Book 2 - Page 55

[JohnATallon]

I actually did not support your point.

You did indeed support my point and you did indeed refute your earlier assertion, you just want to avoid that reality now. But this is not possible. You can dodge, but you cannot avoid the record of history.

In any case there is an explicit statement about loyalty made in LIAB_Text_16, "A Ruler does not simply disband his top warlord in a time of crisis, or ever. And if a Ruler did disband a popular warlord, it could affect the Duty and Loyalty of all other units on the side," which I believe completely refutes your argument anyway.

Don's issues with his insubordinate CWL is not a counter to my position. Don may not want to disband Caesar and appoint a new CWL, but we have seen an overlord replace a CWL and not have his casters turn in droves. The position that disbanding Caesar would cause such a caster or warlord turning is purely speculative and contrary to the historical record.

Please take extra time to comprehensively read, and take care to not fall into the trap of seizing on the first statement that even slightly seems odd to you.

Ok, I'll play along. You said:

if Jetstone's king is croaked, Jetstone ceases to exist.

A false statement, since Tram will become the Jetstone heir if the loan is approved, but you insist upon ignoring that reality. You appear to enjoy your cake and eat it also:
"Caesar is also important because he is their Chief Warlord." I've pointed out that Don would be better off without Caesar as his CWL, and backed that with a rational discussion. This is not a case of "seizing on the first statement" made, despite your attempts to misrepresent the discussion. If anyone is "seizing on the first statement" here, it is you.

I did not support your statement. If Jack changed his mind because he felt loyalty to Stanley, that would have supported your statement. Jack changed his mind because he is loyal to Parson. My point about him not turning because he did not love Jillian enough to play second fiddle to Ansom does not support your argument that Jack's loyalty was not damaged by Parson's demotion. The implication in Jack even considering the offer to turn, and in what he said to Wanda about being a trophy, is that if Jack were going to be first in Jillian's heart he would have joined Faq. Love can trump Loyalty but only in some circumstances. In this case Jack's crush on Jillian did not trump his loyalty to Parson (not Stanley, as Jack explicitly made reference to Parson).

In our Gobwin Knob example, most of the casters of Gobwin Knob wanted to stay anway. Wanda didn't want to leave because she had an easy power base to exploit in Stanley, Maggie wanted to stay to watch over Parson (who is important to her group of thinkamancer plotters), and Seizemore found a rather frosty reception in the Magic Kingdom. Where would he turn to? The Toolism rhetoric being spewed by Ansom polarized all sides that Seizemore knew about into Toolist and Anti-Toolist factions. As valuable as he is, he'd still have had a hard time being accepted by an Anti-Toolist group. Additionally, Seizemore was getting pep-talks and reassurance from Janis, encouragement to continue to follow Parson (and thus remain with Stanley's side so long as Parson did).

Your obsession with the state of future conditions in Jetstone is making you look silly. I did not expect to have to spell it out explicitly, because most of this is self evident. I will spell it out as completely as I can for your benefit.

As of the last comic, at the moment when Ben was talking to Don King about the game, Jetstone had a single point of failure in King Slately. Right up to the point that the gem is cashed in by Slately and Slately officially declares Tramennis his heir (a process that may or may not require them to be in the same room, as the only example we have of a unit being promoted to Heir is back in book 1, during the flashback when Parson was told about how Saline IV promoted Stanley) there is a single point of failure. This is self evident. This is the reason for much of the activity in the past five or six comics. So until that point is passed, there is a single point of failure. When I made reference to King Slately being the point of failure, this is the situation I was making reference to. Even after the loan is made and sent there will be a period of time where King Slately is the single point of failure, and a subsequent period where both the King and the Heir are in the exact same situation.

Once Slately makes Trammenis the Crown Prince, there will be two points of failure for the entire side of Jetstone. They're still in a precarious position because there is an enemy in the same hex with both of them which is completely capable of eating their army and spitting it back at them. They've left the air route closed for escape, there was no tunnel route to begin with, and the ground route for escape requires punching through the enemy army in the atrium. It's very possible that neither the King, nor his newly named Heir, will escape that, even if they try two different approaches to escape. Worse, since they are escaping by ground, there's no guarantee that the surviving King and Heir, or just King, will be able to make it to safety before Gobwin Knob's forces catch up to them. That's Ben's reasoning, and he is right to think that way. That has been my point all along, and everything else has been in support of it.

You can get as upset as you want over what I say, but until you demonstrate the skills I asked you to, you're just huffing and puffing.

[Housellama]

Drongo, archons aren't casters, they can't use the portals.

If this is so then Parson could still get Wanda to decrypt archons when they arrive at Charlie's city with casters. They could immediately summon creatures to help when they get there. They can do this off turn before Charlie can react.
This would also prevent Charlie from copying the off-turn portal tactic so GK would be safe from an immediate attack.

There is absolutely nothing Parson can do based on what he knows about Charlie's forces to beat Charlie if Charlie attacks in force.
Parson does not have the troops to defend against Charlie's 600+ Archons.
Charlie needs to keep his appearance of neutrality and as such will not act against Parson directly.
Charlie has no reason to attack MK as that would disrupt the appearance of his neutrality.
Charlie's entire actions in this battle have not been to hurt Parson, but rather prove that Toolism is invalid as a philosophy.

Attacking Charlie before he can react would be Parson's best defence. Eliminate and recruit his biggest threat. Charlie isn't trustworthy enough to be an ally.
The illusion of Charlie's neutrality will undoubtedly be shed when Parson speaks with the newly decrypted troops. Adam may have already spilled the beans to Jack and Wanda. Charlie almost organised Wanda's demise and the downfall of GK. Charlie doesn't seem to be regarded as a neutral force in the MK with the thinkamancers and others treating him as their enemy.
Charlie wouldn't want to attack the MK but Parson might. Guess it would all depend on how useful a decrypted caster is.
Charlie seems eager to capture and turn Parson. His recent discussion with Jillian might persuade him that he can capture and turn Wanda too.

A head to head with Charlie solves nothing.

For one thing, Charlie isn't his biggest direct threat. Charlie is a long term threat, yes and something to be wary of. However, if Charlie wanted GK and Parson off the board bad enough to move directly, the man's got some 600 Archons. They may be under contract, but they are intensely loyal to him. They'd break whatever contract they were under if Charlie told them to. And even 600 low level Archons would give any side a run for it's money. Charlie's no dummy. When he finally played the brute force card against Haggar, he played it very well. He knows how to fight directly. No, Charlie doesn't want to fight head to head, and the GK army has better things to do with their time. Like take out Tram before he reaches his full potential.

Second, Charlie is practically the DEFINITION of 'hard target'. Even if we give you a small army invading through the basement without warning, Charlie's got a fully garrisoned level 5 City. Even if we add in Wanda's Decryption trick, that's still a tough nut to crack. And my favorite, we really have absolutely no idea what the Arkendish is capable of in direct combat. If people are afraid that he can do mind control through thinkagrams, do you really think he can't seriously screw up people face to face? Even decrypted troops? Even casters? Even if he can't Thinkamancy the troops to fighting each other, he could almost certainly keep them busy enough for the heavies to make mincemeat of them. And those are some BIG ifs. IF you can get an army to him. IF you can take him by surprise.

No, Charlie's not an enemy you beat through brute force. GK's army has other targets. Right now, the only person who has to worry about beating Charlie is Parson, and that battle is going on inside their heads and on the battlefields of Erfworld.

[the_tick_rules]

He does have a big weakness indeed in finance. As he does not conquer or control schumcker producing cities (besides his one) he is completely reliant on fees from his mercenary and thinkamancy work. A coordinated boycott could ruin him.

[Shusagi]

Holy crap. It took me this long to realize.. You guys are actually getting emotionally invested in this. Not the comic, no, I get emotionally invested too. I mean the argument. You're actually getting upset at each other over a speculative argument over a comic. Not all of you, maybe not most of you. But some of you are actually taking this argument seriously, taking potshots, and getting upset, at an argument over theoretical future events in the fictional world of an online comic.

.. That's my two cents. I never was much for actually guessing what happened. I've honestly been surprised most of the way by the comic, maybe because I'm not good at thinking ahead, or maybe because I haven't read a lot of books/watched a lot of movies. Which is why I come here. I think I'll still read these discussions, it's just a little offputting now that I've realized some of you are actually getting upset and angry and are taking personal shots at each other over a comic.

[Althernai]

Don's issues with his insubordinate CWL is not a counter to my position. Don may not want to disband Caesar and appoint a new CWL, but we have seen an overlord replace a CWL and not have his casters turn in droves. The position that disbanding Caesar would cause such a caster or warlord turning is purely speculative and contrary to the historical record.

Actually, in the instance of an overlord replacing a CWL that we saw, the caster was insubordinate and later conspired to have the CWL reinstated by using mind-control on the overlord -- and this is despite the fact that the CWL agreed with the overlord's decision to replace him. Also, Don is in a very different situation from the one above. Most notably, he doesn't have a level 10 warlord standing by and ready to take over. In fact, it's not obvious who can replace his CWL since Transylvito has lost several warlords recently and the ones that remain appear to be mostly of the same persuasion as Caesar.

[Angband]

Holy crap. It took me this long to realize.. You guys are actually getting emotionally invested in this. Not the comic, no, I get emotionally invested too. I mean the argument. You're actually getting upset at each other over a speculative argument over a comic. Not all of you, maybe not most of you. But some of you are actually taking this argument seriously, taking potshots, and getting upset, at an argument over theoretical future events in the fictional world of an online comic.

.. That's my two cents. I never was much for actually guessing what happened. I've honestly been surprised most of the way by the comic, maybe because I'm not good at thinking ahead, or maybe because I haven't read a lot of books/watched a lot of movies. Which is why I come here. I think I'll still read these discussions, it's just a little offputting now that I've realized some of you are actually getting upset and angry and are taking personal shots at each other over a comic.

What you don't seem to understand is that someone is WRONG on the internet.

[Housellama]

I disagree, I think Charlie is the primary target as soon as GK eliminates the sides that genuinely want to destroy them, mostly Faq Jetstone and Transylvito, and then make non aggression pacts with the rest who are more... apathetic to decryption, so long as it doesn't happen to them. Once that is done, use charlie's weaknesses against him. Pulling back all 600 of his archons involves breaking a lot of magically binding contracts that he would be paying for breaking, which would at least be a blow to his finances, combined with massive upkeep and near loss of all income due to recall, he would bankrupt himself before you even closed in on him.
Furthermore, massed dwagons are greater than archons, and so long as wanda is ordered not to do anything stupid and just decrypt archons once battle is over, you will get very very large numbers of archons which cost you absolutely no upkeep, compared to charlie who they were eating out of house and home. When you finally reach his city, divide your forces, send in just enough dwagons and archons to reasonably take the city and then he has to decide between firing off his defences, which would then be expended, or fight and possibly lose the city. Should wave one fail, in goes wave two with more leadership, all new decrypted archons, all remaining dwagons, etc. This is just one city people, charlie is up in his tower and we just need to cwap our way in to seal the deal. Charlecomm, over with.

All emphasis mine.

First point. You're agreeing with me. I stated that Charlie is a LONG TERM THREAT. There's a lion over there in the lair, there's a lion circling, and there's a lion trying to eat your face. Which do you deal with first? The lion watching everything from his lair? Or the one that's got his claws in your liver and is making a spirited attempt to chew your ears off by removing everything in between them? Right. First you deal with the immediate threat. Then you deal with the one that is about to become an immediate threat. THEN you turn your attention to the one taking a siesta in the shade.

Second point. Massed dwagons are greater than Archons if you know they are coming. We don't know where Charlescomm is. Furthermore, who said anything about Charlie needing to break contracts. I said IF HE NEEDED TO. He most certainly doesn't. I'll address how what I would do in just a moment. First, let me address my...

Third point. We only know about Charlie what Parson knows. And Parson only knows the Archons know. And the Archons only really know what Charlie told them, and/or allowed them to know.. Which means that all that information is suspect. Charlie may have multiple cities. We don't know. What we do know is that we have a proven strategist with superior intelligence gathering abilities and potential mind control abilities. Any information that we, the readers, have about him is potentially wrong. Now, for reasons of good story, most of the information we have is probably at least somewhat accurate. But we have to suspect all the important information because it's plausible that it could be wrong.

Finally. If I were Charlie and I wanted to take out GK, here's what I would do. Slowly filter Archons into the mountains around GK. As Archons finish contracts, point them to the mountains. Get several stacks out there under foolamancy. Keep them hidden out there, within two or three turns move of GK. Wait until you've got several hundred archons out there under veils. Wait til the GK army is busy elsewhere, with Wanda out elsewhere. Then hit GK itself. Surgical strike. Use Leader lead heavily loaded stacks to target Stanley. Boom. No ruler, no heir, no side. Decrypted become neutral or dust right there, Wanda either goes neutral or barbarian and becomes an easy target herself. I'd make sure to have a couple big stacks of Archons within a turn of her too. Hit her on the same turn, just after she goes neutral.

Charlie's smart enough to think of this. He's got the resources and the manpower to pull it off. If he REALLY wanted GK and Wanda out of play bad enough, he could take them out of play. But he doesn't. So either he wants them out of play, but not badly enough to really worry about it, or he has some other motive in mind. Or possibly both.

Besides, Parson and Charlie have been dueling since Charlie first introduced himself. Last time they spoke, Parson was winning. Since then, Charlie may have turned the tables, but it's hard to tell. THAT'S how you really beat Charlie. You out-think him.

[Housellama]

Holy crap. It took me this long to realize.. You guys are actually getting emotionally invested in this. Not the comic, no, I get emotionally invested too. I mean the argument. You're actually getting upset at each other over a speculative argument over a comic. Not all of you, maybe not most of you. But some of you are actually taking this argument seriously, taking potshots, and getting upset, at an argument over theoretical future events in the fictional world of an online comic.

.. That's my two cents. I never was much for actually guessing what happened. I've honestly been surprised most of the way by the comic, maybe because I'm not good at thinking ahead, or maybe because I haven't read a lot of books/watched a lot of movies. Which is why I come here. I think I'll still read these discussions, it's just a little offputting now that I've realized some of you are actually getting upset and angry and are taking personal shots at each other over a comic.

Nah. I'm just bored at work and enjoy a good debate.

[Squishalot]

I don't think Archons have siege abilities. GK could just hole up in the Garrison / Tower, close the siege doors and be perfectly safe.

[Oberon]

Don's issues with his insubordinate CWL is not a counter to my position. Don may not want to disband Caesar and appoint a new CWL, but we have seen an overlord replace a CWL and not have his casters turn in droves. The position that disbanding Caesar would cause such a caster or warlord turning is purely speculative and contrary to the historical record.

Actually, in the instance of an overlord replacing a CWL that we saw, the caster was insubordinate and later conspired to have the CWL reinstated by using mind-control on the overlord -- and this is despite the fact that the CWL agreed with the overlord's decision to replace him. Also, Don is in a very different situation from the one above. Most notably, he doesn't have a level 10 warlord standing by and ready to take over. In fact, it's not obvious who can replace his CWL since Transylvito has lost several warlords recently and the ones that remain appear to be mostly of the same persuasion as Caesar.

Maggy using her suggestion dust on Stanley is not an example of a caster being disloyal after the replacement of a CWL. Maggie did what she did because she honestly felt that to do otherwise would lead to the destruction of the GK expeditionary force, to the great reduction of Stanley's ability to carry on his toolist campaign. Her insubordination was right in line with Wanda refusing to promote the next pretty boy, because she felt that it would lead to Stanley's destruction. Your mention that Parson agreed with Stanley's decision only adds support to the argument that Maggie doesn't care what Stanley or Parson want, she only cares to accomplish what is best for GK. That is the epitome of loyalty, as any sycophant can stand by and let you ruin yourself.

All of the GK casters seem to be very loyal to Stanley, despite their various reasons for disliking him. Wanda felt he was an idiot and would come and die against the FAQ defenders and bring her the 'hammer, and then used him to search for other 'tools so she could attune; Sizemore is treated *ahem* like shit by Stanley; Jack had two chances to turn, one right after being blasted into insanity by Maggie, both times into close proximity with his crush and former heir of his side, which Stanley toppled; Maggie seems to completely despise Stanley for his blindness where Parson is concerned, and yet still acts in his best interests... There isn't really much except for some epileptic trees to even suggest that any of Stanley's casters are feeling froggy, and that includes Wanda.

As for Don, any level CWL is better than a L10 (or whatever) CWL who spreads dissension in the ranks. Stanley makes due with a L2 CWL, so can Don.

I don't think Archons have siege abilities. GK could just hole up in the Garrison / Tower, close the siege doors and be perfectly safe.

Er, no. Charlie sent enough archons to take the GK garrison in a single turn. And they brought the means to capture Parson. They are not at all helpless against a buttoned up tower.

[Squishalot]

Hm, you are right. Reading more into it, you can enter the garrison from the airspace, but you need siege to enter via the outer walls.

Point conceded.

[Housellama]

Firstly, thank you for putting this into a convenient point by point format, it is nice.

Secondly, I don't think we are really agreeing. You see, right this moment charlie is messing with the protagonist, but he can't actually marshal his great force to threaten GK. His situation is quite fragile. The only thing to be gained from waiting is allowing him to do whatever long term nasty thing he can do to try and put a stop to you, and we know he must have something like that or else he would take the financial hit and try to decapitate GK in one blow if he really thought they would be the end of all of erf if not stopped. So while we agree on not attacking him immediately, GK needs to actively stop provoking anyone else instead of trying to outthink charlie. The man has a thinkamany artifact, just smack him in the head, don't get into his "game of riddles" or what have you.

Secondly, we do know exactly where the archons will be, either at charlie's capital or on the way TO charlies capital, or maybe charlie will pull a wild card and spring for taking out GK, this could be dealt with rather easily however on GK's side, meanwhile charlie is again, stuck up in his tower.

Thirdly, The Archons information is damned reliable. For one thing, it comes from an artifact that totally reverses loyalty, they are spilling their guts. Charlie may have been filling their head with crap but that is not really important when speaking of decapitating strikes. Secondly, I have a very good guess as to where charlescomm is located ( http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F042.jpg ) , and the Archons certainly know where it is. As to the multiple cities, Charlie is in Charlescomm, so it doesn't really matter. Unless he just left the Arkendish there while he hides out in a bubble kingdom, and if that is so, I am sure Parson would take it off his hands.

Fourthly, sneaking an army of archons into GK's battlespace (which will cause turn order to change alerting GK for the record), with GK Archons on Dwagon scouting runs? Good luck. Might work, might not, but I am not disputing that GK CAN be killed by Charlescomm, only that giving him TIME to filter in those Archons is a dumb move and that Charlie is public enemy #2.

Sure thing. It's easier for me that way because it helps me keep my own thoughts organized.

I disagree about Charlie's situation. From where I'm sitting, Charlie's got the most secure position on the board right now. He's got a secure fortress, he's got quite literally the best information gathering abilities in Erfworld, he's got the ability to pop a pretty bad ass Knight-class troop every turn. And most of all, nobody (aside from Parson/GK and maybe Haggar and FAQ) think of him as an active enemy. JS is wary of him, but don't consider him an enemy. And he's still got contracts in places we've only heard of, and HAVEN'T heard of.

As far as the archons talking to GK... Yes. They are telling the absolute, unvarnished truth. The truth as they know it. Which might be completely inaccurate. If you remember, none of the 'lower' archons had any personal contact with Charlie, except through Thinkamancy. They only interacted with his personal guard. Nobody but presumably them has actually SEEN Charlie. Plus, there's the Arkendish. Everything they believe they know could be a complete fabrication. After all, we only have Charlie's word for it.

I'm not exactly sure where you're getting your information about where the archons will be. I'm not sure I follow your logic there. But I'm not really sure it matters.

You don't take on an enemy that knows more than you and has an artifact that can potentially control your mind head on. And here's why.

Aside from some extreme tin-foil hattery, as far as we know, the Arkentools have no will of their own (aside from deciding who they like best). They must be used. Those tools may or may not have limitations. We don't yet know. But we do know that the users must actively use them to access their powers. We also know from Stanley that even those linked to the tools may not know everything about them. Which means the Tool is only as effective as the person using it.

We must presume that Charlie will be able to severely influence any troops that try to make a direct assault on the castle. Until we know otherwise, we have to assume that, because Thinkamancy is capable of that. And Charlie is smart enough to use the Arkendish for such a basic application. In addition, he is in a position that is prepared for that kind of invasion. One of the first rules of war is never fight on the ground chosen by your enemy. Charlie has planned, extensively, for precisely that scenario. In addition, he has superior, in fact unmatched, information gathering abilities. Any plan that is broadcast via thinkamancy should be considered compromised immediately. In other words, 'smacking him in the head' and taking his toys is pretty much a moot point. It ain't gonna happen.

Parson can't beat the Arkendish. But he can make it a non-issue. How do you beat an enemy who has more technology and information than you do? By out-thinking him. You go low tech. You use other methods of communication. You use unconventional methods of war. If you don't use thinkamancy to pass orders, then the Arkendish can't hear it. And while we assume that Charlie can get info about where people are, it doesn't necessarily tell them what they are doing. In the intelligence community, raw data is often worse than useless. Data needs context. A lot of facts and figures are often meaningless. Meaning only comes when you know what you are looking for. Data without context merely clouds the issue. So while the Arkendish can provide Charlie with a lot of data, Charlie is the one who has to put it into context. Without context, Charlie might not know what's going on until it's too late. That also takes care of using the Arkendish in combat. The tool is only as good as the person using it. Trick Charlie's mind, and the Arkendish is meaningless.

So in fact, the ONLY way to ever really make an effective move against Charlie is to out-think him. And that's EXACTLY the war that Parson has been waging against Charlie since Charlie first hit the scene in the first book.

[Chit Rule Railroad]

I don't think Archons have siege abilities. GK could just hole up in the Garrison / Tower, close the siege doors and be perfectly safe.

In addition to being able to attack the Garrison from the Airspace or Tunnels without siege, remember that Charlie's other unit is cloth golems, such as battle bears. Presumably they were made by archons with the dollamancy special, and we don't know if golems can be made in the field.


My impression, and I admit I can't prove it, is that if Charlie recalled his archons from their assignments, many of them would disband from lack of upkeep before even reaching GK or Charlescomm. Though if they were caster-like enough to stage in Portal Park en masse through various capital cities' portals, that could get interesting...


Beating Charlie will probably involve secret alliances. Charlie will find out about some of them, but not all of them. He has no real friends.

[Housellama]

As to the "potential mind control" issue, well Gobwin Knob has the power of mind control already. It seems that, should the Arkentools really "cancel out" each other, then our mind control would at least not get trumped by his own. Or that his mind control would only effect living units (in which case you decrypt the dwagons, problem solved)

I think we're talking past each other. It's not that I'm against kicking the door in. I'm just against doing it the wrong way.

Currently, we don't know whether or not the Dwagons and the Decrypted can be affected by Thinkamancy. And even if they aren't affected by NORMAL Thinkamancy, we don't know whether or not the Arkendish may allow Thinkamancy to affect them. Yes, there are Tools on both sides, but WE DON'T KNOW. We also know next to nothing about Charlescomm the city. We don't know where it is, we don't know much of anything solid about its defenses. Finally, we don't know how Charlie will react to an assault. We don't know which way he'll jump.

THAT'S the biggest problem with just straight up storming the castle. We don't have enough information. Until Parson (and by extension, we the readers), know whether or not the Arkendish can screw them up in direct combat, a good strategist has to assume it will. If he storms the castle and finds out that the Arkendish can make his troops fight themselves, that could seriously boop them up. That would be a disaster of epic proportions. So until you DO know, you can't just march an army to his doorstep and kick in the door.

Instead, you play mind-games. You don't beat the TOOL. You beat the PERSON. The Arkendish is pretty awesome, but it's only as good as Charlie is. And if Charlie has no idea what's going on until you've got a Dwagon in his living room, then he's screwed. But before you can do that, you have to screw with Charlie's head, and learn everything you can about Charlie, Charlescomm and the Arkendish. Once you can predict how Charlie's going to react with reasonable certainty, AND you know what your enemy is capable of, THEN you can kick the door in. Because you can then do it PROPERLY.

Know your enemy, know yourself. Right now, GK doesn't know it's enemy.