Book 2 – Page 53

[Lamech]

Wasn't it said somewhere that it was warlords who were deseigning cities as they rebuilt them? Would that mean that if Parson Razed Spacerock and was on the spot he could rebuild it in a fashion similar the cities of Stupidworld? Would that possibly influence units popped/ poppable there?

If you have a capital and you rebuild a city it pops the same units as your capital. We can't say for certain how it works if you don't have a capital...

[╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛]

Wasn't it said somewhere that it was warlords who were deseigning cities as they rebuilt them? Would that mean that if Parson Razed Spacerock and was on the spot he could rebuild it in a fashion similar the cities of Stupidworld? Would that possibly influence units popped/ poppable there?

If you have a capital and you rebuild a city it pops the same units as your capital. We can't say for certain how it works if you don't have a capital...

Still we have clue from Faq which resumed the production of it's traditionnal units as soon as it was reaffected.

[Lamech]

Still we have clue from Faq which resumed the production of it's traditionnal units as soon as it was reaffected.

That's one option but it could be Jillian resumed production of her previous sides units. So we still need more data to pick between the two.

[effataigus]

I had some thoughts regarding my favorite webcomic that I thought I'd post here...

First, I'd like to agree with (and reassert) the idea that there seems to be something fishy going on with the relative strengths of the armies. The comparative strengths of these forces has shifted every which way with the coming and going of many units (Faq's strikeforce, the archon, the dead ground column, the city, the archers, the illusion, the Haggar column, and many many more), but, with my rough assessment it seems to me that the situation for GK is far worse now in a head to head against JS than it was before. I agree with Tram's current assessment given that Wanda has the pliers, but why didn't that tilt the balance of power hugely in GKs favor before? Again, no proof or hard arguments here, just a disquieting feeling.

... along that same line, if Tram has a mind to fight the GK ground force here in the city, why not take the healomancer? If his powers allow more mileage from a unit before it croaks, then it would be the best conceivable weapon against a force that can turn croaked against you, no?

Second, the Isaac update taught us that there are indeed erfworlders experimenting with the technology of the realm (magic). I am comfortable attributing the idea that the knowledge gained through these experiments hasn't been widely shared to the lack of any education system. Word of mouth will spread a great deal of information, but I wouldn't expect technology transfer to occur like it does on Earth.

Third, I found the Isaac update more than a little creepy. He was talking about exploring the form of natural thinkamancy involved in commanders giving units commands...?!! I.e. exploring the science of commanding people to do something with such force that they die if they disobey?! It is worth pointing out that understanding that form of compulsion could be the key to destroying it. This offers us a far more appealing vehicle by which Erfworld can be freed from a tendency toward constant warfare beyond single side dominance or total decryption. Again, sorry if this is old material... I've been traveling.

Fourth, there has been a lot of buildup for blood, but seems like there'll be more conversations first. I hope Wanda blasts that tower to bits while Slately is on the phone (not happening, I know).

Fifth, @ one of Oberon's comments, it is not clear that going through the atrium (as pictured) is the only way to get from the tower to the city walls zone, so he might indeed be able to exit safely. I would laugh if Slately is watching the battle from outside the gate pressed up against the zone boundary... and Parson steps across and cuts him down while his caster and max-stack guard look on in disbelief.

[Shusagi]

..but why didn't that tilt the balance of power hugely in GKs favor before?

Tram has only recently become the chief warlord. Ossomer didn't feel that the pliers tipped the balance too far in GK's favor, or he was arrogant. Tram, at first, thought he had GK in a chokehold, with their forces trapped and unable to attack. Unable to attack, they would also be unable to kill Jetstone units to decrypt, so the pliers were not a serious concern. They only became a concern when it became clear Tram would have to face them in ground combat.

I agree that the pliers should have been a concern prior to trapping GK's units in the airspace, but Ossomer was the chief warlord then, and must've had different thoughts on it.

... along that same line, if Tram has a mind to fight the GK ground force here in the city, why not take the healomancer? If his powers allow more mileage from a unit before it croaks, then it would be the best conceivable weapon against a force that can turn croaked against you, no?

If the healomancer was really good, I suppose he wouldn't want to risk losing it to GK.

Third, I found the Isaac update more than a little creepy. He was talking about exploring the form of natural thinkamancy involved in commanders giving units commands...?!! I.e. exploring the science of commanding people to do something with such force that they die if they disobey?! It is worth pointing out that understanding that form of compulsion could be the key to destroying it. This offers us a far more appealing vehicle by which Erfworld can be freed from a tendency toward constant warfare beyond single side dominance or total decryption. Again, sorry if this is old material... I've been traveling.

All I have to say is: Wow! I hadn't even considered anything remotely like that. Good prediction, I think.

[Lamech]

Tram has only recently become the chief warlord. Ossomer didn't feel that the pliers tipped the balance too far in GK's favor, or he was arrogant. Tram, at first, thought he had GK in a chokehold, with their forces trapped and unable to attack. Unable to attack, they would also be unable to kill Jetstone units to decrypt, so the pliers were not a serious concern. They only became a concern when it became clear Tram would have to face them in ground combat.

I agree that the pliers should have been a concern prior to trapping GK's units in the airspace, but Ossomer was the chief warlord then, and must've had different thoughts on it.

They probably did, but the casters tilted things hugely in Jetstone's favor. They had three highly valuable casters for combat and cubbins, while GK has only Jack and Wanda. And Wanda's magicks don't seem useful right now... Its implied that those casters are leaving.

[Zeku]

This offers us a far more appealing vehicle by which Erfworld can be freed from a tendency toward constant warfare beyond single side dominance or total decryption.

Mother nature doesn't provide a life model more complex than "kill the weak and then multiply," so 'freeing an entire world from warfare' sounds more ambitious than realistic, and kind of vague, as well.

Our lives seem like a long time, but in reality, it only takes a few thousand years for populations to blow up, or diminish to nothing. If people lose their desire to live, they will also lose the desire to nourish and protect children, which will annihilate a civilization in the blink of an eye. Erf creatures/creations don't require nurturing, apparently, but similarly delicate forces probably maintain the existence of that world. Warfare might be the best thing that could possibly happen to anyone, on any world, because it provides people with something to keep themselves occupied and interested in survival: a potential improvement to current conditions.

We're speculating that Charlie is the Big Bad, and that he is a sinister manipulator, but I sense that I would do the same thing in his situation. To wit, collect all reality under my influence, and if that proves impossible, at least create a balance which maximizes my own power and possessions. Other people are responsible for themselves to the extent that my own character and desire allows that level of ambivalence.


Edit: About the change in victory chances, we discussed this. GK was always able to win easily, due to substantially superior forces. The only thing that changed recently is that Wanda got locked into place, in range of the archers, when it wasn't her turn. There's a certain level of artistic license here, I find it extremely tedious to argue over details like this. We can assume (we have no choice, actually) that the narrative is built around a specific battle, which did occur this exact way, due to unit mechanics and timing.

[Ansan Gotti]

There's a certain level of artistic license here, I find it extremely tedious to argue over details like this. We can assume (we have no choice, actually) that the narrative is built around a specific battle, which did occur this exact way, due to unit mechanics and timing.

QFT. Barring a comprehensive statement of the entire ruleset complete with percentages, we're never going to know the specifics, and are going to have to take things like the Bracer at face value. I am more than OK with this, and I can't imagine why any author would do otherwise. (Game designer, a different story. But this is a work of fiction and the author needs to preserve some mystery and freedom of maneuvering.)

[Oberon]

This is a regular gun, and not a mini-gun or some other gun that would normally require a crew to operate?

It was a crew supported gun.

Found it! It's is oddly difficult to find a reference when you're looking for it in the wrong war...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_machine_gun

"The Vickers gun accompanied the BEF to France in 1914, and in the years that followed, proved itself to be the most reliable weapon on the battlefield, some of its feats of endurance entering military mythology. Perhaps the most incredible was the action by the 100th Company of the Machine Gun Corps at High Wood on 24 August 1916. This company had ten Vickers guns, and it was ordered to give sustained covering fire for 12 hours onto a selected area 2,000 yards away in order to prevent German troops forming up there for a counter-attack while a British attack was in progress. Two whole companies of infantrymen were allocated as carriers of ammunition, rations and water for the machine-gunners. Two men worked a belt-filling machine non-stop for 12 hours keeping up a supply of 250-round belts. One hundred new barrels were used up, and every drop of water in the neighbourhood, including the men’s drinking water and contents of the latrine buckets, went up in steam to keep the guns cool. And in that 12-hour period the ten guns fired a million rounds between them. One team fired 120,000 from one gun to win a five-franc prize offered to the highest-scoring gun. And at the end of that 12 hours, every gun was working perfectly and not one gun had broken down during the whole period. It was this absolute foolproof reliability which endeared the Vickers to every British soldier who ever fired one. It never broke down; it just kept on firing and came back for more. And that was why the Mark 1 Vickers gun was to remain the standard medium machine-gun from 1912 to 1968."

So, WWI vs WWII, 12 hours vs "days on end." I almost got an unaltered fact in there somewhere...

[Infidel]

Brush up your rhetoric. That first paragraph is merely the intro, stylistic spice to give the post more flavour than a mere recitation of reasons pro or con. You'll note that the rest of the post addresses your initial argument as written. To wit, I brought (lack of) infrastructure as a way to explain slow tech progress-

Infrastructure--Labs, libraries, factories, power, are not required to improve technology in a Middle-ages period. The water wheel. The Printing press, the scientific method, improved casting techniques, universal literacy, schools that go beyond the three Rs then kick the children back out to go farm, a belief that the common man can make a difference, that people are not just victims. I thought that was what we were discussing, not...

I doubt you've watched stuff like that. This is not about how they built the Pyramids, or Stonehenge, or for that matter the infinitely more challenging to design cathedrals or barrels. It's about: you're on a deserted island. Make a fridge. Nope, there aren't parts of one conveniently scattered about.

I also think that when you say "infrastructure is not necessary", you yourself are doing some rhetorical spice. You don't really believe that if you managed to grab the most detailed schematics of a car, and found yourself in Dark Age Britain at Camelot, you'd be able to build one, do you?

...building cars in camelot. You claim the transistors out of flint argument was just a stylistic device, then you do it again? Tecchnological progress is not technological leaps. And I wasn't denegrating small leaps when I said just variations on a theme. I was denegrating mostly cosmetic changes. 50,000 years and they had a few arrowhead types, some triangles, some ovals, some long pointy arrow heads. That's bad. Real, real bad. Moving up from flint arrowheads to copper arrowheads is significant progress. Because it involves a forge, and not just hitting a rock with another rock.

oh, and "Your on a deserted island, build a refrigerator," is a freaking Reality show crap. It's not real. That's why I dispise reality show crap. I watch educational shows. So yea, your right. I don't watch survivor. With people playing little games and eating worms to get points, and backstab the other players. I mean really, WTF over? If you alone on a deserted island, building a refrigerator is the last thing on your mind. I assure you. And again. Technological progress is not building a refrigerator on a deserted island. Technological progress improving from you are, not jumping to where you were. If your naked on a deserted island, building a fire alone is technological progress. Then using that fire to smoke meat for storage and cook. Construct a wheel and then stick it under a tub and you have a wheelbarrow. Baby steps.

Books about someone going back in time, or walking through a portal to some technologically backwards planet, never have he protagonist somehow bring this civ back up to modern standards. But they do bring some modern ideas that make a significant difference. Sanitation for one. There's some technological progress for you. Toilets and sewers rather than throwing offal out on the streets.

You also explain why humanity's tech progress has been slow, without resorting to natural incuriosity. So maybe we agree after all.

I can think of no other excuse for 50,000 years of lack of significant progress, other than lack of curiosity, and a lot of cultural pressure to conform to the way things are, as opposed to a cultural impetus to make the way things are now, better. Belief in yourself, belief that change can be better, and the belief that curiosity and reason are good things, not bad habits that should be beat out of children.

The Erfworld time period is set in what is a technologically stagnant period for Earth. They thought they had figured out everything there was to know about war too. It is going to be a while before the renaissance.

Ok, but what about war? Would you be able to find anyone today that would be better, consistently and always better, at leading the armies of the period, than the better generals of that period? This is actually what we are discussing here.

No, reading back thread, the discussion is explicitly concerning the reasons Erfworld technology has not been progressing independently of Parson's influence. Not, why can't Parson break the world with even more borrowed tech. If you would like to add this side discussion, then this is fine, although, I disagree.

And to answer your question, hindsight is 20/20. Any military historian who truly understands the strategies involved, and had the leadership skills necessary, could re-do any of those battles and come out better probably. But this isn't an alternative history novel, which I usually despise if they change real history, not simply perceived history. Alternative history is fun if we still end up where we are now, but for very different reasons than we believe. Alternative History is not so fun when they Change realized history with something like, "What if Inca's took over the world?"

Even the law is sometimes interpreted "in spirit", other times "in letter". It's not presumption, it's reading between the lines. And in this case, by loudly saying what I think the poster wanted said gives them the chance to correct me if necessary, or might improve a slight miscommunication.

And poorly. And it is presumption and I hardly ever see the assumer be correct. The problem with reading between the lines is: there is nothing between the lines. Any reading between the lines is putting words in someone else's mouth, and that is presumption. Saying, "I think he means", is an acceptable assumption, saying, "He means." is presumption. Moving forward on assumptions is a fact of life, and necessary, but one should never lose sight of the fact that it is an assumption. The world is full enough of people speaking loudly, and shy people will often not step in to correct a misquote if it is spoken loudly enough. Just like 9 out of 10 customers don't complain to management when they have a problem, they complain to their friends instead. I hate, "The loudest person wins!" style of argumentation. Reasonable people usually don't want to raise their voice to the level necessary to put the misinformed in their place.

---

Nice quote on the Vicker's gun. My first thought when I started reading that was, "How did they keep those guns cool?" I dunno that this is a good example though. A crew fed gun isn't really an example of two soldiers one gun since that gun is significantly more effective than two standard issue weapons. And many gun crews would still possess their personal weapon. But over 1million rounds and still kept on chugging, totally awesome.

[Ardmore W. Jeepers]

I love the effect of the Archons hovering in the background behind Ossomer. In row 4, they hang over him like a blank set of quote marks, implying there's nothing in his head but empty air. In row 5, they look like motion lines around his head, as though Slately's just stunned him with his rejection of Titanic will.

[Dr Pepper]

Still we have clue from Faq which resumed the production of it's traditionnal units as soon as it was reaffected.

That's one option but it could be Jillian resumed production of her previous sides units. So we still need more data to pick between the two.

She was happy to have megalos again.

[effataigus]

QFT. Barring a comprehensive statement of the entire ruleset complete with percentages, we're never going to know the specifics, and are going to have to take things like the Bracer at face value. I am more than OK with this, and I can't imagine why any author would do otherwise. (Game designer, a different story. But this is a work of fiction and the author needs to preserve some mystery and freedom of maneuvering.)

Heh, for a long time I've thought QFT meant "quit f***ing talking." Nice that someone added enough context after the words to make me consult urban dictionary!

Indeed, I would still love Erfworld even if there was a clear and obvious miss-assessment of forces somewhere in there (which there cannot be said to be with any certainty), and I would just pretend that it was otherwise.

However, Erfworld is remarkable in that, with inconsequential (and usually fixed) exceptions like which side of Ansom's face a bruise was originally on, reflection has essentially always demonstrated that the comic is entirely self-consistent. So much so that I'm thinking that this is a point of pride for Rob. More to your comment, I think Rob has challenged himself to tell a compelling story despite casting off the mystery and freedom of maneuvering at every turn. Perhaps I'm wrong, but until Rob himself says he'd rather not hear it, I'm going to keep reaffirming my love of Erfworld and pointing out which things ring less than "100% true" or are just points of confusion for me.

'freeing an entire world from warfare' sounds more ambitious than realistic, and kind of vague, as well

... and the hippiemancers wouldn't want it any other way!

[Freemage]

This puts one of the few folks in Erfworld who is capable of seeing how Parson thinks in a position of absolutely hating Parson (rather than finding him interesting or amusing or even a potential ally, all of which were his reactions prior to now). If Parson (or the forces under his command) kills Slately, all that potential Foe Yay goes right out the window. Trem will want to feel Parson's still-beating heart in his hand.

He seemed to be rather cordial to Ansom, who had just killed his brother. If Tramennis were the type to enter killing rages, he would have at least been upset at Ansom for what he did. (He didn't, after all, see that Sylvia actually croaked Ossomer, as he was gummed up.)

First off, remember that Trem tends to coat almost all of his interactions with others with a layer of banter--this keeps his real feelings concealed, and thus harder to manipulate. Yet he regards Ansom much the same way he regards Ossomer--an automaton under the domination of Wanda. Ask him how he feels about Wanda, at a time when he isn't playing his diplomatic games, and I suspect you'll get a fairly bloody answer.

And note--I'm not talking about a killing rage. With Trem, it's far more likely to be an icy cold hatred. My point is that he truly does have affection for his family (note his efforts to try to get one of the decrypted brothers to turn). If his father's death is directly attributed to Parson, then he's not going to be willing to ally with Parson in the future. And I think Slately is shrewd enough to understand this.

[Crarites]

Indeed, I would still love Erfworld even if there was a clear and obvious miss-assessment of forces somewhere in there (which there cannot be said to be with any certainty), and I would just pretend that it was otherwise.

However, Erfworld is remarkable in that, with inconsequential (and usually fixed) exceptions like which side of Ansom's face a bruise was originally on, reflection has essentially always demonstrated that the comic is entirely self-consistent. So much so that I'm thinking that this is a point of pride for Rob. More to your comment, I think Rob has challenged himself to tell a compelling story despite casting off the mystery and freedom of maneuvering at every turn. Perhaps I'm wrong, but until Rob himself says he'd rather not hear it, I'm going to keep reaffirming my love of Erfworld and pointing out which things ring less than "100% true" or are just points of confusion for me.

I largely agree with this sentiment but it still bothers me that in book 1 Ceasar mentions that unaroyal has a thinkamancer but in the summer updates you discover that unaroyal in fact does not.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F138.jpg

http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png

It just doesn't strike me as either a mistake Ceaser would make or a fact he would not know considering his possibly one sided relationship with Bunny. Trivial but still it bugs me.

[Ansan Gotti]

I largely agree with this sentiment but it still bothers me that in book 1 Ceasar mentions that unaroyal has a thinkamancer but in the summer updates you discover that unaroyal in fact does not.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F138.jpg

http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png

It just doesn't strike me as either a mistake Ceaser would make or a fact he would not know considering his possibly one sided relationship with Bunny. Trivial but still it bugs me.

Perhaps one of these was a mistake which will be retconjurationed in the physical book?

Heh, for a long time I've thought QFT meant "quit f***ing talking." Nice that someone added enough context after the words to make me consult urban dictionary!

Glad to be of service!

[multilis]

"in book 1 Ceasar mentions that unaroyal has a thinkamancer but in the summer updates you discover that unaroyal in fact does not."

Does Jillian have a turnomancer? Depends on how you count mercenaries hired from magic kingdom. If Charlie doesn't provide cash anymore, Jill may lose the turnomancer once the money runs out from razing.

Uniroyal and other coalition members might hire mercenary thinkomancers when they had large distant armies. Parson hints that sides need to make war to loot funds to pay for large armies, Uniroyal didn't get loot but instead lost sources of income to GK.

Part of reason Trem may feel GK can still win, is coalition may go bankrupt/lose armies to disbanding from lack of shmuckers if war drags on... GK could beat them by playing scorched earth defence while cranking out new armies from their many cities.

(If GK razes own cities as retreats, Jetstone and TV may be stretched too thin to rebuild them, push attack GK *and* try to defend selves from other kingdoms. Uniroyal is already dead. Sofa king may no longer help. Coalition is not that strong, and they had hard fight in book 1 when they were much stronger and GK was much weaker)

[teratorn]

The comparative strengths of these forces has shifted every which way with the coming and going of many units (Faq's strikeforce, the archon, the dead ground column, the city, the archers, the illusion, the Haggar column, and many many more), but, with my rough assessment it seems to me that the situation for GK is far worse now in a head to head against JS than it was before.

GK had enough power to have a chance in the teens of beating Jetstone ground forces, including the huge column from Haggar and Jillian's army. Haggar's column was on par with GK's ground forces, they finished all of the heavies except Ansom's mount, and lost less than half of their army even with Sammy recklessly targeting Ansom. That means that the dwagons and archons were probably more than of a match for Jillian and and whatever forces Jetstone had on the ground. Archons are now out of the fight, but so is Jillian. I think GK is better than before, unless Tram asks Haggar to send their forces into the city. I don't think he'd risk that.

Wanda's problem is lack of leadership to properly stack the dwagons if Jetston invades the Atrium. We have seen lots of examples on how dwagons without leadership are rather easily beaten. You just send orlys, bats, pikers or whatever low level units you have to fill their mouths while your warlords inflict enough damage to finish them. They are strong but rather stupid units. I guess that without Parson entering the fight Tram could master such a tactic and beat Wanda.

[Crarites]

"in book 1 Ceasar mentions that unaroyal has a thinkamancer but in the summer updates you discover that unaroyal in fact does not."

Does Jillian have a turnomancer? Depends on how you count mercenaries hired from magic kingdom. If Charlie doesn't provide cash anymore, Jill may lose the turnomancer once the money runs out from razing.

Uniroyal and other coalition members might hire mercenary thinkomancers when they had large distant armies. Parson hints that sides need to make war to loot funds to pay for large armies, Uniroyal didn't get loot but instead lost sources of income to GK.

Part of reason Trem may feel GK can still win, is coalition may go bankrupt/lose armies to disbanding from lack of shmuckers if war drags on... GK could beat them by playing scorched earth defence while cranking out new armies from their many cities.

(If GK razes own cities as retreats, Jetstone and TV may be stretched too thin to rebuild them, push attack GK *and* try to defend selves from other kingdoms. Uniroyal is already dead. Sofa king may no longer help. Coalition is not that strong, and they had hard fight in book 1 when they were much stronger and GK was much weaker)

If your looking for storyline reasoning to explain the inconsistency I think your idea is hard to support. Unaroyal was not shy on monetary resources since they had enough wealth to prmote every garrison unit to a field unit. A more plausible reason I think would be stating that Ceaser simply lied but then there is no motivating reason for him to lie, or a reason that has been revealed.

[GaryThunder]

First off, remember that Trem tends to coat almost all of his interactions with others with a layer of banter--this keeps his real feelings concealed, and thus harder to manipulate. Yet he regards Ansom much the same way he regards Ossomer--an automaton under the domination of Wanda. Ask him how he feels about Wanda, at a time when he isn't playing his diplomatic games, and I suspect you'll get a fairly bloody answer.

And note--I'm not talking about a killing rage. With Trem, it's far more likely to be an icy cold hatred. My point is that he truly does have affection for his family (note his efforts to try to get one of the decrypted brothers to turn). If his father's death is directly attributed to Parson, then he's not going to be willing to ally with Parson in the future. And I think Slately is shrewd enough to understand this.

Point. This is one of several reasons that, I suspect, Parson is personally arriving in Spacerock with diplomacy in mind. He always uses diplomatic pauses to inflict damage, true - but that's always when things are horribly one-sided in some fashion (their current predicament, Bogroll on the tower, etc). GK's and Jetstone's forces within Spacerock might just be about equally matched, depending on how many top units Tramennis sends away with his father. That sounds like a much better time for actual, mutual diplomacy rather than by-the-balls threatening and posturing.

If your looking for storyline reasoning to explain the inconsistency I think your idea is hard to support. Unaroyal was not shy on monetary resources since they had enough wealth to prmote every garrison unit to a field unit. A more plausible reason I think would be stating that Ceaser simply lied but then there is no motivating reason for him to lie, or a reason that has been revealed.

I don't think it's a lie or an inconsistency. Vanna, right now, is Jillian's Turnamancer. She's not a unit of Faq, but she's a Turnamancer and she's working for Jillian. Saying that Unaroyal has a Thinkamancer might just have meant that they hired one. It makes sense for a side to hire a Thinkamancer for far-flung campaigns, where communication is otherwise very difficult. (This is probably how Charlie has his fingers in everything, incidentally.)