Book 2 – Page 54

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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:33 pm

effataigus wrote:
atalex wrote:I meant Don King who is fairly popular. Honestly, I can't think of anyone on the forum who has expressed a liking of Jillian.

This topic came up plenty before... there are definitely people on both sides, but the people who dislike her are right. Kidding! But yes, I'm on team not-Jillian.


My sensors indicate the original post has a high irony content.

effataigus wrote:As for the conversation about her making a mistake, I'm not sure it's fair of us to say she made a mistake without also indicating how her decisions will come back to bite her.


The running theory seems to be that the Purples and Gertrude Sontag are left behind, and will fight against Trem and the Jetstone heavies. Slately escapes, while an EPIC battle ensues in the Atrium. Sadly, the Jetstone forces outnumber the Dwagons led by Sonya Conan, and with Wanda not being there to decrypt, Electra Phoenix is eventually overrun and dusted along with all the dwagons, resulting in a sad day for members of the Crimson Fanclub world-wide.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby effataigus » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:36 pm

atalex wrote:
Raza wrote:
Currently, the Jetstone side would end, but inside the city of Spacerock not a whole lot would change. The city would go neutral, but would already be under attack, allowing its newly barbarian population to defend itself as before.


I believe that if the ruler croaks without an heir, units outside the city disband, while units inside the city become paralyzed. That was what Parson expected to happen if Stanley got croaked during his aborted flight to Faq in Book 1.


There are two rules at work here:

If the ruler gets capped, then the city goes neutral as Raza mentioned and all units outside cities disband.

If the garrison (presumably all 3 subzones?) gets captured, then all units inside the city become paralyzed (restrained? there was a specific word here...).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby effataigus » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:42 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
effataigus wrote:
atalex wrote:I meant Don King who is fairly popular. Honestly, I can't think of anyone on the forum who has expressed a liking of Jillian.

This topic came up plenty before... there are definitely people on both sides, but the people who dislike her are right. Kidding! But yes, I'm on team not-Jillian.


My sensors indicate the original post has a high irony content.

effataigus wrote:As for the conversation about her making a mistake, I'm not sure it's fair of us to say she made a mistake without also indicating how her decisions will come back to bite her.


The running theory seems to be that the Purples and Gertrude Sontag are left behind, and will fight against Trem and the Jetstone heavies. Slately escapes, while an EPIC battle ensues in the Atrium. Sadly, the Jetstone forces outnumber the Dwagons led by Sonya Conan, and with Wanda not being there to decrypt, Electra Phoenix is eventually overrun and dusted along with all the dwagons, resulting in a sad day for members of the Crimson Fanclub world-wide.


Aha, I geet it now. Damn my literal readings...

Regarding the bad decision... I suppose tactially it does make extra sense to consolidate forces for GK in this particular battle. Their greatest weapons are the decrypted bonus and the conversion of enemy troops, and those can only exist for one force at a time. Who knows how long it would take Wanda to rejoin with the main forces... and Tram is just the kind of leader to recognize this opportunity!

Ok, you've convinced me. Antwana Spielderpole is doomed by Wanda's decision.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:51 pm

effataigus wrote:Ok, you've convinced me. Antwana Spielderpole is doomed by Wanda's decision.


Yep. Thank goodness Sylvia Lazarus comes in six-packs, and has all those clones to bite the dust before she does.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Ansan Gotti » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:12 pm

atalex wrote:I meant Don King who is fairly popular. Honestly, I can't think of anyone on the forum who has expressed a liking of Jillian.


OK, whew! Thanks, my universe is back in alignment. ;)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby atalex » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:17 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
boegiboe wrote:I know lots of others have been talking about Wanda turning and that idea isn't particularly new. What hadn't occurred to me before was a real, dramatic, and believable motive stream to push her to another treason as the best way to unite the Arkentools.


The idea is really, really old. Among others, I put it forth way back at the end of Book 1. It seemed the perfect time; Stanley had 8 or so Dwagons left (and a new Blue, that's true), some Hob Knights, and Jack. Not a force to joke with, but not terribly great either. Wanda meanwhile managed to Decrypt 3000-something RCC troops, among them the huge-levelled Ansom, and about 20 Archons. Plus, she was sitting on the Rubble of GK, a capital site, filled with Gems that Sizemore (and Wanda) knew about. Further, the never-before-seen Dirtamancy trap would allow her a few turns in which RCC members would reel back in shock, not knowing what happened.

Situation seemed as good as it would have ever gotten, had she wanted to betray Stanley.

She didn't so I changed my tune. The timing, after that, was off, as all the above factors were removed by various circumstances. Right now, it's not better for her to betray than it was back then.

But it's close ...


Tactically, it would be wise of Wanda to split off her own side. The problem is that her tactical expertise is overwhelmed by her religious mania. She thinks she is destined by Fate to bring the Arkentools together for some purposes apparently unknown even to her. IMO, she will not break with Stanley unless some external force compels her to do so or unless Charlie makes her a better offer. At most, her obsession with Jillian distracted her from her primary goal, but not completely or else she would have turned to Faq when she had the chance. There is also the fact that she cannot simply remove Stanley and claim the Hammer because there is no guarantee that a wielder can attune more than one Arkentool or even that anyone other than Stanley can attune to the Arkenhammer. Unless circumstances lead her to defect to Charlie (which, IMO, has been foreshadowed), I think she stays with Stanley at least until the fourth Arkentool is discovered.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Lamech » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:19 pm

effataigus wrote:
Aha, I geet it now. Damn my literal readings...

Regarding the bad decision... I suppose tactially it does make extra sense to consolidate forces for GK in this particular battle. Their greatest weapons are the decrypted bonus and the conversion of enemy troops, and those can only exist for one force at a time. Who knows how long it would take Wanda to rejoin with the main forces... and Tram is just the kind of leader to recognize this opportunity!
All the tunnel capable units are going (minus one Lady Lazarus), so its not like the forces can be any less divided. Also dividing forces is extremely painful for Jetstone too. For every unit they lose they need to get a kill, or Wanda's forces grow. So they need to overcome the pliers+Wanda+leadership bonus basically. I'm sure they won't have trouble with that if they use their casters, doubling+healing should do it. But then the forces trying to stop the dwagons take a huge hit because no doubling or healing, which in turn risks the tower and everything inside.

And plus what else can the dwagons do? They could try to cover the "back way", but Jetstone forces could still go to the dungeon through the tower; the dwagons fail to accomplish anything at all! If the dwagons attack Jetstone needs to use forces to defend. Even if Jetstone did decide to use the "back way" then what? If the dwagons are at the tower, the tower is taking damage, the Jetstone forces still need to fight through them, and the dwagons can take advantage of the choke point that is the door. (If Jetstone tries to go around the outside of the atrium the dwagons have plenty of time to get back.) Compare this with defending in the atrium, the tower is safe and the dwagons don't get a choke point.

Having the dwagons attack the tower is clearly the best option. They won't accomplish anything, since Jetstone doesn't need the atrium to get to Wanda. Even if Jetstone, for some inane reason decided to take the atrium the most defensible position is at the tower. Attacking forces Jetstone to waste units defending the tower, and may even keep the whole army pinned down while Parson gets in.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby DevilDan » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:28 pm

Tunnel capable units may be referring only to heavier units, not necessarily to every grunt.

Could Slately transfer all his troops to Don and go down in battle himself? (With the understanding that eventually Tramennis would be set as ruler at some point?)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby effataigus » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:34 pm

Lamech wrote:All the tunnel capable units are going (minus one Lady Lazarus), so its not like the forces can be any less divided. Also dividing forces is extremely painful for Jetstone too. For every unit they lose they need to get a kill, or Wanda's forces grow. So they need to overcome the pliers+Wanda+leadership bonus basically. I'm sure they won't have trouble with that if they use their casters, doubling+healing should do it. But then the forces trying to stop the dwagons take a huge hit because no doubling or healing, which in turn risks the tower and everything inside.

And plus what else can the dwagons do? They could try to cover the "back way", but Jetstone forces could still go to the dungeon through the tower; the dwagons fail to accomplish anything at all! If the dwagons attack Jetstone needs to use forces to defend. Even if Jetstone did decide to use the "back way" then what? If the dwagons are at the tower, the tower is taking damage, the Jetstone forces still need to fight through them, and the dwagons can take advantage of the choke point that is the door. (If Jetstone tries to go around the outside of the atrium the dwagons have plenty of time to get back.) Compare this with defending in the atrium, the tower is safe and the dwagons don't get a choke point.

Having the dwagons attack the tower is clearly the best option. They won't accomplish anything, since Jetstone doesn't need the atrium to get to Wanda. Even if Jetstone, for some inane reason decided to take the atrium the most defensible position is at the tower. Attacking forces Jetstone to waste units defending the tower, and may even keep the whole army pinned down while Parson gets in.


Aye, and perhaps it is unfair to fault Wanda instead of Parson. Without Parson's order to meet at the portal, the tunnel-capable units wouldn't need to split off. Instead the united forces could beat on the tower walls until either JS comes out or the tower comes down. However, if there is some big advantage of having Parson on the front lines (and I'm assuming there will be, but I don't see why Parson should assume that), then it is improper to fault anyone. Unless I'm missing something, Parson is ordering an escort for himself to split off from the main forces... possibly endangering his entire side for a dubious advantage.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby boegiboe » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:42 pm

atalex wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:
boegiboe wrote:I know lots of others have been talking about Wanda turning and that idea isn't particularly new. What hadn't occurred to me before was a real, dramatic, and believable motive stream to push her to another treason as the best way to unite the Arkentools.


The idea is really, really old. Among others, I put it forth way back at the end of Book 1. It seemed the perfect time; Stanley had 8 or so Dwagons left (and a new Blue, that's true), some Hob Knights, and Jack. Not a force to joke with, but not terribly great either. Wanda meanwhile managed to Decrypt 3000-something RCC troops, among them the huge-levelled Ansom, and about 20 Archons. Plus, she was sitting on the Rubble of GK, a capital site, filled with Gems that Sizemore (and Wanda) knew about. Further, the never-before-seen Dirtamancy trap would allow her a few turns in which RCC members would reel back in shock, not knowing what happened.

Situation seemed as good as it would have ever gotten, had she wanted to betray Stanley.

She didn't so I changed my tune. The timing, after that, was off, as all the above factors were removed by various circumstances. Right now, it's not better for her to betray than it was back then.

But it's close ...


Tactically, it would be wise of Wanda to split off her own side. The problem is that her tactical expertise is overwhelmed by her religious mania. She thinks she is destined by Fate to bring the Arkentools together for some purposes apparently unknown even to her. IMO, she will not break with Stanley unless some external force compels her to do so or unless Charlie makes her a better offer. At most, her obsession with Jillian distracted her from her primary goal, but not completely or else she would have turned to Faq when she had the chance. There is also the fact that she cannot simply remove Stanley and claim the Hammer because there is no guarantee that a wielder can attune more than one Arkentool or even that anyone other than Stanley can attune to the Arkenhammer. Unless circumstances lead her to defect to Charlie (which, IMO, has been foreshadowed), I think she stays with Stanley at least until the fourth Arkentool is discovered.


Right, what you and BLAND are saying here, and have been saying for a while (along with many others), has been completely convincing to me up until today. And don't get me wrong--I'm not now entirely convinced you're wrong. But what we've been seeing since the beginning of this book has been a steady progression of Wanda from dutiful servant to zealous religious leader. That path usually then leads to megalomaniacal tyrant. With her request to decrypt Jack, and now her eagerness to destroy the tower, even if it doesn't absolutely need to happen anymore, without consulting Parson for the first time ever, she could be well on her way to becoming Evil Witch Queen Wanda.

In her increasingly twisted mind, she may be thinking that the Arkenpliers, with the power to resurrect and command absolute loyalty from any croaked unit, are Fate's signal that, not only is she to bring the 'Tools together, but the Arkentools are Fated to be brought together under her icy command. :twisted: Once she gets a whiff of that idea of power, she may decide she can croak Stanley, decrypt him, and he'll re-attune to the Arkenhammer.

As for the event that pushes her over the edge into making her own side, one I can imagine would be decrypting Slately. Why does she need to obey Stanley at all once she has her own king to command. The name "Jetstone" would take on a whole new meaning--cold and black jewel. Maybe my imagination is running away with me, but really, that's what I like about the pace of this comic and the forum discussions. This community multiplies the possibilities way beyond what any one of us would do reading it in isolation from start to finish!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby fjolnir » Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:23 pm

Someone got new foil I see!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby boegiboe » Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:43 pm

fjolnir wrote:Someone got new foil I see!


Do I look good in silver? :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Konterfei » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:02 pm

lol! the yellow dwagon who was chasing the Jetstone soldiers around is still alive! :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:59 pm

Konterfei wrote:lol! the yellow dwagon who was chasing the Jetstone soldiers around is still alive! :D


As Ralph Wiggum once said: "Go Banana!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmSfpTC9Rnk
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Raza » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:04 pm

I kinda like the idea of decrypted Stanley to reunite the attuned.

At some point in this story, he'll have to get up and kick some epic ass - his talent demands it. This can only happen if...
A) The situation is absolutely desperate,
B) He appoints an heir, or
C) He is killed and decrypted.

A has already happened and seems increasingly unlikely, although in a war and adventure story it'll always remain a good option. B seems improbable... his character development hasn't been going anywhere near that, and the 'thinkamancy your ruler' card has already been played. C seems like a nice surprise twist, and frankly I think he'd come into his own being somebody's champion again, instead of the guy in charge.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Ansan Gotti » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:09 pm

Wanna hear a crazy theory?

At some point, based on the dire situation at hand and his gamer's desire to win, Parson will ask or direct Wanda to kill and decrypt him for the extra bonuses.

I know, crazy. As you were. ;)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby ShieldOfAthena » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:25 pm

Think everyone is missing why Scarlet is so excited. She knows, from her bonus, who the current Chief Warlord is. She's asking if they have orders from Parson specifically to knock down the tower. There was a whole update dedicated to how Parson with an idea makes her wet, think about it, of course she's barging in.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby RichMan » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:08 pm

We have no information about bonuses not working across the sub-zones of capital. So have to go with the standard bonus description.
Lots for being in the same stack as your commander, less for being in the same hex.

Wanda can only stack with so many units. She is still in the same hex as all of the rest of the units so they might get a bit of bonus.
I don't really see the splitting of the groups having much of an affect on any bonuses.

Except if you were serious about getting the towers down you would bonus stack on the siege units for maximal effect.
Lady Lazarus may have a skill that applies and likely has a reasonable leadership bonus in any case.

As far as I can remember the bonuses around the pliers and the associated units have never been described.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby GaryThunder » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:30 pm

Wanda's Decrypted bonus will apply across the whole city hex, in addition to the massive direct bonus she'll give everyone in her stack. The power of this particular bonus is it stacks with leadership, so her and Antium will both be powering up her tunnel group, and her residual hex-wide bonus will pile on top of Sylvia's bonus to the force attacking the tower. I wonder if Tramennis knows about this...?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 54

Postby Oberon » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:07 am

davidbrawley wrote:Now what is Don up to I wonder?
Don is looking for privacy for a call from a friend.
Zeku wrote:Wanda and Jack seem to have that "we've won so we can stop thinking now" air about them.
I read it more as a natural elation after risking death via tower magics, fall, and archers, and finding that you're not only alive, but you've got a decent if not better chance to win. It'd be hard to keep any troops in history from feeling invincible in a similar situation.
oslecamo2 wrote:You know, having private talks behind your chief warlord's back when there's a major crisis going on surely won't score any extra loylaty points for Don.
Meh, it certainly isn't a major crisis for TV...
thorne wrote:I'm under the impression that Jack, despite having thought up the idea, is shocked, actually, that Wanda is basically claiming higher rank than Parson (in panel 7). Wanda is about to deviate from Parson's orders, deliberately. I think this is a subtle representation of a major turning point. Great update!
I'm not at all certain that taking the initiative is the same as "deviating from Parson's orders." Wanda is the Chief caster, after all, and is the ranking Unit on site. She should be free to apply her Commander rank in any way which is not directly contradictory to Parson. And she stated the primary objective clearly enough: "We must take the portal room."
Atomic wrote:Not only is she splitting up her forces, but she's depriving the Decrypted units of their bonus, as well. This isn't gonna bode well for her... She needs to make it all the way to Parson and back before the forces of Jetstone march upon her army. Thankfully, she should have a chance to get back while Slately makes that call... Attempts to make a call, at least.
Meh, she is applying siege to a target where siege is appropriate, and is taking the remainder of her units after the main objective. The siege capable units and supporting units also may act as a rear guard, while also potentially croaking the King of the opposing Side by taking down his tower. This doesn't seem foolish to me.
Codex wrote:
thorne wrote: shocked, actually, that Wanda is basically claiming higher rank than Parson (in panel 7).

I don't see it that way. IMO, since this is an aspect of the battle plan for which Parson didn't give any orders (for or against), Wanda has free rein. She's not unnecessarily splitting her forces--in the next panel she commits all tunnel-capable forces to taking the Portal Room, which is all she could do anyway on that front. As for the remaining forces, it's the commander-on-the-ground's prerogative to exercise initiative and attack targets of opportunity.

Edit: Beaten to the punch by odoflood. And for this I created a new account and made my first forum post?
A first post of intelligent perspective, so do not be dismayed at the ninjas!
BLANDCorporatio wrote:2. Parson darts through the MK, no problemo. If any delay occurs, it is due to Janis insisting that he stay a bit for tea and crumpets. Which may contain hippiemancy ingredients.
Mushroom tea and ganja crumpets?
BLANDCorporatio wrote:OTOH, now Wanda just did bad things to Stanley's dwagons. That rift might be impossible to heal, even by an impromptu massage session.)
C'mon, now... There is nothing that Wanda can't heal with an impromptu massage session.
joosy wrote:
Dante wrote:
Is it Charlie's turn next?

No, Charlescomm is allied with Faq, which took its turn with along with Jetstone. It's Charlie's turn right now.

Close but no cigar. Charlescomm is NOT allied with Faq but is working in concert with them.
I'd say that Danta is correct. Remember that Jillian expected that Charlie could commit Archons to help her wipe out the GK column. This cannot happen without an alliance which allows the allied Sides to take their turns together.
joosy wrote:Remember the archons trapped in the sky above Haggar units? Charlescomm took their turn at dawn.
That's a good point, but it doesn't answer why Jillian thought that Charlie could add archons to her attacking forces. That can only happen if Sides are allies and therefore taking their turns at the same time.
Jillian wrote:Jillian frowned. "Why not? Riding in right now with me would be good for you. The Royals see you wipe out a major ground force, with Stanley's Chief Warlord in it, they'll probably accept you as an okay ally."
A force cannot "ride in with you" if they are not allied with you and therefore take their turns with you. Is there another explanation for this terminology? And yet:
Book 2 - Text 18 wrote:Charlescomm was formally allied with no side in this battlespace, and so the six of them had taken their turn at dawn.
Very contradictory... If Charlescomm was formally allied with no side in this battlespace, why did Jillian conclude that he could "Rid[e] in right now with me", when he cannot if he is not allied? And why the qualifier "formally"?
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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