Book 2 – Page 54

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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Raza » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:40 am

Ansan Gotti wrote:Sorry, are you referring to Jillian as a character that most of us like?

I am not so sure about that, at all. Jillian is disliked by quite a few people, and I would almost bet it's an equal number to the ones who like her. Maybe even more.

Really? I thought it was mostly BLAND, restating it in detail every other thread or so. =P

I like Jillian. She's the only character in this ridiculously mis-ethical world fighting for something worth a damn. Many of her critics seem to accept Erfworld's base assumption that furthering your side's interests is somehow a good thing; a responsibility, even. I say there is nothing good about a quest for power for your 'side' in some global free-for-all... but there is a lot to be said for living a free and thrilling life alongside your choice of lovers. Lacking an obvious way to do that peacefully and non-authoritatively, fighting for love still beats fighting for power, both ethically and poetically.

Sylvan wrote:I'm kind of in the camp that thinks this battle might be heading in a bad way for Gobwin Knob. Yeah, croaking Slately is checkmate, but remember Ossomer's discussion of how it was also less than optimal?

This was when most of Jetstone's top units were out in the field, and would disband if Slately croaked.

Currently, the Jetstone side would end, but inside the city of Spacerock not a whole lot would change. The city would go neutral, but would already be under attack, allowing its newly barbarian population to defend itself as before. 'Course, most of those defenders are also in the tower, so crashing it would probably be a winning move regardless.

And then Wanda could go digging through the rubble and decrypt herself another army; casters, king and 48 warlords included. Which, obviously, is why all this won't succeed... but it will be fun to watch.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Masennus » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:06 am

This has probably been said, but I couldn't get through the first page without saying it myself.

Dwagons can't enter the tunnels. Leaving them topside to burn the tower is not wasting anything. It's USING units that would otherwise be standing around doing nothing. GLAHRRGHGH!

So much Wanda-bashing on the first page.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Smoker » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:28 am

One thing that irked me about Slately escaping on foot:

We know from one of Parson's klogs that to take a city from the ground you need to take the outer walls, then inner walls, then the courtyard (or in this case, Atrium) and from there you can take the other parts of the garrison, like the tower.

So how can Slately go directly from tower to outer walls without going through the courtyard (or airspace)? If he can, why cant an invading force take the outer walls then the tower?

I'm glad you asked. In panel nine of this page, we see a nice model of Spacerock. Assuming this is accurate, we see that the tower is completely within the courtyard/atrium. One side is very very close to the edge, but it is still within the courtyard, as I believe it should be.

I can only assume, therefore, that there is some secret passageway that goes through the courtyard/atrium, even if the only doorways to this passageway are bordering the tower and outerwalls zones. That is to say, its in the zone, but not accessable from the zone.

So technically, Slately will go through the courtyard/atrium, but functionally he's skipping the area altogether. This is my theory, that will allow me to sleep tonight.

Now, not expecting anyone at GK to realise this, but hypothetically, is there some kind of vulnerability this presents? Is the move somewhat riskier than it has been made out to be?

Moreover, is there some issue here about "controlling" the garrison through sheer number/power of troops? If the casters and Slately (and the top units going with him) leave the garrison, will it be controlled by GK? If so, will this auto-capture all the units in the city, like what happened to Wriggley, peace be upon him?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Smoker » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:30 am

Raza wrote:
Ansan Gotti wrote:Sorry, are you referring to Jillian as a character that most of us like?

I am not so sure about that, at all. Jillian is disliked by quite a few people, and I would almost bet it's an equal number to the ones who like her. Maybe even more.

Really? I thought it was mostly BLAND, restating it in detail every other thread or so. =P


We should have polls for this sort of thing. I like Jillian.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby GaryThunder » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:59 am

I don't dislike Jillian, but I do dislike how nothing ever really seems to go wrong for her. I mean, she fails her objectives sometimes, but she never actually seems to receive any kind of setback or damage for those times that she does. Paused to parley with Wanda over GK, getting her air group fried? Nothing. (You'd think Charlie would have at least slapped her/Jetstone with a penalty clause for the Archon's death.) Got completely taken in by Jack's Foolamancy and lost Transylvito their shot at capping Stanley? Don King makes her Queen. Utterly fails at her stated objective of defending Spacerock from Wanda, gets Haggar's Chief Warlord and heir killed, and just generally gives a giant middle finger to everybody involved? Not a damned thing.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby zilfallon » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:10 am

GaryThunder wrote:I don't dislike Jillian, but I do dislike how nothing ever really seems to go wrong for her. I mean, she fails her objectives sometimes, but she never actually seems to receive any kind of setback or damage for those times that she does. Paused to parley with Wanda over GK, getting her air group fried? Nothing. (You'd think Charlie would have at least slapped her/Jetstone with a penalty clause for the Archon's death.) Got completely taken in by Jack's Foolamancy and lost Transylvito their shot at capping Stanley? Don King makes her Queen. Utterly fails at her stated objective of defending Spacerock from Wanda, gets Haggar's Chief Warlord and heir killed, and just generally gives a giant middle finger to everybody involved? Not a damned thing.


Totally agreed...she should get what she deserves soon! :)
And then Wanda could go digging through the rubble and decrypt herself another army; casters, king and 48 warlords included. Which, obviously, is why all this won't succeed... but it will be fun to watch.


apparently, most of the people (if not everyone) excepts this battle to go bad for GK. I think that Rob will surprise the crowd one more time :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Jorgath » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:40 am

name lips wrote:
Wyvern wrote:
Spoiler: show
Image


Only thing I think you're missing is the "back way" into the dungeons from the Atrium. Otherwise it's exactly how I envision it.


Agreed. Except the nitpick (sorry) that the city is called Spacerock.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby boegiboe » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:43 am

I like that the Transylvito doll looks like the Svedka robot.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Codex » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:51 am

Dr Quest DFA wrote:It looks to me that the near part of the atrium that is destroyed was UTTERLY destroyed. As in no support beams left or any indication that the structure of the Atrium continued out past of the of the ragged edges of the remaining roof. Damage just does not seem comenserate with what heppened to it. At the very least the walls of the Atrium should still be standing even if the roof was severly damaged.


Coming way late to this party w/o reading intervening posts, for all I know someone else has made these arguments, but here goes:
Dr Quest, you seem to be making the assumption that Erfworld mechanics closely resemble terrestrial mechanics, when we know for a fact this is not so. We've already seen that missiles shot toward another hex freeze in midair at the hex boundary; that entire sides' worth of units with accompanying paraphernalia disappear without a trace upon the death or dissolution of the side's leader.

There's a strong undercurrent in Erfworld physics of "things maintain their existence/state because (or as long as) they are functional." Is it that much of a stretch to believe that when the Atrium's roof-barrier is breached (and therefore non-functional), it and all of its supporting infrastructure simply disappears?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby goodmorning » Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:51 pm

May have missed someone suggesting this, but after looking at the comic again, it seems like Jack is just so alarmed in Panel 7 because Whatshername is pushing forward so eagerly. In Panel 6 she's just standing there with her head down behind him, and in the next instant she's awake and pushing past him with her sword to interject. I'd imagine he's also a little surprised by Wanda's reaction, but it seems that mostly he's just thrown off-balance by this voice by his ear. It is perhaps a subtle indicator that the Decrypted only really have any loyalty or consideration for Wanda, and that Jack is, at least in terms of courtesy, ignored by them.

In other news, I do really like the Doll. Looks good, and finally shows us a unit referred to so many times in the text updates.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Raza » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:43 pm

Smoker wrote:Now, not expecting anyone at GK to realise this, but hypothetically, is there some kind of vulnerability this presents? Is the move somewhat riskier than it has been made out to be?

Moreover, is there some issue here about "controlling" the garrison through sheer number/power of troops? If the casters and Slately (and the top units going with him) leave the garrison, will it be controlled by GK? If so, will this auto-capture all the units in the city, like what happened to Wriggley, peace be upon him?

Naw, I don't think so, on both counts. There are no game-barriers between garrison subzones; it's all physical walls now, so what they're technically passing through doesn't matter much security wise. And we know that the defenders hold the garrison and the city until every defending unit inside the garrison is croaked or captured. Outnumbering them alone won't do it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby President_Allosaurus » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:45 pm

It looks to me like Scarlet is literally shoving Jack aside. I don't think she's ever liked him much- didn't a text update elaborate on her disdain for him?

She looks so cute in the panel before. Like a tiger or something.

I'm a big fan of the ceiling and giant leather chair in Transylvito. Xin's artwork is improving.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:52 pm

President_Allosaurus wrote:It looks to me like Scarlet is literally shoving Jack aside. I don't think she's ever liked him much- didn't a text update elaborate on her disdain for him?


It was the other way around.

goodmorning wrote:May have missed someone suggesting this, but after looking at the comic again, it seems like Jack is just so alarmed in Panel 7 because Whatshername is pushing forward so eagerly.


Her name is Gertrude Sontag.

Smoker wrote:We should have polls for this sort of thing. I like Jillian.


Challenge accepted! To the Empiric-mobile!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby boegiboe » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:58 pm

I don't buy that Jack is merely surprised at being pushed, because it would represent a serious artistic error on Xin's part. If he's being pushed and reacting to that, comic drawing practice would demand some indication of motion, preferably of violent motion, like smears or action lines, or even wiggles around his outline. But in this panel? No motion at all. Sylvia is leaning on her firmly planted sword. No, no one has moved between this and the previous panel, and I doubt that's accidental.

After wanting to say that Wanda did good here with her order, I have been won over to the side that says she made a mistake and someone (I guess Sylvia) will pay for it. The real mistake is her hubris in making a strategic decision without consulting Parson first for the very first time since TBfGK. It is that event that so surprises Jack. The sign of reckless hubris is that, now having survived what would normally be seen as a suicide attempt, she truly thinks she's invincible, and you can see it in her eyes in that panel. What's more, one reason she probably wants the tower down is to collect all the decrypts that destruction would cause. She'd love to follow every one of Parson's orders to the letter, and yet have won the battle herself before he arrives.

I agree with BLAND (I think it was he) that there is nothing overtly wrong with the action she's taking, but that there are other smart folks out there that can have an effect. The first that pops into my mind is that Don King's bat will see Wanda take her contingent to the dungeon, and is just about to be talking to Slately, and so can relay this VISINT at a critical moment.

It strikes me here that Parson's hubris in thinking he will be most useful in person at the battle would be to blame here, too. He's doing it for noble reasons, not wanting to send people into battle when he won't risk his own skin, but he'll be stealing Wanda's glory. In fact, the coincidence of that affront and Wanda megalomaniacal turn may make Wanda think that her strategy of working for Stanley has been bass-ackwards. She's already seized all of Stanley's dragons. Now, she'll seize Spacerock and Parson and use them to take control of the Arkenhammer by defeating and decrypting Stanley. Or she'll try...third book, maybe?

I know lots of others have been talking about Wanda turning and that idea isn't particularly new. What hadn't occurred to me before was a real, dramatic, and believable motive stream to push her to another treason as the best way to unite the Arkentools.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Wyvern » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:04 pm

Jorgath wrote:
name lips wrote:
Wyvern wrote:
Spoiler: show
Image


Only thing I think you're missing is the "back way" into the dungeons from the Atrium. Otherwise it's exactly how I envision it.


Agreed. Except the nitpick (sorry) that the city is called Spacerock.

Whoops! You're right. I totally spaced out on that. (Spacerocked out?)

Looking through a few other pages, I found a couple of shots of GK's garrison, and they have the tower built into the rear courtyard wall too (see the first panel here: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2009-12-08.jpg). So that seems to be the common basic design for all garrisons. No way to tell if they have a back door or not, though (I'm still puzzled by that).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby President_Allosaurus » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:19 pm

boegiboe wrote:I don't buy that Jack is merely surprised at being pushed, because it would represent a serious artistic error on Xin's part. If he's being pushed and reacting to that, comic drawing practice would demand some indication of motion, preferably of violent motion, like smears or action lines, or even wiggles around his outline. But in this panel? No motion at all. Sylvia is leaning on her firmly planted sword. No, no one has moved between this and the previous panel, and I doubt that's accidental.


There's no violent lines of motion, but I can only see Scarlet just bumping Jack aside to talk and Wanda grinning at her. You can see the shield thing on her arm is pressing up against him. How close Jack is to her isn't just a coincidence, I think- it would be weirder if the bumping wasn't intended.

I don't think Jack would be so quiet in response to Wanda if that's what was surprising him. He's pretty talkative.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby atalex » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:26 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:
atalex wrote:Not surprising, really. Caesar is an anti-hero plotting against a character most of us like, and arguably with good reason given how Jillian has let down her backers. Vinny hasn't even been seen since the last summer update and has fallen from "Ansom's right hand and conscience" to "Jillian's latest besotted love toy."


Sorry, are you referring to Jillian as a character that most of us like?

I am not so sure about that, at all. Jillian is disliked by quite a few people, and I would almost bet it's an equal number to the ones who like her. Maybe even more.


I meant Don King who is fairly popular. Honestly, I can't think of anyone on the forum who has expressed a liking of Jillian.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:26 pm

boegiboe wrote:I know lots of others have been talking about Wanda turning and that idea isn't particularly new. What hadn't occurred to me before was a real, dramatic, and believable motive stream to push her to another treason as the best way to unite the Arkentools.


The idea is really, really old. Among others, I put it forth way back at the end of Book 1. It seemed the perfect time; Stanley had 8 or so Dwagons left (and a new Blue, that's true), some Hob Knights, and Jack. Not a force to joke with, but not terribly great either. Wanda meanwhile managed to Decrypt 3000-something RCC troops, among them the huge-levelled Ansom, and about 20 Archons. Plus, she was sitting on the Rubble of GK, a capital site, filled with Gems that Sizemore (and Wanda) knew about. Further, the never-before-seen Dirtamancy trap would allow her a few turns in which RCC members would reel back in shock, not knowing what happened.

Situation seemed as good as it would have ever gotten, had she wanted to betray Stanley.

She didn't so I changed my tune. The timing, after that, was off, as all the above factors were removed by various circumstances. Right now, it's not better for her to betray than it was back then.

But it's close ...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby effataigus » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:30 pm

Yay, I made a stream of consciousness post:

Wyvern wrote:
Spoiler: show
Image



My nitpick is that the outer walls should be a hex if TV's picture is to be believed.
boegiboe wrote:I don't buy that Jack is merely surprised at being pushed, because it would represent a serious artistic error on Xin's part.
Emphasis added.
Ysoserious? I'm not convinced that leaving them out would be an error at all for this action, much less a serious one. However, I admit the current drawing is ambiguous as to whether he is pushed or shocked or both! Usually I don't call people out when their rhetoric gets away from them, but I like Xin's art a lot and tend to instinctively defend it :D

As for the conversation about her making a mistake, I'm not sure it's fair of us to say she made a mistake without also indicating how her decisions will come back to bite her. "Splitting forces" is a negative buzzword, but so is "defensive inaction" and "disobeying Parson." I don't see any optimal path for her right now, and her orders don't seem any worse than any others I can think of... even given all that we know. Where Wanda made a big (tactical) mistake was not following Ossomer's suggestion to sneak in under veil and croak Jillian... but I can't fault her for trying to talk to her former love instead of kill her... but I can fault her for loving Jillian :evil:

boegiboe wrote:It strikes me here that Parson's hubris in thinking he will be most useful in person at the battle would be to blame here, too. He's doing it for noble reasons, not wanting to send people into battle when he won't risk his own skin, but he'll be stealing Wanda's glory. In fact, the coincidence of that affront and Wanda megalomaniacal turn may make Wanda think that her strategy of working for Stanley has been bass-ackwards. She's already seized all of Stanley's dragons. Now, she'll seize Spacerock and Parson and use them to take control of the Arkenhammer by defeating and decrypting Stanley. Or she'll try...third book, maybe?


I think Wanda knows that she's only alive right now because of Parson... I doubt she'd feel an affront from him saving the day again. However, I do agree that Parson's decision to risk the MK is a puzzling one tactically. All kinds of risk with a dubious, at best, payout. I think he might just have the "never leave a fallen soldier behind" morality thing going on right now... which we know to be a huge boost for the morale of troops on that side here on Earth. Perhaps this will improve his leadership? But yes, he has started to see Erfers as people, so tactics are no longer the only consideration.
atalex wrote:I meant Don King who is fairly popular. Honestly, I can't think of anyone on the forum who has expressed a liking of Jillian.

This topic came up plenty before... there are definitely people on both sides, but the people who dislike her are right. Kidding! But yes, I'm on team not-Jillian.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby atalex » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:32 pm

Raza wrote:
Currently, the Jetstone side would end, but inside the city of Spacerock not a whole lot would change. The city would go neutral, but would already be under attack, allowing its newly barbarian population to defend itself as before.


I believe that if the ruler croaks without an heir, units outside the city disband, while units inside the city become paralyzed. That was what Parson expected to happen if Stanley got croaked during his aborted flight to Faq in Book 1.
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