. Yet Stanley needed to ask.

[GaryThunder]

Consider also: Wanda can tell when one of her Decrypted units is close to leveling. That's why she had Sylvia kill Ossomer. Of course, she may have been lying to prevent Ansom from having to kill his own brother, but A. she doesn't seem to care about that sort of thing, and B. Ansom would immediately respond "Wait, what the hell? How do you know that?" So Wanda must be able to see some kind of XP bar for at least her Decrypted units. I seriously doubt she kept track of how many units Sylvia had croaked and did the mental math.

[drachefly]

Or the stats page fills in knowns, like name, only if already known.

WoG has it that there is no XP bar, but there are educated guesses, even better than 'it's been a long time since I've levelled, yet I've been doing a lot of fighting'.

[GaryThunder]

WoG said no XP bar before Decryption. We still don't know what the full power of Decryption really entails, especially from Wanda's end.

[drachefly]

That seems unlikely to me. Doesn't seem very thematic, and educated guess is good enough to explain the only evidence in favor of it.

[GaryThunder]

Bear in mind that Wanda seems to have more advanced knowledge of her Decrypted units than, at least, Parson.

Wanda: "You can see: he is a Warlord. And level 10, as he was before."
Parson: "But his upkeep is zero?"
Wanda: "Mm. And he will not decay."

Wanda, at the very least, knows the upkeep and decay timer of her created units, which Parson apparently doesn't. Upkeep is particularly noteworthy; everything we've been told about upkeep and the functionality of leadership suggests that Rulers (and probably Moneymancers) are the only ones who know what the upkeep of any given unit is. XP bar isn't too far from that sort of thing.

[drachefly]

Was Parson wearing his 3-D glasses?

The decay timer certainly seems like something a croakamancer would have special access, to. That is thematic.

[GaryThunder]

He was. That, and we know the Decrypted units aren't even sensed by Maggie "as Gobwin Knob units." Furthermore, Wanda's control and knowledge over her Decrypted units has been repeatedly implied to be greater than even that of a Ruler. Listen to her speak to Ansom: "You are not Jetstone's, nor truly Gobwin Knob's. You are mine." And it's been theorized by Maggie and Parson that Wanda can even see and hear out of the eyes and ears of the Decrypted - neither knows, but Maggie didn't dismiss it as unreasonable or even reject it as not being thematic with Croakamancy. Decryption, remember, is not Croakamancy, any more than the crap that Charlie pulls is Thinkamancy. This is the magic that built the world.

...Huh. I never noticed, in the comic over the bridge I linked, that Ossomer is talking to the Decrypted Archons in Panel 4. That's intriguing. What is he talking about?

[Raza]

That, and we know the Decrypted units aren't even sensed by Maggie "as Gobwin Knob units.

I don't think that's right. She stopped sensing them because they croaked; decrypting (where possible) wasn't going to happen for them until sometime later, and doesn't come into play for that statement logically.

In the text update from Maggie's POV about managing battles and saving juice and crap, we learn she had a five-figure number of speaking units to manage for the side. This seems unreasonable high if it did not include the decrypted.

[GaryThunder]

There may be a distinction between units that Maggie "has to manage" and units that can request Maggie's attention via concentrating, but your assumption is a reasonable one.

Though when I looked back at that update, I noticed something...GK took its turn at dawn here. But here, it mentions the six Charlescomm Archons that had taken their turn...at dawn. I know time is relative between hexes and that both sides could technically have taken their turn at dawn, but that doesn't square with GK's earlier predicament when Charlescomm's presence in GK's battlespace prevented GK from beginning their turn, when Charlie was threatening to tear down the city to seize Parson's bracer and Parson convinced him to wait one turn.

This is a different issue, but it concerns me a bit.

[drachefly]

Bear in mind that Wanda seems to have more advanced knowledge of her Decrypted units than, at least, Parson.

Wanda: "You can see: he is a Warlord. And level 10, as he was before."
Parson: "But his upkeep is zero?"
Wanda: "Mm. And he will not decay."

Wanda, at the very least, knows the upkeep and decay timer of her created units, which Parson apparently doesn't. Upkeep is particularly noteworthy; everything we've been told about upkeep and the functionality of leadership suggests that Rulers (and probably Moneymancers) are the only ones who know what the upkeep of any given unit is. XP bar isn't too far from that sort of thing.

Okay, looking that over, I don't know that we can infer what you just did. It looks to me like they're poring over the same info, pointing out things of note. I don't see why upkeep would be restricted to rulers and moneymancers, and XP remains quite distinct. Indeed, if upkeep were normally hidden, why would Parson even think of asking?

[GaryThunder]

Okay, looking that over, I don't know that we can infer what you just did. It looks to me like they're poring over the same info, pointing out things of note. I don't see why upkeep would be restricted to rulers and moneymancers, and XP remains quite distinct. Indeed, if upkeep were normally hidden, why would Parson even think of asking?

I'm not just drawing on that example for upkeep definitions. Bear in mind how Stanley broke the news to Parson about his high upkeep: "Yeah, it [Parson's Stupid Meal] better pop. The treasury puts your upkeep cost at over a thousand Schmuckers a turn." Recall from Parson's travels through the city that nobody works in the treasury, if indeed there is a physical treasury containing any actual Schmuckers (have we ever seen a physical Schmucker?). This suggests that the upkeep cost is communicated directly to Stanley through, perhaps, Natural Moneymancy. Given that treasury info is more of a strategic concern than a tactical concern, it seems logical that "the treasury" would inform only the Ruler, maybe also the Chief Warlord, the grand strategists. Regular warlords, tacticians all, would have no reason to have access to information from the treasury - and since upkeep is communicated by the treasury, it then follows that regular warlords don't see upkeep. This is further supported by Parson's inability to see Decrypted Ansom's upkeep.

As to why Parson asked about upkeep if he didn't think Wanda could see it? I'm guessing that some time passed between the end of the previous comic and the beginning of this one. Parson taking off his glasses in Panel 2, for instance, while not even having reached for them by the end of the last comic. It seems feasible that somewhere in that span of time Wanda said something like "This unit is Loyal to us, and has all of its original abilities - but no upkeep. You can see..." She probably said something in that time, it seems odd for the conversation to just leap like that between the two comics.

[drachefly]

I meant, why would he expect her to know whether he had upkeep or not, if that was normally the province of rulers?

[GaryThunder]

As I said, she could have mentioned it between the two comics. Clearly some conversation took place there. Parson might not have known enough, at the time, about the intricacies of upkeep rules to appreciate the significance of Wanda's knowledge.