Book 2 – Page 56

[GaryThunder]

Not twoll, clearly. But what do you suggest? We've got two heirs popping right now. Have either been referred to as a warlord, ever? Are you suggesting that you have to be a warlord to be an overlord or king? If you are, I don't think there is any backing for that theory. Is it fuzzy? You bet.

Every single heir or potential heir we've seen with their unit type identified (Stanley, Caesar, Ansom, Ossomer, Tramennis, Jillian, Sammy) has been a warlord. The burden of proof would seem to be on those who claim that being a warlord isn't necessary.

[joosy]

One of the underlying themes in Erfworld - in fact showcased in a flashback discussion between Wanda and Jack - is What is love in Erfworld? Is it a knowable stat? Can it be influenced? Is it just extreme loyalty or something that has an independent influence on loyalty?

Wanda loves Jillian, Jillian loves Wanda and Ansom (Vinny is just an Ansom substitute, I think), Ansom used to love Jillian but now is loyal (loves?) Wanda as well, Jack loves Jillian (but is somewhat more loyal to Wanda), Caesar loves Bunny and (we assume) Bunny loves him back.

I know the Greeks had different words for different types of love and I wonder if that concept has found roots in Erfworld. Perhaps they are trying to determine if it is a knowable stat and, like everything else, just assign it a number to indicate strength or intensity.

It will be interesting to see what affect Bunny's love has in the upcoming confrontation between Caesar and Don King.

[Oberon]

Bear in mind that disbanding Caesar would also cause Don to lose Benjamin. Benny is not going to stick around after Don murders his top warlord and dooms his side just so he can further doom his side by blowing his treasury. He'll either turn, go through the MK portal and stay there, or just provoke Don into disbanding him if he had no other option.

And though Don has no way of knowing this, how do you think Bunny would take Don disbanding Caesar?

Might cause... Might cause Benjamin to look to turn. And this could take dozens or hundreds of turns. Benjamin is in the capitol, after all. How often do you think he has access to enemy warlords? As for just ducking into the MK portal, well, that's what the portal guards are for, if need be. Bunny... Someone else speculated that she's Don's way of keeping tabs on Caesar. I'm not wearing that tin foil cap, but her turning has all the same issues as Benjamin turning. She'd need an opportunity to add to what you are assuming would be her motive.

Every single heir or potential heir we've seen with their unit type identified (Stanley, Caesar, Ansom, Ossomer, Tramennis, Jillian, Sammy) has been a warlord. The burden of proof would seem to be on those who claim that being a warlord isn't necessary.

Not when they aren't referred to as warlords when they are popping. We do know that units can be promoted to warlord, after all. But to call something by one label and assume that it also implies another label is not logical thinking.

And a few of your examples are just plain silly for your position. We know for a fact that Stanley started as a piker, and was promoted to warlord. You're just supporting my position there.

[Chit Rule Railroad]

Time for my wall of text
....
2. Jillian should stick to the idea hitting weak GK cities on the way back to Faq, but be very choosy about her targets in terms of cover available after hitting them, how far she can be from them at turn's end and how strong she will be after hitting them. From what we've seen of Dwagons, they have higher move than base gwiffons (I suspect Megalos aren't much better, but can be sure.) After the drop, there is no guarantee that Wanda won't have a sizable force of fliers in the form of decrypted dwagons and unipegitaurs that will have the option of hitting Jillian next turn if they can find her. (Both Jillian and the Dwagons should be considered as starting with full move from Spacerock in terms of logistics. In turn based logic, Jillian has no headstart in terms of distance.) The option of hitting Brookstone this turn disappears right out the window with this logic as any commander with a brain could probably look at a map containing Brookstone and Spacerock and Jillian’s reported move at the start of the turn, (remember, commanders can see unit stats and Jack and Wanda were both Faq units before, so they have experience with Megalos,) and draw the proper conclusion as to her probable location.

Hmm, Jillian may be in a position to choose whether the Spacerock refugees are led by Slately or Trammenis. I wonder which situation would more effectively divert GK from pursuing her?

It could be that loaning the money to promote Trammenis would allow Jillian to raze more cities. She might be able to recover the cost of the loan that way, with any repayments from Jetstone just icing on the cake.


Incidentally, the Spacerock refugee group will probably include the unipegataurs (and the TTRAP), so once they leave the city hex they will probably take to the air and rival the dwagons in terms of move. I believe the unipegataurs started the turn in Spacerock rather than the bridge hex, so they should have full move. Parson's comments about pursuing Jillian might be failing to anticipate that Jetstone would be willing to flee their capital.

The Jetstone infantry and heavies in Spacerock should probably be sent into the Atrium, because this is a rare opportunity to corner dwagons who can't take off (since that would be crossing a zone boundary). It is unfortunate that they will be slaughtered not only by the dwagons but also by the hobgobwin heavies, but the refugee group will be a lot safer if it is pursued by decrypted infantry rather than dwagons.

The Spacerock archers, who are not attractive targets to mop up with dwagons, should probably march in a direction that it doesn't make sense for GK to send infantry in pursuit. Maybe sell them to a neighbor.

[Whispri]

Might cause... Might cause Benjamin to look to turn. And this could take dozens or hundreds of turns. Benjamin is in the capitol, after all. How often do you think he has access to enemy warlords? As for just ducking into the MK portal, well, that's what the portal guards are for, if need be. Bunny... Someone else speculated that she's Don's way of keeping tabs on Caesar. I'm not wearing that tin foil cap, but her turning has all the same issues as Benjamin turning. She'd need an opportunity to add to what you are assuming would be her motive.

Not when they aren't referred to as warlords when they are popping. We do know that units can be promoted to warlord, after all. But to call something by one label and assume that it also implies another label is not logical thinking.

And a few of your examples are just plain silly for your position. We know for a fact that Stanley started as a piker, and was promoted to warlord. You're just supporting my position there.

I'll be blunt, if you're living in Translyvyto and you like being alive, then as sure as night follows day your best way of staying alive is to ensure the Don King rests in pieces. He's a liability to his side, plain and simple. Even if he was able to murder Caesar and that murder wasn't instantly avenged, he'd only last until his heir popped.

As for the Royal Warlord thing, the unpopped heirs of both Jetstone and Faq have both been referred to as replacements for the current Chief Warlords of the afore mentioned sides. Furthermore, while Wanda's fighting prowess is rather suspicious, at no point has any mention been made of Commanders switching from one class to another.

Yes, Stanlyer was promoted to Warlord. Before he became an heir, not afterwards.

[Althernai]

So let me ask you then: Where do you see things possibly going? Let's assume that Don agrees to drop the gem for Jetstone. Let's also assume that he agrees to drop support for FAQ. Can we agree that these appear to be some of the largest objections against Don's recent policies? Then what? Do Caesar and the remainder of the warlords and casters just go "Hey, that's great, Don! Thanks so much. Now we're all one big, happy side again and you're the king and set the course for the kingdom again." Is this at all what you conceptualize?

If Don dropped the idea of gambling most of the treasury, scaled back support for FAQ and more generally agreed to buying into the idea of royalty and go back to the way Transylvito did things before the Battle of Gobwin Knob, then I would be fairly confident that Caesar & Co. would start following orders again. However, this is not where I see things going -- Don is too far gone and will not accede to the demands of this subordinates.

It will be interesting to see what affect Bunny's love has in the upcoming confrontation between Caesar and Don King.

Yes, it will be very interesting. According to this update, Thinkamancers can perceive and manipulate the strings that underlie all magic in Erfworld. Since orders count as Natural Thinkamancy, she may even be able to do something to stop Don from disbanding Caesar.

[Lamech]

Bear in mind that disbanding Caesar would also cause Don to lose Benjamin. Benny is not going to stick around after Don murders his top warlord and dooms his side just so he can further doom his side by blowing his treasury. He'll either turn, go through the MK portal and stay there, or just provoke Don into disbanding him if he had no other option.

And though Don has no way of knowing this, how do you think Bunny would take Don disbanding Caesar?

Doubt it. Ben claims to be Don's friend. He thinks Don is retarted, and mad, but he is pro-don. He's probably not even a T.V. original unit. I personally think their is a good chance that Ceaser is mad, and their is no Bunny/Ceaser. She doesn't even talk. Alternativly she is spying for Don

Not twoll, clearly. But what do you suggest? We've got two heirs popping right now. Have either been referred to as a warlord, ever? Are you suggesting that you have to be a warlord to be an overlord or king? If you are, I don't think there is any backing for that theory. Is it fuzzy? You bet.

Ceaser was going to go manage a stray city and Tram would head back to diplomacy. So that very strongly implies that the heirs would take over chief warlording duties. Every single king we have conformation either way on was a warlord. We don't know if this is simply convention, or if it is a rule. But it seems likely that being a warlord goes with hier status.

[GaryThunder]

Look at this from Don's perspective. His Moneymancer, who is also supposed to be his good friend, has just responded to a direct order with an open refusal and a declared intention to consult his rebellious Chief Warlord before even possibly agreeing. If Don then goes ahead and disbands that Chief Warlord, who will Benny turn to next? Who will go near Benny, or take his counsel? The other warlords, if they lived, would shrink from him like he had the plague, for fear that Don would turn his disbanding gaze on them. Benny would have to live alone, only emerging to consult an increasingly demented Don as he steers Transylvito into the ground.

Now look at it from Benny's perspective. Would you stick around for that?

[Oberon]

I'll be blunt, if you're living in Translyvyto and you like being alive, then as sure as night follows day your best way of staying alive is to ensure the Don King rests in pieces.

Unless of course your name happens to be Don King. Right? Right? He is living in Transylvito, after all. In which case your best way of staying alive is to disband your disloyal CWL Caesar and take your chances with the future. Oh, and just one minor addition: Don has the power of life and death over every other member of his side, at least right now. Exercising that power might cause his chances for the future to narrow, but not exercising that power might also reduce his short term chances for survival. It's a crapsack world, and no choice is a perfect one, but a king's got to do what a king's got to do.

This is the entire problem with this debate... No one but me seems to be willing to acknowledge the fact that Don is king right now, with all that implies for his options.

Furthermore, while Wanda's fighting prowess is rather suspicious, at no point has any mention been made of Commanders switching from one class to another.

Now here you are just plain wrong. Commander is a term given to both casters and warlords. It's yet another ambiguity. It does not mean that the unit is a warlord, because Wanda is called Commander by Stanley and she is not a warlord. It seems to mean that the unit is highly placed next to the ruler, and being highly placed seems to fall to casters and warlords. But royals also have courtiers, which is another ambiguous label.

[GaryThunder]

Also, re. Caesar, I think you're underestimating his value. In Vinny's summation of Transylvito tactics, he indicated "a Warlord bonus" as if a Warlord bonus was generally considered to be the same value/within the same range (as opposed to "a regular Warlord bonus" or "a low Warlord bonus"). That, with the math indicating Caesar's level as closer to 9-10 (and his utter ownage of Zamussels, he wouldn't be pulling that if he were level 8 or below) and the general descriptions of Warlord bonuses and the leveling system throughout the comic, leads me to believe that the average Warlord bonus hovers anywhere from 2 to 5. If only at least for Transylvito. Higher level units seem to be rare.

Given this, Caesar's beefed up bonus may literally be the only thing holding Transylvito together militarily. The difference between Caesar being in a hex or absent changes battles completely, not to mention his ridiculous direct bonus and considerable combat prowess. Whatever other concerns there are, if Don ends Caesar and puts up even his second best Warlord as CWL, he may not have the raw numbers to even stay alive against Carpool in the future.

[Red Piker]

I have a feeling the loan is going to be made regardless since Trammenis is shaping up to be a major player in Erfworld. It'll also give them a chance to show what happens when a side runs out of schmuckers for upkeep, one of the units I see them losing is....Bunny. After she gets disbanded that will be the final straw for Caesar, he and his posse will pounce onto the Don like a fresh kill and tear him apart. After that all the original royals will be gone. Trammenis will retreat to rebuild his side, Ceasar will focus on his war with Carpool and Parson will be free to go after Jillian who will probably retreat back to FAQ and force parson to think of a way to crack that heavily defended nut.

[Konaa]

Allow me to vary it up a bit and say what I want to happen, rather than what I think will happen.

I WANT Caesar to walk into the throne room and ram that crown up Don's ass. He's a formerly competent Ruler who, ever since he started to believe in Royalty again, has been squandering their treasury on one thing after another. Supporting Jillian was a huge risk- he doesn't even know about her contract with Charlie, for instance. And now he wants to make this loan to Slately just because it'd be Noble or whatever.

Plus, Caesar is awesome.

[Smoker]

Furthermore, while Wanda's fighting prowess is rather suspicious, at no point has any mention been made of Commanders switching from one class to another.

Now here you are just plain wrong. Commander is a term given to both casters and warlords. It's yet another ambiguity. It does not mean that the unit is a warlord, because Wanda is called Commander by Stanley and she is not a warlord. It seems to mean that the unit is highly placed next to the ruler, and being highly placed seems to fall to casters and warlords. But royals also have courtiers, which is another ambiguous label.

I thought it was the name given to a unit that had the ability to lead a stack, regardless of the unit (not) having the leadership special. Casters can lead stacks and are therefore commanders, even though they do not grant a leadership bonus. (I am aware that Casters do give -a- bonus to some unit types, but I believe this is seperate to leadership.)

I think the ambiguous label is "Officer" which seems to be a title given to the favoured Caster. I guess this is just like being head of your department. Your boss knows nothing about the technicalities of your department so he "promotes" some poor sucker into being his spokesman/advisor/department liason/punching bag. (This, by the way, is the worst. job. ever.)

But anyway, I always imagined heirs to be Warlords popped with a special, but I guess thats because the first one we met (Ansom) seemed to be one. He had leadership and all that jazz, but was he born an heir, or promoted to one?

In other news, I'm looking forward to Don standing up and dropping some serious hammer on his troops. If he can convince Jillian to give up her freedom and take up her Queendom, then he's gotta have enough charisma to shut down these monkeys. I know many people here dont agree, but I believe there was a lot of logic in propping up Jillian, and the only problem in TV is the middle management's ignorance and/or arrogance on the issue.

Get 'em Don.

[GaryThunder]

I don't see the middle management's incompetence bankrupting Transylvito of the last dregs of its treasury for almost no actual reason other than to satisfy a pointless and maudlin last request.

Or throwing away all of Transylvito's resources to beef up a chick who's so incompetent at finances that with three cities she needs another patron on the side (not that Don knows this, but still) to keep in business. Or failing to actually, I don't know, talk out the new management direction with said middle management and bring them all around to at least grudging support as opposed to letting rebellion simmer and stew and sending off the best warlord on the side to be killed in an idiotic battle.

Yeah, Don's mismanagement has run TV into the ground, Caesar is the side's only hope.

[Swodaems]

It will be interesting to see what affect Bunny's love has in the upcoming confrontation between Caesar and Don King.

Yes, it will be very interesting. According to this update, Thinkamancers can perceive and manipulate the strings that underlie all magic in Erfworld. Since orders count as Natural Thinkamancy, she may even be able to do something to stop Don from disbanding Caesar.

Wow, I wish I had thought of that possibility myself. The possibility of a thinkamancer affecting their side's orders beyond simply relaying them had not occured to me in that light.
It gives me a couple nice tin-foil hat specs:
Bunny is affecting Don's orders already. This can be accomplished in three ways. She could directly affect the order. The Maggie update also suggests the possibility of communicating a unit's intuitition or other feeling to another unit. If Don has mixed feelings about his orders, Bunny can send that uncertainty across the entire side. There is also the chance that she was positively affectly Don's orders before the current crisis and has now stopped.
Bunny also could be a driving force behind the current attitude of Ceaser towards Don. Here Ceaser starts suspecting Don of trying to get him killed directly after getting off a call with Bunny. If she has doubts about Don, she could be leaking those doubts into all of her conversations. The Maggie update says that thinkamancers have hidden the full range of their abilites from warlords, so neither Ceaser nor Don is aware of Bunny as a potential threat in this manner, so they can't guard against it.
Finally, if we look at Bunny this way, we have to look at Maggie this way too. Has she been affecting the orders flying around GK? The dwagon riders accepted a suicide order very readily. The only unit in the skies who was unsure of Lord Hamster's plan being the best chance they had was Ossomer, and he potentially recieved no thinkamancied orders.

[Smoker]

I don't see the middle management's incompetence bankrupting Transylvito of the last dregs of its treasury for almost no actual reason other than to satisfy a pointless and maudlin last request.

Or throwing away all of Transylvito's resources to beef up a chick who's so incompetent at finances that with three cities she needs another patron on the side (not that Don knows this, but still) to keep in business.

Or in other words, support the sides that are the greatest threat to GK, without actually putting yourself in GKs sights.

I think its a matter of perspective. It's easy to cry foul when Jillian quit the field early (and yeah, I agree that was pretty naughty of her), but remember that if not for some pretty exceptional circumstances then things would be very very different right now.

If Jillian didn't have spanky feelings for Wanda, she would have finished the job.
If Jillian had foreseen Parson's exploit, she would not have left.
If Jillian had loved Wanda more than Ansom, she'd have captured her, and left.
If Wanda had captured Tramennis (or anyone else) instead of Ossomer, then Ossomer would still be CWL and would have blasted GK out of the sky, exploit or no.
If it turned out that AcidPoo couldn't melt the top of the Atrium, then no exploit.
If Wanda failed her falling roll and croaked on impact, GK loses.
If Antium hadn't taken a shaft from behind by his own men, then Wanda would be KIA.

So yeah it was a failure, but only barely. Theres seven points above which all unluckily fell in GKs favour. If just one of those points had fallen in favour of RCCII, then Don would be one of the most popular guys around. It would've been his little protege that tipped the scales, and the best part is that GK wouldn't even know. As it happens Faq didnt make as big an impact on the battle as he hoped, but he still has her on side for the next one.

So anyway, now there's this thing going on in Jetstone. It looks like Jetstone "aint gonna last nine turns", and they've been taking all the knocks from GK since Unaroyal disbanded. If and when Jetstone go down, who's next to take the hits? Faq? Jittari? TV? As far as we can piece together, they are the three closest sides. Faq wouldn't even be there if not for Don, and that would leave them with a 50/50 chance of taking a massive GK load, in the face.

So Slately's begging Don to let him place his boy on the throne. According to Slately, Tramennis is the best chance they have for Jetstones future. Don doesn't like it, but he cant avoid the one simple fact: The longer Jetstone survive, the longer TV survives, at least until GK is taken down. Hopefully his little warrior queen will take care of that next time, but until he sorts that out, or comes up with another plan, he needs time. Jetstone -or more specifically, Tramennis- can give him that time, if only he can give them the Shmuckers.

All this comes in a nice little package of "Royal Sides sticking together for Royalty's sake." But all the above is pretty much the practical application.

Or failing to actually, I don't know, talk out the new management direction with said middle management and bring them all around to at least grudging support as opposed to letting rebellion simmer and stew and sending off the best warlord on the side to be killed in an idiotic battle.

On this point, I'm sympathetic. Don should be in better communication with his underlings.

Yeah, Don's mismanagement has run TV into the ground, Caesar is the side's only hope.

TV are not in an easy position, but I wouldn't call them "run into the ground". They have one very very powerful (albeit extremely inaccurate) weapon on their side, named Faq. They might also have a thick meaty shield named Jetstone if things go well... For someone so geographically close to GK, that aint the worst situation you could have (see: Unaroyal).

[normalphil]

Or in other words, support the sides that are the greatest threat to GK, without actually putting yourself in GKs sights.

I think its a matter of perspective. It's easy to cry foul when Jillian quit the field early (and yeah, I agree that was pretty naughty of her), but remember that if not for some pretty exceptional circumstances then things would be very very different right now.

One thing of it here is that to Caesar it wouldn't be barely a failure, it was inevitably a failure. It hinges on Jillian; Caesar believes she's nuts, not endearingly cranky and eccentric like Don does, but a thoroughly unreliable lunatic, and that since the turn he met her. To him it isn't a stroke of bad luck, its the obvious returns of shaky policy.

The other thing of it is that Transylvito has been making very real sacrifices for nebulous ends. Since they started propping up Faq, they've lost three cities and seven of twenty-six warlords. Better than a quarter of their forces. They're bleeding; Carpool isn't playing around anymore, and through it all Don has them focused on Gobwin Knob like an auger. They're in the Britain 1941 position; sacrificing the gains of hundreds of turns and status as a power to be reckoned with to prop up everyone else. And nobody in Transylvito but the Don thinks The Great Western Conflict is worth that.

[Smoker]

One thing of it here is that to Caesar it wouldn't be barely a failure, it was inevitably a failure. It hinges on Jillian; Caesar believes she's nuts, not endearingly cranky and eccentric like Don does, but a thoroughly unreliable lunatic, and that since the turn he met her. To him it isn't a stroke of bad luck, its the obvious returns of shaky policy.

Oh totally agree. It will take a lot to bring Caesar around to the Don's way of thinking... but there's enough there to make a decent argument.

I mean, Jillian has mad-skills with the sword, extremely cool unit types and a burning desire to croak Stanley. Moreover, she doesn't have the brains to work out that she's being used as a sheild to deflect GK's attention from TV, even though they are the ones setting her up to wipe them out. (Or if she does she doesn't care)

So I'm hoping to see some real intelligence from Don soon, instead of the sad, lumbering fat man clinging to a way of life which is slipping through his fingers - even if it is for just a last stand.

[Fannin]

I think that the problem as Caesar sees it is GK is not the only or an immediate threat, they are under constant attack from their neighbors. Based on http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE047_NoIllustration.png we can see that he does not believe they can hold their remaining cities with their remaining forces which cannot be replenished due to Don routing their funds to Faq (and subsequently starting production of an heir). From http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2009-12-05.png We know that since Don's re-awakening to the royalist cause they've lost 7 warlords of their original 26 as well as 3 cities, we don't have an exact count of how many cities they had but they've lost 26% of their warlords.

Look at it from the perspective of Caesar and Benny
1. Transylvito is already in a critical condition, it desperately needs troops to be able to fend off the hostile Carpudlians (and possibly others) who are taking their cities.
2. Don has spent a large proportion of the treasury propping up Faq to the point that their own side is in trouble
3. When finances are already tight and the need for troops is so pressing Don has decided to pop a new heir which will take 60 turns as they don't have a turnmancer
4. Don wants to send Jetstone virtually the entire remaining treasury
5. If Transylvito cannot pay upkeep then units auto-disband making the situation worse

Don is basically ignoring the needs of his side and allowing it to be destroyed now so it really doesn't matter if they are or are not directly confronting GK because he has left them unable to defend themselves from more mundane threats. Disbanding just the 7 warlords in the room and would leave them with 12 warlords who would not possess Caesar's levels or ability and surrounded by hostile forces when they are already on a downward spiral with 19 warlords including Caesar's large bonus. To paraphrase Benny, Don ignoring the domestic for matters majestic has put them in this situation and as a ruler he is currently a major liability.

[Smoker]

He's in big trouble either way. If Don never convinced Jillian to reclaim her cities, and had just set his attention on fending off Carpool, he would find Jetstone croaked this turn (technically, last turn) and him, as a member of the RCC and RCCII, next in line for assimilation into the ranks of the decrypted. That is definitely a lose.

Don knows if he goes head to head with GK, he'll get wiped out. If Unaroyal and Jetstone couldn't do it, how could he? Especially as GK forces are getting stronger as they go along. Going head to head is not a good idea: He's not just up against a fleeing stack of dwagons in a bottleneck this time. He'd be up against archons, decrypt-boosted infantry and dwagons, not to mention all the other units types GK are picking up along the way. Bat-stacks or no bat-stacks, he needs a buffer between GK and himself.

So yeah, he's lost 3 cities and 7 warlords since setting up Faq, but how much have they popped? They have three cities for starters. Don might not see that money personally, but in theory its all going into the anti-GK war machine anyway. I dont know how many warlords Faq has, but the airfleet of Faq is just beautiful to behold. So not only are their losses represented in Faq's gains, but this way they dont suffer retaliation from GK which would almost certainly end in TV being wiped off the map.

So yeah, they are stretched to the limits fending off Carpool, but at least that all they have to worry about, so long as they keep propping up GK's enemies until one of them actually wins.

Of course, this all falls apart when you point out what a nut-job Jillian is, but its all he had to work with... It was a solid plan.