Oberon wrote:You did indeed support my point and you did indeed refute your earlier assertion, you just want to avoid that reality now. But this is not possible. You can dodge, but you cannot avoid the record of history.JohnATallon wrote:I actually did not support your point.Don's issues with his insubordinate CWL is not a counter to my position. Don may not want to disband Caesar and appoint a new CWL, but we have seen an overlord replace a CWL and not have his casters turn in droves. The position that disbanding Caesar would cause such a caster or warlord turning is purely speculative and contrary to the historical record.JohnATallon wrote:In any case there is an explicit statement about loyalty made in LIAB_Text_16, "A Ruler does not simply disband his top warlord in a time of crisis, or ever. And if a Ruler did disband a popular warlord, it could affect the Duty and Loyalty of all other units on the side," which I believe completely refutes your argument anyway.Ok, I'll play along. You said:JohnATallon wrote:Please take extra time to comprehensively read, and take care to not fall into the trap of seizing on the first statement that even slightly seems odd to you.A false statement, since Tram will become the Jetstone heir if the loan is approved, but you insist upon ignoring that reality. You appear to enjoy your cake and eat it also:JohnATallon wrote:if Jetstone's king is croaked, Jetstone ceases to exist.
"Caesar is also important because he is their Chief Warlord." I've pointed out that Don would be better off without Caesar as his CWL, and backed that with a rational discussion. This is not a case of "seizing on the first statement" made, despite your attempts to misrepresent the discussion. If anyone is "seizing on the first statement" here, it is you.
I did not support your statement. If Jack changed his mind because he felt loyalty to Stanley, that would have supported your statement. Jack changed his mind because he is loyal to Parson. My point about him not turning because he did not love Jillian enough to play second fiddle to Ansom does not support your argument that Jack's loyalty was not damaged by Parson's demotion. The implication in Jack even considering the offer to turn, and in what he said to Wanda about being a trophy, is that if Jack were going to be first in Jillian's heart he would have joined Faq. Love can trump Loyalty but only in some circumstances. In this case Jack's crush on Jillian did not trump his loyalty to Parson (not Stanley, as Jack explicitly made reference to Parson).
In our Gobwin Knob example, most of the casters of Gobwin Knob wanted to stay anway. Wanda didn't want to leave because she had an easy power base to exploit in Stanley, Maggie wanted to stay to watch over Parson (who is important to her group of thinkamancer plotters), and Seizemore found a rather frosty reception in the Magic Kingdom. Where would he turn to? The Toolism rhetoric being spewed by Ansom polarized all sides that Seizemore knew about into Toolist and Anti-Toolist factions. As valuable as he is, he'd still have had a hard time being accepted by an Anti-Toolist group. Additionally, Seizemore was getting pep-talks and reassurance from Janis, encouragement to continue to follow Parson (and thus remain with Stanley's side so long as Parson did).
Your obsession with the state of future conditions in Jetstone is making you look silly. I did not expect to have to spell it out explicitly, because most of this is self evident. I will spell it out as completely as I can for your benefit.
As of the last comic, at the moment when Ben was talking to Don King about the game, Jetstone had a single point of failure in King Slately. Right up to the point that the gem is cashed in by Slately and Slately officially declares Tramennis his heir (a process that may or may not require them to be in the same room, as the only example we have of a unit being promoted to Heir is back in book 1, during the flashback when Parson was told about how Saline IV promoted Stanley) there is a single point of failure. This is self evident. This is the reason for much of the activity in the past five or six comics. So until that point is passed, there is a single point of failure. When I made reference to King Slately being the point of failure, this is the situation I was making reference to. Even after the loan is made and sent there will be a period of time where King Slately is the single point of failure, and a subsequent period where both the King and the Heir are in the exact same situation.
Once Slately makes Trammenis the Crown Prince, there will be two points of failure for the entire side of Jetstone. They're still in a precarious position because there is an enemy in the same hex with both of them which is completely capable of eating their army and spitting it back at them. They've left the air route closed for escape, there was no tunnel route to begin with, and the ground route for escape requires punching through the enemy army in the atrium. It's very possible that neither the King, nor his newly named Heir, will escape that, even if they try two different approaches to escape. Worse, since they are escaping by ground, there's no guarantee that the surviving King and Heir, or just King, will be able to make it to safety before Gobwin Knob's forces catch up to them. That's Ben's reasoning, and he is right to think that way. That has been my point all along, and everything else has been in support of it.
You can get as upset as you want over what I say, but until you demonstrate the skills I asked you to, you're just huffing and puffing.