Book 2 - Page 55

[Angband]

Also note that Benjamin is not a native of Transylvito. He is either a captured/turned unit or some other mechanism by which casters join a different side. His loyalty is probably very good, but not as good as if he was a native unit.

No speculation necessary... we know from canon that casters can just be hired by other sides (see: Vanna).

[the_tick_rules]

That is a good point. The decrypted are new, over turns more effective means of dealing with them are sure to be developed. Ace could definately be a leader with some kinda gizmos.

By the way, what did Trammenis do with all the dead in the hex occupied by Ansom? There were droves of Haggar dead, and we know a few Jetstone died there. Dead twools will probably disappear at the start of next turn, but enemy troops will be there for Wanda.

We didn't see any being carted off, burned, or whatever so either they are still there or they did something about them and we didn't see it. They were expecting Wanda to be croaked or captured by now so they probably didn't bother with any body securing methods. I suppose Wanda could fly back and decrypt them, but that would involve flying over hostile terrain on the next turn and leaving the battle inside the city, probably not a great proposition.

[Whispri]

I think Faq can stand on its own. Jillian is going to be sacking Gobwinknob cities on her way home, and will be able to bank a tidy sum. Jillian has all the contacts she made as a mercenary, and the resources of a kingdom. She'll be able to get the kind of work she likes, even if it's not against GK now. She's fiscally secure and independent of Charlie and Translyvito now.

Thing about that is, her capital is swarming in Translyvyto units and thus vulnerable to a surprise attack. Furthermore, it seems likely at this point that Wanda's airgroup is going to come through this battle mostly intact. And that means that the next turn is going to be a very painful one for anyone in their range.

In fact I'd say the 'bravely run away' plan Jetstone's going with at the moment would be completely pointless if not for the target rich enviroment around Spacerock, Jillian may save them despite herself.

The power of the pliers have been discussed in earlier threads. I think we can assume that the hammer and the dish can tame the appropriate unit types, even in a battle against them. So if Charlie fought Archons, he would instantly assimilate the enemy army. And, each arkentool, including the pliers, has the ability to slowly build up power over time by taming wild units.

The advantage of the pliers is there is no unit-type limitation, and no upkeep. The disadvantage of the pliers is that the unit has to be dead before it can be 'tamed,' and it is likely (not shown in the comic?) that positive effects cannot function on the decrypted, specifically healing, and morale bonuses, if they exist. (But they do get a bonus from the croakamancer)

There's no question that the pliers have some balance problems. If they were in a real game, they would need a nerf, in spite of the narrow circumstances under which they become overpowered.

When talking about the power of the Arkenpliers there's something you shouldn't forget. Wanda doesn't actually need them to destroy hostile sides with armies of their own dead. She probably wouldn't have the Dwagons, so Jetstone wouldn't be quite as doomed and she might have had to use Jack as a brolly, but she'd be Dancing her way to the portal right about now even without them.

Yes, the Pliers are mighty, but they've replaced powerful abilities Wanda already possessed (The girl really needs a Class change.).

[joosy]

Hmm, casters seem mostly exempt from the rule of "massive conformity". I'd have a hard time putting any casters in their matching sides with any confidence (with the exception of Ace and Bunny)

Bunny being a vampire does help your case though!

Really? You have seen casters who don't share the same skin/eye characteristics as their own side? Hmm.. lets see. Wanda, Jack, Jillian, all have the same pupil characteristics, Bunny looks like all of the other Transylvitians with the red eyes and skin. Sizemore and Stanley appear to be all part of the nearly lost Plaid tribe (white ovals for eyes) Not sure on Maggie - she does have gray skin but has the same eyes. She could be an exception or a captured unit. Who else, oh we have seen Ace, the Dittomancer, Cubbins, and Pierce all look like other Jetstone units. Vanna looks like other Unaroyal units (pre-croaked Sylvia is our one example). Benjamin stands out not just for his clothes but his eye color and skin tone. That is not by accident - it is intentionally drawn that way. Barring word from the Titans on this, I don't see how you can conclude that he was popped by Transylvito. True all casters appear to have unique garb but their skin tone and eyes match the side they were popped into.

[Oberon]

Do we have a reference for how disbanding actually works? It's not clear to me that he can disband a disloyal unit. If disbanding is an order, then Caesar can disobey.

Not directly. Stanley was absolutely flabbergasted that Parson had disobeyed an order without disbanding. Bea said she "almost" disbanded the messenger who reported that her daughter was the envoy for GK, but she didn't expound upon the process. The clues dropped lead to these rational (not claiming they are exclusive, just representative of the examples given) conclusions:
1) A unit may disobey and not disband if it considers the order to lead to the destruction of the ruler (this is the exact justification Wanda gave to Stanley);
2) A unit may disobey and not disband if it did not understand the full implications of the order. Parson didn't know that walking the city was a part of the order Stanley gave him to manage the city;
3) A ruler may voluntarily disband units. This could be either out of anger (as with Bea and the messenger), or our of disappointment (as Stanley considered with Parson, Wanda, and Sizemore after the reversal/loss after the donut of doom), or it could be for purposes of managing upkeep. There does not seem to be any way for the unit to avoid this, as Stanley openly pondered disbanding those three, in their presence, with his back to them all, and without any hint of worry or concern;
4) An heir unit may in some unknown manner "make a play for the throne", as did Don's son. This must include disobedience as a simple matter of fact, and yet it must not cause disbandment all by itself or it wouldn't be possible. If Stanley is involved in the gobwin uprising against Saline IV, this would be another example, and one which was successful.

Item 4 is why Don should get rid of Caesar now, while he can. Caesar has made a political campaign out of undermining Don's authority, to the point where Don can't order a caster to create a gem without that caster seeking Caesar's validation of that order. An intolerable position for a leader to be in, and one which needs to be eliminated immediately. Caesar is the Sheen to Don's Lorre.

Disbanding Ceaser would be a really bad idea. The fact of the matter is the casters can just leave. Worse even is the warlords who can turn the second they get into combat.

Disbanding Caesar might be a poor option, but still not be a bad idea. If you had the unfortunate choice of dismissing a highly skilled but now vocally disgruntled employee who had been a key contributor to the success of your company but who is now undermining your authority and stirring up bad publicity for the company, or being replaced as CEO of your company, you might not like the choice, but you might select to remain in your position rather than to lose it. Similarly for Don, but more seriously, killing Caesar might be his only option other than death. If he values his life, Caesar must die.
Casters can turn. I don't believe we have evidence that they can just leave. As long as Don keeps his casters in the capitol where most sides keep their casters, they'll only hear offers to turn if the capitol is being attacked. Which is pretty much the live or die moment for any side.
Warlords, they don't have the freedom you describe. Typically, only casters are offered the option to turn, because turned units have a notoriously low loyalty. Warlords live or die with their side. They might support a coup attempt, though, and this is just one more reason to get rid of Caesar.

You're right that being the heir makes [Caesar] too powerful since he can claim the throne, but he has nevertheless shown to be pretty loyal. He complained but went grumbling to his corner and kept doing his part for Transylvito. If he ever makes a move for the throne he'll be doing it for TV not for himself. I expect him to use his strength to impose his own terms on the Don, not to croak him. Jillian may not like what is coming.

Loyal? Not by a long shot. He didn't go grumbling to his corner, he made his disagreements with Don known to Don's entire cadre of warlords and casters. There can only be one captain on a ship, there can only be one king for a side. Failing to enforce discipline has it's own consequences, as discipline goes right out the window when it is voluntary. Don has a choice: Disband Caesar or die.

Caesar is also important because he is their Chief Warlord.

Caesar is only important because he is their CWL. But what happens when the CWL dies? He is replaced immediately by the next most capable (or dashing, if you are as retarded as Stanley) warlord. So I see no special significance accrued to Caesar just because he is the current holder of a very easily transferable title.

Furthermore, [Caesar ] the Chief Warlord is the person in the best position to determine if Jetstone can survive this fight to be able to repay the loan.

Survive what fight? TV has been very marginally involved with both RCC initiatives. They do have some troublesome neighbors, but then so does everyone else. And I'd think that the moneymancer would also have a pretty good idea if the loan was an overextension, without needing to consult a warlord. Benjamin already made a call, but it was based more on his own estimation of Jetstone's longevity, and less on the simple facts of the loan and terms. In fact, Don tried to tell Benjamin that the terms were favorable, but Bennie was already walking out to tattle to Caesar without even learning those terms. So here we have a caster about to present a completely one-sided viewpoint to a disgruntled CWL who is already against the strategy Don has chosen to follow with FAQ and the RCC. How is this supposed to be Benjamin looking out for Don's best interests? Bennie doesn't even have all of the information he needs to make an informed call on the loan, unless it is the very oversimplified "No loan to Jetstone is a good loan." Loans have a risk/reward ratio. Bennie knows the risk, he didn't stick around to hear the reward. He is not a neutral witness at this point.

[Oberon]

Regarding what could happen if Don loses his warlords' loyalty: a warlord managing an outlying city could potentially order the units under him to stand down and allow themselves to be captured.

They could do that, if they were suicidal. It has been well established that only casters are offered the opportunity to turn. Other units are very typically simply killed, as the loyalty of a turned unit is too low to be worth the upkeep except in the cast of the valuable and rare casters. The only non-casters we've seen offered an option to turn have been kin or lovers* of the requester (Ansom, Ossomer). This would not be the case for the warlord managing an outlying city, or any of the units under his command.

* I don't recall if Jillian offered Ansom the option to turn, I think she just grabbed him after Vanna ran out of juice making the ranged turn attempt.

[Decorus]

Charlie is worried about some stuff though. GK winning cause they don't like him so if they take out alot of sides Charlie can't get clients to pay him. With the estimations of his massive upkeep costs he needs a lot of cash. He is, or should be, worried about his neutrality being questioned, which it is starting to be.

As was explained over the summer Charlies primary source of income is his virtual monopoly on communications not his mercenary work.
Charlie is in no danger of losing mercenary work as this is just a small portion of ERFWORLD and ERFWORLD is a much bigger place.
Charlie is worried about Toolism and him being swept up in it. This entire exercise was to disprove Toolism by killing Wanda and probably getting the ArkenPliers for himself.
Remember that Jillian said that Wanda would be on Charlie's side if Jillian could break her NDA.
If Charlie wanted to he could send 600+ Archons and wipe out GK in a single turn.
GK is not a threat to Charlie at all.
Toolism on the other hand is a massive threat to his long term goals.

[Lamech]

They could do that, if they were suicidal. It has been well established that only casters are offered the opportunity to turn. Other units are very typically simply killed, as the loyalty of a turned unit is too low to be worth the upkeep except in the cast of the valuable and rare casters. The only non-casters we've seen offered an option to turn have been kin or lovers* of the requester (Ansom, Ossomer). This would not be the case for the warlord managing an outlying city, or any of the units under his command.

Right normally its only casters. But their are exceptions. For example when a fanatical side thinks they can get royals to give up everything they hold dear by talking, and are willing to give up their most valuable secret to attempt it you probably have one. The decrypted don't want to kill people. They prefer converts, even when the convert is acquired by blackmail and probably wants to kill them all.

Casters can turn. I don't believe we have evidence that they can just leave. As long as Don keeps his casters in the capitol where most sides keep their casters, they'll only hear offers to turn if the capitol is being attacked. Which is pretty much the live or die moment for any side.

Right, the Don could keep his casters in the capitol and prevent them from turning. But that also means they stay in the capitol and NOT in the MK. Once they go in the MK they can turn to any of the sides their presumably. Including a barbarian one. (Jillian asked Jack to do this when she was still a barbarian.) Sure the Don could keep his casters out of the MK, but that is just another weight on a sinking side they can ill afford. Also in all likely hood it will further anger the casters if they are cut off from any friends in the MK. Increasing the chance they turn if GK decides to attack. (Worse case scenario is they can turn via thinkagram and they can turn anyway.)

Disbanding Caesar might be a poor option, but still not be a bad idea. If you had the unfortunate choice of dismissing a highly skilled but now vocally disgruntled employee who had been a key contributor to the success of your company but who is now undermining your authority and stirring up bad publicity for the company, or being replaced as CEO of your company, you might not like the choice, but you might select to remain in your position rather than to lose it. Similarly for Don, but more seriously, killing Caesar might be his only option other than death. If he values his life, Caesar must die.

Where are you getting this idea that Ceaser will lead a coup.
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-03-04.png "Caesar had Duty and Loyalty in abundance,". I don't think Ceaser has a particularly high chance of betraying Don. He just thinks that Don is being retarded. His disagreements are likely a result of his duty and loyalty, not his lack of it.
On the other hand if they drop Ceaser they will lose an extremely high level warlord, who won't be easily replaced, and their strategy will take a major hit. Also if GK comes knocking they will in all likely hood be happy to accept converts. This is a choice between maybe stop a coup plus preventing some outbursts, or not hamstringing your side. Translovito is losing its war right now. They can't lose Ceaser or their done for.
And yes Ben disagrees with Don, and he is going to get advice of someone who is much more experienced when it comes to battles. That is the correct thing to do when making decisions.

[JohnATallon]

Caesar is also important because he is their Chief Warlord.

Caesar is only important because he is their CWL. But what happens when the CWL dies? He is replaced immediately by the next most capable (or dashing, if you are as retarded as Stanley) warlord. So I see no special significance accrued to Caesar just because he is the current holder of a very easily transferable title.

You've committed the cardinal sin of misunderstanding! Repent! Repent, sinner!

Seriously, you've missed the point I was trying to make. I used the word "also" in my first sentence because a big deal was being made by teratorn about Caesar's status as Heir and potential rebel. In addition to being Heir (an important position, no doubt), Caesar is also Chief Warlord, another important position. Chief Warlords are given tremendous latitude in how they help their side. They are second only to Ruler/Overlord in terms of agency to exercise free will. It has been implied that the title is not one normally transferred lightly, so though mechanically it may only take a simple declaration to change the title, actually doing so is a weighty and momentous occasion, as evidenced by how aghast everyone was that Stanley demoted Parson, and how the only other instances of CWL changes being made in other factions have been due to deaths. It is also heavily implied because Charlie refuses to have a CWL, even though it would save him money in administration of his city and enable Charlie to focus more exclusively on his telecom business.

Furthermore, [Caesar ] the Chief Warlord is the person in the best position to determine if Jetstone can survive this fight to be able to repay the loan.

Survive what fight? TV has been very marginally involved with both RCC initiatives. They do have some troublesome neighbors, but then so does everyone else. And I'd think that the moneymancer would also have a pretty good idea if the loan was an overextension, without needing to consult a warlord. Benjamin already made a call, but it was based more on his own estimation of Jetstone's longevity, and less on the simple facts of the loan and terms. In fact, Don tried to tell Benjamin that the terms were favorable, but Bennie was already walking out to tattle to Caesar without even learning those terms. So here we have a caster about to present a completely one-sided viewpoint to a disgruntled CWL who is already against the strategy Don has chosen to follow with FAQ and the RCC. How is this supposed to be Benjamin looking out for Don's best interests? Bennie doesn't even have all of the information he needs to make an informed call on the loan, unless it is the very oversimplified "No loan to Jetstone is a good loan." Loans have a risk/reward ratio. Bennie knows the risk, he didn't stick around to hear the reward. He is not a neutral witness at this point.

You've misunderstood again, I believe. I was not referring to Translyvito's ability to survive the fight in Spacerock. I was talking about Jetstone's ability to survive that fight, which is germane to the discussion about the loan because if Jetstone's king is croaked, Jetstone ceases to exist. Ben may have a good idea of if the loan is an overextension, but he wants to be sure if following the command will lead to ruin or not. Ben probably can budget for nine turns of lean times, but not getting the loan repaid at all (no matter what the potential profit from interest may be) because Jetstone's King and newly designated Heir were both wiped out right after the loan was made makes no sense at all. It's throwing good money after bad. Chasing a sunk cost. Anyone with some economics training can tell you that makes little sense, but only if Jetstone really is a lost cause. If Caesar can see a way for them to survive, then it makes sense for Ben to assess the potential reward and either ask for a modification of terms or make the gem. And Caesar's qualifications for being able to assess Jetstone's current situation and future survival are the best that Translyvito has ready access to.

[Chit Rule Railroad]

It has been well established that only casters are offered the opportunity to turn. Other units are very typically simply killed, as the loyalty of a turned unit is too low to be worth the upkeep except in the cast of the valuable and rare casters. The only non-casters we've seen offered an option to turn have been kin or lovers* of the requester (Ansom, Ossomer). This would not be the case for the warlord managing an outlying city, or any of the units under his command.

Parson thought he could negotiate his own survival as part of surrender terms, and Sizemore didn't contradict him. Also, there's the question of how much it costs to hire a turnamancer to Duncanize someone.

To clarify, I'm not describing a TV warlord surrendering instead of resisting a siege. I'm thinking about a TV warlord using Charlie to send an unsolicited thinkagram to Carpool, offering to flip an entire city, along with its bats, battle bears, firebirds, and dolls. There could be magically enforced conditions of not croaking him and of demoting him to a garrison unit, so he can't be sent on a suicide mission (and also so he won't be a threat to any of the Carpudlians' existing cities). Any lower-ranking warlords in the city could be offered back to TV for ransom.

Minus the magical guarantees, such things have happened in Earthworld many times. In fact, the word "warlord" is most often used to describe regions where military power is decentralized enough to allow such things to happen.

[Musrum]

The only non-casters we've seen offered an option to turn have been kin or lovers* of the requester (Ansom, Ossomer).

And Duncan Scone.

[Smoker]

The only non-casters we've seen offered an option to turn have been kin or lovers* of the requester (Ansom, Ossomer).

And Duncan Scone.

Good catch, but Oberon's point still holds. The only reason Jillian captured Duncan was because she desperately needed a warlord with some levels. She didn't have the luxury of time to expand and find allies and enemies - she was at war on her first turn as queen. So special circumstances here.

In any other case, Jillian would have just croaked him. I guess this is probably because its not worth the casters fee/juice to turn a unit you can produce over time anyway. If it was worth it, Jillian could have snagged handfulls of leveled units from Jittari by now - those yellow whales of hers seem to be pretty damn good at capturing.

But anyway, yeah. If I were a warlord on a crappy side, I wouldn't try my luck with another side. I'd find a nice harvestable hex and turn Barbarian (if that's even possible) then consider working mercenary.

[WarFAN]

Where are you getting this idea that Ceaser will lead a coup.
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-03-04.png "Caesar had Duty and Loyalty in abundance,". I don't think Ceaser has a particularly high chance of betraying Don. He just thinks that Don is being retarded. His disagreements are likely a result of his duty and loyalty, not his lack of it.

Do not forget this: Don´s only way to determine Caesar´s Loyalty and Duty is... Bunny.

[teratorn]

We didn't see any being carted off, burned, or whatever so either they are still there or they did something about them and we didn't see it. They were expecting Wanda to be croaked or captured by now so they probably didn't bother with any body securing methods. I suppose Wanda could fly back and decrypt them, but that would involve flying over hostile terrain on the next turn and leaving the battle inside the city, probably not a great proposition.

Trammenis didn't leave any units in that hex, Wanda just needs to fly there. Parson may level a few times before going back to GK (conquering Spacerock, finishing Haggar's column, conquering their capital).

[Agaric]

What strikes me as odd is how much charisma Don King has lost recently. In both gangsterworld and vampireworld only the strongest, most cunning rulers can hope to stay rulers for any significant amount of time. Plans within plans within plans, that sort of thing.
Now poor Don looks like he's definitely lost his edge, and that usually means proverbial dogs at his throat, or very real pikes through the flowers of the shirt. Poor chap, I really liked him...

[teratorn]

What strikes me as odd is how much charisma Don King has lost recently.

Jillian's fault. Had she done what was expected from her and even Caesar would now be convinced Don was doing the right thing. Caesar was right about her being unreliable and a waste of resources.

[effataigus]

Hmm, casters seem mostly exempt from the rule of "massive conformity". I'd have a hard time putting any casters in their matching sides with any confidence (with the exception of Ace and Bunny)

Bunny being a vampire does help your case though!

Really? You have seen casters who don't share the same skin/eye characteristics as their own side? Hmm.. lets see. Wanda, Jack, Jillian, all have the same pupil characteristics, Bunny looks like all of the other Transylvitians with the red eyes and skin. Sizemore and Stanley appear to be all part of the nearly lost Plaid tribe (white ovals for eyes) Not sure on Maggie - she does have gray skin but has the same eyes.

Yes Really... my rescanning (mostly from book 1) suggests:

GK
Manpower: Brown eyes with eye-whites. Also brown skin.
Stanley: Black eyes
Sizemore: White eyes
Maggie: Pink eyes and grey skin

FAQ:
Jillian: Dark blue (with eye whites) and sometimes brown eyes.
Wanda: Blue eyes (with eye whites)
Jack: Pink eyes (with eye whites) and grey skin
Marie: ? eyes (without eye whites) and brown skin

Unaroyal:
Vanna: Grey eyes
Commander Bujol McBuljol McMaster McSweeney (Sylvia): White eyes

TV:
All red eyes and grey skin except for Benjamin

JS:
Ace, Cubbins, and many warlords: White eyes
The Healomancer and the royal warlords: Blue eyes

Unless noted, skin is pink.

This does not suggest massive conformity to me! Admittedly, these numerous exceptions are possibly due to the practice of hiring casters being very common. I think you'd have a much better argument going for the comparatively massive conformity of TV warlords and casters (aside from Benjamin) though!

EDIT: Hmm, Misty was also white eyes and grey skin... I wonder if something about the eyemancer linkup left all three of them (Jack, Misty, and Maggie) with their unhealthy pallor.

[davesnothere]

I think Don honestly played this one too close to his chest.
Normally, when disaster strikes, Don can just pretend to be ignoring the problem while secretly moving against it. Say, carpool starts getting uppity, his warlords get a bit antsy and start to question him, when suddenly the seemingly disinterested don has simultaneous warlord attacks that take both carpool by surprise and also manages to take a good chunk of their cities on one turn. Everyone is impressed, everyone agrees that Don should be the man in charge. Good system.
However, this is a crisis a great deal larger with any he has had before, and he realizes this. However, he still seems to not be communicating with most of his side, instead working with Faq, who is a wild card. The problem is, suddenly nobody is impressed because the big victory part of the plan is not coming through at all today. Coupled with his reversed stance on royalism, dissent is brewing rather hot.

Personally, I think if Don would just let Caesar, or at least Ben into his plans a bit more, there wouldn't be a risk of rebellion, or if the explanation is not good enough to prevent rebellion, he should probably change his strategy anyway.

I'm still not sure where Rob is going to take us (Does JS get destroyed or not) but my Predictormancer sense is wondering if Caesar buys in and lets Don go through with this loan, or some other drama. No matter, when Parson's exploit plays out, then Caesar eyes will be opened, and he begins to see how Parson and GK are a real threat. And this will set up TV for the next conflict.

Dave.

[the_tick_rules]

That's his job, keep us guessin so we keep loggin in lol.

[Carne]

EDIT: Hmm, Misty was also white eyes and grey skin... I wonder if something about the eyemancer linkup left all three of them (Jack, Misty, and Maggie) with their unhealthy pallor.

This is what I have long assumed was the case. It was a rather prolonged link-up.