Book 2 – Text Updates 043

[Smoker]

Now that Jillian has Money, I'm expecting her to repay some to Transilvito, which would really get King Don out of the proverbial Bloop, and would mean that the money he's sending to Jetstone would actually be a good thing

Brilliant. The obvious response from anyone at TV should be "Well we gave all those Shmuckers to Faq - what do they have left over?"

A simple thinkagram to Jillian might be all it takes to bail Don King out of his problems.

"Yeah Benny I know we cant afford it, that's why Faq are going to front the money. Only we cant get it till next turn. So make the damn gem, then Faq will pay us the sum next turn. If and when we get the Shmuckers back from Jetstone, we pay it forward to Faq and pocket the interest. If Jetstone fall - that's Faq's problem, not ours. Get it? Now d'ya see where I've been heading with this whole Faq thing? Allies are good to have, Benny. Now the sooner you make the gem, the sooner we can get back to looking at this pseudo-erotic painting of my daughter.. Oh yeah, sooo glad we dont have blood-relations on Erf..."

Hang on..

[joosy]

So, we haven't seen or heard from Stanley since he was eating the huge sandwich (apparently even bigger than anybody realized) back in July. What is he going to think when he comes back to find a city razed and his chief warlord gone to the front lines after pilfering the armory?

He may react when he senses the treasury lost from the razing of Progrock and other cities. Also the expense from promoting Parson from garrison and on making the hobgobwin units heavies may get his attention soon enough. Of course the suggestion spell from Maggie may yet assuage that threat to Parson's plan.

[SteveMB]

He may react when he senses the treasury lost from the razing of Progrock and other cities. Also the expense from promoting Parson from garrison and on making the hobgobwin units heavies may get his attention soon enough. Of course the suggestion spell from Maggie may yet assuage that threat to Parson's plan.

On the one hand, victory (assuming Parson's plan actually works) covers a multitude of sins. On the other hand, Stanley's insecurities may be exacerbated by Parson's success.

On the gripping hand, one consequence of Parson's plan is to convert a lot of dwagons and other GK units from living to Decrypted, which is sure to make Stanley more worried about his position vis-a-vis Wanda.

[Sieggy]

Why? The decrypted ones become Zombie Chow next turn. Which, come to think of it, might yield some really interesting cheats for Parson to exploit later on . . .

[SteveMB]

Why? The decrypted ones become Zombie Chow next turn. Which, come to think of it, might yield some really interesting cheats for Parson to exploit later on . . .

Do they? I'm not sure the interaction between "harvesting units for food" and "decryption" necessarily works like that. Presumably, normal harvesting for food causes the unit to croak, the body to disappear during the cleanup phase at the beginning of the turn, and food to appear in larders. If there is no body to disappear because it's now a Decrypted unit, one of three things might happen:

1. The unit disappears because it was harvested (overriding decryption); food appears in larders.
2. The unit remains active (overriding harvesting); no food appears in larders.
3. The unit remains active; food appears in larders (i.e. the interaction breaks the system, producing a sploit).

[Sieggy]

. . . or you wind up with ghastly, eldrich undead food that will try to claw its way out of your gullet in one direction or another . . .

[President_Allosaurus]

It seems to me that if Jillian really wants to know whether or not Ansom is a real person and not just a talking golem, she should hire dollamancer Alant Uring to run one of his tests.

This is the best.

[boegiboe]

imany said:

I am sure Ansom is right about checking for surprises, especially since Faq is still dependent on Charlie for Vanna and probably owes a boatload of Shmuckers to Don.

Maybe it's a nit, but this keeps coming up, and I haven't seen anyone dispute it.

Vanna has nothing to do with Charlie except for the link for Kingworld. Queen Bea released Vanna and her other casters into the MK before self-disbanding, sending Don King a suicide note solemnly asking him to guarantee those casters would never work for a non-Royal side. So, Charlie can't hire Vanna. He never can.

The most plausible explanation for Vanna being on the Faq side now is that Don wanted Faq to pop an heir, and having a turnamancer would make that happen much faster. So, he suggested Jillian hire Vanna. She did, and later, when she and Charlie had their secret discussion over how they could turn the tide against GK, Charlie found out about Jillian's turnamancer and suggested KW. But Jillian is not dependent on Charlie in any way at this point.

[Althernai]

Vanna has nothing to do with Charlie except for the link for Kingworld.

This is not quite true. Charlie has been paying Jillian the money necessary to keep Vanna in her employ. Jillian will get a lot of money (about 15-20 turns worth with her current units) from sacking Gobwin Knob's cities, but since she has an heir on the way and is about to royally annoy Stanley, I don't think she will be able to pay Vanna indefinitely.

[SteveMB]

imany said:

I am sure Ansom is right about checking for surprises, especially since Faq is still dependent on Charlie for Vanna and probably owes a boatload of Shmuckers to Don.

Maybe it's a nit, but this keeps coming up, and I haven't seen anyone dispute it.

Vanna has nothing to do with Charlie except for the link for Kingworld.

Charlie originally funded Vanna's contract. She was dependent on him for that, but now that she's raising some cash by razing enemy cities this is presumably no longer the case (though she might yet find herself in financial trouble for having burned that bridge).

[MarbitChow]

The ability to convert characters cheaply (for some value of cheaply) means the notion of character is useless. If anyone's motivations can be rewritten on a whim, their personality is irrelevant. Stories cannot stand for this to happen, so Turnamancy will find itself limited by whatever Plotamancy means become plausible. And I for one could not be happier. The sooner that t-mancy is killed dead, the better.

Just out of curiosity, what are your feelings about Stockholm Syndrome, cult brainwashing, and other real-world phenomenon that exhibit identical results to Erfworld Turnamancy?

[BLANDCorporatio]

Just out of curiosity, what are your feelings about Stockholm Syndrome, cult brainwashing, and other real-world phenomenon that exhibit identical results to Erfworld Turnamancy?

Horrible waste of human life. And effort.

I mean, why bother disconnecting someone from their family and friends, systematically undermining their self-worth, while ensuring they are forced in a dependent relation to you, when you can have a Turnamancer wave an arm a lil' bit and presto, done.

[MarbitChow]

Horrible waste of human life. And effort. I mean, why bother disconnecting someone from their family and friends, systematically undermining their self-worth, while ensuring they are forced in a dependent relation to you, when you can have a Turnamancer wave an arm a lil' bit and presto, done.

But why does the effort involved in 'turning' the person matter to the story?
In a world where "mind control" is real (including Earth), why does turnamancy / mind control need to be nerfed for the sake of the story?
Wouldn't what occurs after the control is lifted have the potential to be as interesting?
You made the comment that cheaply converting characters makes the notion of character useless.
Couldn't their rationalizations while under it, and the their reactions once it's lifted add to their character?

I guess I don't see why mind-control / -manipulation as a story-telling device cheapens the character at all.
If anything, it could add depth (reactions once manipulation is broken adding additional motivations) or pathos (we know the character is screwed, but the character can't see it themselves) or any number of complications that can advance plot.

[Beeskee]

We may just be seeing game-like statistics and mechanics of what would feel like a natural process. Say that part of the turning process is offering a choice to the captured troops, either join the new side, or leave with enough rations to make their way home. About half accept. That would fit the description we were given of the "mass-turning spell" without actually depriving the units of choice. Now, I realize that the part afterwards is described as Vanna turning those failed units individually. That could also take the form of persuasion, discussion, etc. Even if the results are described by world-inherent game-like mechanics, it doesn't exclude the units from actually making decisions.

Free will is something that is hard to prove. Humans are a great big self-sustaining complex chemical reaction, when you get right down to it. How much of our "free will" can be proven to be real?

[SteveMB]

We may just be seeing game-like statistics and mechanics of what would feel like a natural process. Say that part of the turning process is offering a choice to the captured troops, either join the new side, or leave with enough rations to make their way home. About half accept. That would fit the description we were given of the "mass-turning spell" without actually depriving the units of choice. Now, I realize that the part afterwards is described as Vanna turning those failed units individually. That could also take the form of persuasion, discussion, etc. Even if the results are described by world-inherent game-like mechanics, it doesn't exclude the units from actually making decisions.

We have one suggestive description:

That level 6 Jitterati warlord, Duncan Scone, was now her best fighter. Vanna had done some good work to turn him, but the dungeon didn't much interest Jillian. Vanna didn't really know how to play right.

Apparently, at least one method a Turnamancer might use in turning units is to work them over in the dungeon (though they might not quite have a knack for translating those skills to recreational use.)

[Beeskee]

We have one suggestive description:

That level 6 Jitterati warlord, Duncan Scone, was now her best fighter. Vanna had done some good work to turn him, but the dungeon didn't much interest Jillian. Vanna didn't really know how to play right.

Apparently, at least one method a Turnamancer might use in turning units is to work them over in the dungeon (though they might not quite have a knack for translating those skills to recreational use.)

Yeah that would fall under "persuasion"

Edit: I'm not saying it WILL be like what I described, I was just thinking of possible examples. It'd be like capturing and converting a unit in Civilization or Homeworld another game like that, we don't really know what goes on during that process, and it's probably better left to the imagination. But the game itself just "abstracts" it. You click the thingy, and the guy gets converted. HOW it's done, and WHY they decide to turn, is usually undescribed, tho it might be implied that it's done a certain way.

I actually got my example from Girl Genius. Those terms (join us or go home with a month's pay) were apparently the standard surrender terms Wulfenbach offered to captured enemy soldiers.

[cheeseaholic]

Free will is something that is hard to prove. Humans are a great big self-sustaining complex chemical reaction, when you get right down to it. How much of our "free will" can be proven to be real?

That would depend on the definition of "free will".


As for Vanna, and the other casters working for Charlie or any other non-royal side, I don't think that Duty or Loyalty to a side exist after that side ends, so they can choose to work for whomever they want to work for. Unless maybe you're spelled to obey someone, like Parson is. I wonder if that would affect the loyalty roll or whatever for being able to disobey or to avoid being disbanded....

[the_tick_rules]

And then you're brain explodes from going in that logical circle.

[mp122984]

. . . or you wind up with ghastly, eldrich undead food that will try to claw its way out of your gullet in one direction or another . . .

I keep thinking of Bio Meat in this scenario. o.o Actually, I've been thinking it ever since I thought the big plan was "Use popped meat rations to screen against the tower spells."

[Shusagi]

Yeah, I think a decrypted have about as much free will as any other unit. It all comes down to that "loyalty" stat. In the end, all units HAVE to fight to preserve their side. The concept of free will is way beyond the scope of what's being discussed here- I think the better idea is to compare the varying degrees of choice between regular infantry, warlords, casters, the decrypted versions, etc. rather than get into the nitpicky philosophical debate, because unlike the debate of free will, the debate of the varying degrees of choice between the different unit types (and decrypted/non-decrypted) can actually come to a conclusion, while the free will one will almost definitely not.