Book 2 – Page 56

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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby Squishalot » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:29 pm

dirocyn wrote:Same deal with Jetstone--if he makes this loan, Jetstone is still there next turn.

No. He could force Slately to follow Tram's original plan and leave the city, thus, preserving Jetstone until next turn. All Don is doing is indulging Slately's personal wishes for Tram to be the King of Jetstone.

That may be a good investment, if it means that Jetstone survives for longer than it would otherwise. But next turn? No difference.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby dirocyn » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:12 am

Okay, that's fair. Without the loan, Slately can't indulge his desire for a heroic end. If Tram's plan works, Jetstone will still be around next turn either way.

On the other hand, if Slately waits around for his answer, the tower's gonna come down and neither plan will work.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby Smoker » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:21 am

dirocyn wrote:Okay, that's fair. Without the loan, Slately can't indulge his desire for a heroic end. If Tram's plan works, Jetstone will still be around next turn either way.

On the other hand, if Slately waits around for his answer, the tower's gonna come down and neither plan will work.
I think the thing here is that Slately is suggesting that under Tram's rule, Jetstone wouldn't just prolong their death, they might actually have a chance for a future. Having Jetstone actually continue is very valuable to Don. I agree though that time is critical here. Luckily talking is a free action :)

oslecamo2_temp wrote:
Smoker wrote:The fact that Jillian almost ended GK's advantage but didnt', doesnt stop the fact that putting someone between you and the bad guy is a great idea.

The problem is that Jillian is all he had to work with, but what were his options?
Perhaps simply make his own troops fight? Caesar mentions how taking FAQ cities would mean several extra warlords, not to mention their production capacity.
Yeah that is an option, but it would mean that GK would come hunting for TV once Jetstone is gone. That is the key here. If you dont think that situation is worth avoiding, then yeah you wouldn't see any logic in setting up Faq.

oslecamo2_temp wrote:The problem it's that TV is bankrupting themselves to finance Jillian. Congratulations, now you don't need to worry about GK destroying you, because soon you'll be unable to pay for your forces upkeep.
If they were actually at that point, then yeah, it'd be time for a change of plan. As far as we know, though, TV are not razing cities or disbanding troops to stay in business. They are low on funds, but not in so dire a position as Jetstone (for example). Carpool are a very real threat, but they are not wiping the floor with TV just yet, so the situation is grim, but still manageable.

oslecamo2_temp wrote:
Smoker wrote:A suggestion would have been a great idea.
Jillian has been known to be able to snap out of those. Heck, this time she even took measures to warn her chief warlord to watch for it.
That was my first reaction too, but in all fairness, Don doesn't know anything about Jillian's history in that regard. He does know that she is a loose cannon, so Lamach's idea is actually pretty good, from Don's POV.

Lamech wrote:True, I suppose its not quite time to accpet defeat. Still I don't think Don will go for it.
Neither do I.. :(
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:36 am

Squishalot wrote:
dirocyn wrote:Same deal with Jetstone--if he makes this loan, Jetstone is still there next turn.

No. He could force Slately to follow Tram's original plan and leave the city, thus, preserving Jetstone until next turn. All Don is doing is indulging Slately's personal wishes for Tram to be the King of Jetstone.

That may be a good investment, if it means that Jetstone survives for longer than it would otherwise. But next turn? No difference.

Indeed, there's no need for Jetstone to get an heir right now at all. Slatley suicide charging would just satisfy his own whims. This is the time for the king to run away to fight another day. It will literally be throwing money away.

Oberon wrote:You're not altogether wrong, but I'll add that your list of bullet points would quite probably have still been TVs situation had Don decided to fund his own troop creation and attacked GK directly. Except that in this case there would be no *ptui* Kingworld, as Charlie wasn't being hired by royals.

Jillian is a royal and proud of it. That didn't stop Charlie from aproaching her. And Don himself doesn't care (or at least didn't) much about royalty. Plus this is Charlie we're talking about. He could always find a way to pull strings here and there to make sure Kingworld would be used in Jetstone.

Oberon wrote:Your last bullet point becomes moot, even though it was moot from a TV point of view in any case. Without KW, no freezing Wanda in place where she could be attacked, it'd have to have been a TV assault of warlords and bats (or whatever else TV could bring to bear) against Wanda.

Again, I fail to see how Jillian is necessary in any way for Kingworld. Lots of other people could've been manipulated into deploying a turnmancer linked with Charlie in Jetstone for the same result.

Oberon wrote: If TV and Jetstone are allied (and I believe they are both members of the RCCII) they'd be able to coordinate the attack. They might even have megalos, as that unit type might come with the FAQ capitol and other 2 cities.

Would they win? Who can guess? But would GK be gunning for TV after that fight? You bet'cha.

Thing is, once FAQ goes down, TV will be right next on the list of targets for GK to take down. Because decrypted don't lie, so as soon as FAQ starts taking casualities, GK will know TV has been financing them heavily.

Oberon wrote:Tram believed that GK could still beat the RCCII even after losing Wanda and the GK expeditionary force.

A blatant lie on his part to get an excuse to try to talk to Hamster. Even his father didn't buy it.

Oberon wrote: So while this is all highly speculative, it appears as though Don has accomplished one thing very well: He has kept TV off of the GK radar. If it comes down to it, he can ally with GK instead of having an angered GK interested in ending him.


I dunno about you, but once GK starts decrypting FAQ forces and discovers they've been the ones that allowed FAQ to get her fleet, I don't believe they'll be very open to diplomatic talks. Actually, with TV struggling to pay upkeeps, and their top warlords disbanded to prevent a riot, they've made themselves quite a tasty target to be finished off.

So no, Don has actually left a tail of bread crumps pointing at TV, while burning up his treasury, sacrificing cities and troops, and Carpool knocking at their back door. It's no wonder all his top officers are asking themselves WTF is he expecting to acomplish with all of this.

Smoker:
Like I and another poster already said, it's irrelevant if TV tries to work trough FAQ, GK will still know TV was trying to screw them over once Wanda start decrypting FAQ warlords and they spill all the beans about their alliance. GK will be coming after their necks once FAQ is finished, and TV will be in no position to rally troops for a proper defense.

Also, like Benjamin pointed out in the other update, they still have enough money to go by for the next turns... But if they make the loan, they go bankrupt in two turns. A loan just to satisfy a whim of Slatley.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby drachefly » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:08 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Because decrypted don't lie, so as soon as FAQ starts taking casualities, GK will know TV has been financing them heavily.


Vinnie doesn't know about Charlie's help financing, why would random casualties know about TV?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby Smoker » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:46 am

Indeed, GK know that TV are an enemy, they know they were part of the original RCC, they know that TV almost capped Stanley at the pass... The point is that TV are not an open threat right now.

This means that if GK want to protect themselves, they can either go after Faq and destroy the side that is openly attacking them, or they can go after TV and cut off Faq's funding then go after Faq. Since cutting off the funding after Faq has already built their army wouldn't really help, it only makes sense that GK would pursue Faq first.

It buys TV time, (during which they hope that GK will fall,) before GK turn their attention on TV, at which point they need to consider accepting terms.

GK finding out that TV has been backing its established allies shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. It might make an alliance/surrender a bit harder to attain, but that's not their priority. Their two main priorities are:
1)Keeping people fighting GK
2)Keeping GK fighting people (who are not TV)

TV are not pretending they are neutral, they are just staying far enough back that there are better targets for GK to attack first.

of course, I say this like it is fact, but really its just a possible reasoning behind Don's actions. One might say Don was just outright blinded by the whole Royalty thing, but I prefer to allow him more depth. Sure he's reconsidered his position on royalty, but that shouldnt make him an idiot. There is logic here, and I'm hoping that Don has planned it, rather than stumbled on it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby Swodaems » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:51 am

GK has already decrypted a unit that knows about the TV Faq connection Tv is not going to be able to come out of this squeeky clean if Faq goes down.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby kagato23 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:32 am

Swodaems wrote:GK has already decrypted a unit that knows about the TV Faq connection Tv is not going to be able to come out of this squeeky clean if Faq goes down.


It may be a bit of a stretch though. Everybody in the RCC is aligned, more or less. So of course two members within may have been beforehand. No big deal, as Erf politics go. Now, I wouldn't put it past parson to put all the pieces together if he had all the information, but he likely doesn't: Stanley isn't going to really be telling anybody about his fight except in the form of bragging about how well he did in said fight. Considering the guy doesn't even realize Jillian is the heir from FAQ from before, which a simple conversation with Wanda after the fight could have easily confirmed, I doubt he'd feel the need to bring up the whole "Oh, it was these units there. Lotsa bats." to Parson, who isn't exactly in rapt attention of everything Stanely says to begin with.

Ossamer, by contrast, has little motivation to bring it up from his perspective. He certainly knows FAQ is allied with TV, but not necessarily that that's important. From what he's seen so far, FAQ's Queen has a personal interest with his Mistress so he's not necessarily going to see TV having a large hand in her being there, and he doesn't necessarily know about the funding. So he has little reason to volunteer the info. And that assumes he's even alive/unturned come the next day's turns.

So without actually being given the pieces, I doubt Parson can put together the puzzle. By contrast, I can definitely see him figuring out Charlie was involved (you know he's going to try to dissect Kingsworld when this is all over, no way he'll ignore that, and Antium alone is one example of a trooper who indeed knows Charlie was directly involved with FAQ) but probably not TV. At least not from all of this.

On the other hand, I could see Caesar dropping a lot of this info casually and unthinkingly if he ever ends up talking to GK. Which, considering he's got at least decent odds of being the next TV ruler and having a neighbor with GK he rather despises, is not unfathomable.

Looking at it from a more meta perspective, one thing we have largely not explored now is alliances. I could actually see a TV (under Casear) GK alliance happen, because Casear rose and probably prefers TV's older meritocracy so isn't so much concerned with the war, and by contrast hates the guys GK is about to consider jumping. Could be a good way to get a Klog about those.

I'm obviously speculating pretty far here, but I don't think it's completely unreasonable. Heck, as it turns out, of all the actively engaged RCC sides encountered by GK, TV has on the surface done the least against them! :P
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby JimSox5 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:20 pm

First a disclaimer. This is a random thought and I have no evidence to back this up.

Have we seen any TV unit decrypted? They've got a vampire appearance, what if that somehow gives them an immunity to being decrypted? That could be a huge turning point that might change the entire focus of the Coalition to pour their treasuries into TV to they can beef up and have a shot at GK.

Epileptic trees and all that. . .
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby effataigus » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:39 pm

JimSox5 wrote:First a disclaimer. This is a random thought and I have no evidence to back this up.

Have we seen any TV unit decrypted? They've got a vampire appearance, what if that somehow gives them an immunity to being decrypted?


Or perhaps allows them to be decrypted before they croak :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby Althernai » Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:18 pm

Smoker wrote:This means that if GK want to protect themselves, they can either go after Faq and destroy the side that is openly attacking them, or they can go after TV and cut off Faq's funding then go after Faq. Since cutting off the funding after Faq has already built their army wouldn't really help, it only makes sense that GK would pursue Faq first.

It buys TV time, (during which they hope that GK will fall,) before GK turn their attention on TV, at which point they need to consider accepting terms.

This does not make any sense. Why would Gobwin Knob fall? Yes, they will probably attack FAQ before Transylvito, but all that does for Don King is delay the inevitable -- FAQ has no chance of defeating Gobwin Knob unaided. FAQ as a shield against Gobwin Knob only makes sense if Don King has some kind of plan that requires more time (in which case it would have been a good idea to share it with his casters and closest warlords).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby dirocyn » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:03 pm

I want to just add to the discussion--Faq's plan to hit GK's poorly defended cities and raze them, is possibly the best strategy the royal coalition could have. Faq can smack a few cities and earn it's upkeep--while actually hurting GK. Unlike what happens when they attack Wanda directly--that just earns GK more units. And by razing those cities--when GK goes on the offensive, it will need longer supply lines, and it will need to bring it's ground troops up in a long, multi-hex column. Which will leave some troops particularly vulnerable to air strikes.

Of course, Faq's air force is still within range of Spacerock. I'll believe she's truly out of this battle when the turn ends.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby yuffiek » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:08 pm

I have a question, is the text blurb in panel 4 supposed to be Parson talking to Maggie (based on the font used), or Maggie informing Parson of the nature of the forces attacking Progrock? (which makes the next 2 panels make much more sense)

Just a nitpick.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby drachefly » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:11 pm

It's Parson talking, and the next two panels make perfect sense that way.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:36 pm

Smoker wrote:This means that if GK want to protect themselves, they can either go after Faq and destroy the side that is openly attacking them, or they can go after TV and cut off Faq's funding then go after Faq. Since cutting off the funding after Faq has already built their army wouldn't really help, it only makes sense that GK would pursue Faq first.

Actually, the right tactical decision would be to take down banrupt and divided TV first. Like Charlie pointed out, you want to strike where your enemy is weakest first. If you can choose before destroying an enemy force or an enemy supply resource, the second is a much better target. Because then Jillian will be left in the cold whitout any choice to sustain her army but keep raiding, in wich case GK will be waiting for them.

Smoker wrote:It buys TV time, (during which they hope that GK will fall,) before GK turn their attention on TV, at which point they need to consider accepting terms.

If all they could do is hope that GK falled by itself, then they should've consider accepting terms from the begginning, instead of giving even more reasons for GK to want to wipe them out.

Smoker wrote:GK finding out that TV has been backing its established allies shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. It might make an alliance/surrender a bit harder to attain, but that's not their priority. Their two main priorities are:
1)Keeping people fighting GK
2)Keeping GK fighting people (who are not TV)

TV are not pretending they are neutral, they are just staying far enough back that there are better targets for GK to attack first.

But there were already other targets. GK was kinda busy stomping on the big arrogant royal sides. And once GK had crushed all major resistance, Charlie would be next on the list of things to do. TV could've just stood watching them bash each other and then allying with whoever won.

Smoker wrote:of course, I say this like it is fact, but really its just a possible reasoning behind Don's actions. One might say Don was just outright blinded by the whole Royalty thing, but I prefer to allow him more depth. Sure he's reconsidered his position on royalty, but that shouldnt make him an idiot. There is logic here, and I'm hoping that Don has planned it, rather than stumbled on it.


You remember the little party he threw up when he tought Jetstone would manage to hold GK at a chokepoint? And then having to order most of his subordinates out of the room when GK revealed they had a dwagon fleet that could just go around said chokepoint?

Don was outright blinded and is now just stumbling and improvising. There was never another plan besides "Royalty will surely prevail!". If it wasn't for Charlie backing Jillian's ass all this time, she would've crashed and burned all the investment TV made on her long ago.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby mortissimus » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:40 pm

Smoker wrote:It buys TV time, (during which they hope that GK will fall,) before GK turn their attention on TV, at which point they need to consider accepting terms.

GK finding out that TV has been backing its established allies shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. It might make an alliance/surrender a bit harder to attain, but that's not their priority. Their two main priorities are:
1)Keeping people fighting GK
2)Keeping GK fighting people (who are not TV)

TV are not pretending they are neutral, they are just staying far enough back that there are better targets for GK to attack first.

of course, I say this like it is fact, but really its just a possible reasoning behind Don's actions. One might say Don was just outright blinded by the whole Royalty thing, but I prefer to allow him more depth. Sure he's reconsidered his position on royalty, but that shouldnt make him an idiot. There is logic here, and I'm hoping that Don has planned it, rather than stumbled on it.


And considering that this is a multiplayer world with lots of sides, when faced with an over-powered enemy that you can not defeat, buying time is the right strategy. Someone else might kill them off, or they might run out of resources or otherwise weaken. Then you attack. Sta-sta-sta-staying alive, staying alive.

I like this theory.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby mortissimus » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:43 pm

dirocyn wrote:I want to just add to the discussion--Faq's plan to hit GK's poorly defended cities and raze them, is possibly the best strategy the royal coalition could have. Faq can smack a few cities and earn it's upkeep--while actually hurting GK. Unlike what happens when they attack Wanda directly--that just earns GK more units. And by razing those cities--when GK goes on the offensive, it will need longer supply lines, and it will need to bring it's ground troops up in a long, multi-hex column. Which will leave some troops particularly vulnerable to air strikes.

Of course, Faq's air force is still within range of Spacerock. I'll believe she's truly out of this battle when the turn ends.


Yes, that is how you fight a side with the ultimate stack of DOOM. Hit them elsewhere. Of course, the side with the stack of DOOM should then use it to conquer your home territory and then pick of your expedition forces.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby Oberon » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:07 pm

cheeseaholic wrote:If avoiding having GK know about TV's opposition of GK was Don's goal, then he was a fool. GK has decryption, and they will easily find out about TV's role in the war. Don has known about this since at least Bea.

They may or may not come after them for it, but they'll know that they are an enemy.
Rather circular... If TV uses proxies to fight for them, who is there to tell the tale? Even if we assume that every FAQ unit is considered to have the "need to know" that TV has been funding their build up, that doesn't prove that TV put FAQ up to *ptui* kingworld, or being at Jetstone (they left, btw), or razing Progrock.
oslecamo2_temp wrote:Jillian is a royal and proud of it. That didn't stop Charlie from aproaching her.
Did you really say that? Have you been reading the same comic as I? Jillian spent the entirety of Book 1 denying her royal heritage. She is far from being proud to be a royal, as even a casual reading of the comic reveals. She had to be coerced, coerced into accepting three cities that TV could have easily assimilated into their own kingdom, and her own monarchy. Proud of it? Hardly. Charlie approached her probably due to this exact same observation, that Jillian is less of a stickler for royal prerogative and protocol. Or because he had no one else to approach...
oslecamo2_temp wrote:Again, I fail to see how Jillian is necessary in any way for Kingworld. Lots of other people could've been manipulated into deploying a turnmancer linked with Charlie in Jetstone for the same result.
I'd like to see your short list of those "lots of people" who Charlie could have pulled the same *ptui* kingworld stunt with. Slately? He was furious over the mere suspicion that Jillian was dealing with Charlie, and that was over getting the army which was coming to destroy his kingdom at the first opportunity (Haggar) to instead attack the army that was coming to destroy his kingdom at the first opportunity (GK). All other hypothesis should be rather amusing.
oslecamo2_temp wrote:Thing is, once FAQ goes down, TV will be right next on the list of targets for GK to take down.
You still haven't been reading the same comic. GK wants allies. They need allies. They are at some kind of limited returns point where they simply cannot build their side much larger. (I won't pretend to understand this when the decrypted have zero upkeep, but this is what Parson said) They need allies or their momentum stalls. If GK was willing to ally with Jetstone (and they were), the architects of not one but two royal coalitions with the stated goal of the death of Stanley and the destruction of the GK side, then surely they can overlook some funds going from one member of the RCCII to another member of the RCCII, no matter what the reason. And that's assuming that reason ever comes to light, which I doubt it would or could.
oslecamo2_temp wrote:
Oberon wrote:Tram believed that GK could still beat the RCCII even after losing Wanda and the GK expeditionary force.
A blatant lie on his part to get an excuse to try to talk to Hamster. Even his father didn't buy it.
You're welcome to your own opinion, I took his statement as an accurate analysis. GK without Wanda still has Stanley and the 'hammer, the archon/Stanley dwagon generating machine, a raft of potent casters, and Parson. Tram didn't need an excuse to speak to Parson, he fully intended to speak to both Parson and Charlie, the same hated Charlie his father had forbidden any member of the RCCII to deal with. Tram had his own plans, sure, but he didn't need to lie to get his way. If you doubt, just look at the many times he has stepped all over his father, claiming the CWL prerogative to wage war his own way.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby Lamech » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:24 pm

Oberon wrote:You still haven't been reading the same comic. GK wants allies. They need allies. They are at some kind of limited returns point where they simply cannot build their side much larger. (I won't pretend to understand this when the decrypted have zero upkeep, but this is what Parson said) They need allies or their momentum stalls. If GK was willing to ally with Jetstone (and they were), the architects of not one but two royal coalitions with the stated goal of the death of Stanley and the destruction of the GK side, then surely they can overlook some funds going from one member of the RCCII to another member of the RCCII, no matter what the reason. And that's assuming that reason ever comes to light, which I doubt it would or could.
Its highly possible that Parson was straight up lying or implying something deceptive. Charlie doesn't know that decrypted have no upkeep cost. Its possible on-lookers would conclude that GK had a "diminishing shmucker point" as the result of getting ruined cities and large numbers of units. Or that GK would be running up against the diminishing shmucker point when really there a few thousand units short of having that problem.

We also don't know how harsh it is. It may max out at a certain point. Say... when you have new cities get a 50% reduced income. Or something similar.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 56

Postby mp122984 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:47 pm

Lamech wrote:
Oberon wrote:You still haven't been reading the same comic. GK wants allies. They need allies. They are at some kind of limited returns point where they simply cannot build their side much larger. (I won't pretend to understand this when the decrypted have zero upkeep, but this is what Parson said) They need allies or their momentum stalls. If GK was willing to ally with Jetstone (and they were), the architects of not one but two royal coalitions with the stated goal of the death of Stanley and the destruction of the GK side, then surely they can overlook some funds going from one member of the RCCII to another member of the RCCII, no matter what the reason. And that's assuming that reason ever comes to light, which I doubt it would or could.
Its highly possible that Parson was straight up lying or implying something deceptive. Charlie doesn't know that decrypted have no upkeep cost. Its possible on-lookers would conclude that GK had a "diminishing shmucker point" as the result of getting ruined cities and large numbers of units. Or that GK would be running up against the diminishing shmucker point when really there a few thousand units short of having that problem.

We also don't know how harsh it is. It may max out at a certain point. Say... when you have new cities get a 50% reduced income. Or something similar.


Seeing this comic and connecting it with the text upkeep, I think I get what Parson's saying. GK's cities are still popping living units, and those units still cost normal upkeep. In theory, one could reduce this upkeep to zero by croaking/decrypting them as soon as they pop, but I haven't seen anyone suggest that as a solution. Actually, if we assume that the current state of Erfworld demands a "diminishing Schmuckers point", then what GK's been doing would actually accelerate them reaching it. Other sides kill the non-caster units, GK decrypts them. The upkeep cost isn't in the initial capture but in maintaining the cities you took, so that increases more quickly for GK, which has been using its Decrypted army to take cities more quickly.
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