Book 2 – Text Updates 044

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 044

Postby The Xenologist » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:44 pm

No one in particular wrote:... hey, wait a minute, what's the timing on that? Did Gobwin Knob and Faq fall at the same time? GK fell when Stanley was out on a "special mission" with the casters... was that attacking Faq?


Hahaha wow, i have to say i never would have thought of this, but it would add another layer of weirdness onto the story =P I'm defiantly a fan of this view.

boegiboe wrote: I like the idea posted earlier that the Arkenstone might be best wielded by a hippiemancer. It might make its Attuned immune to all attacks. It might have an overwhelming pacification power. That would make it a match for any of the other three.


Eh i dont know how i feel about this idea, the Arkentools were originally used by the Titans of Erf to create the world. The world they created was one based on perpetual warfare between opposing sides. To that end, the Arkentools revealed thus far all have some kind of battle related function [Arkenpliers make decrypted armies, Arkenhammer tames Dwagons, and Arkendish allows for unmatched communications and surveillance.] To have the last Arkentool be something that goes so directly against the world the titans have created would be definitely odd. I suppose hippiemancy does provide a basis for this idea, but what would the result of such an Arkentool be if it was used? Everyone on either side of a battle just decides they dont feel like fighting anymore? that would be very counterintuitive to an erfworlder. Janis might like it, but from a storytelling perspective it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 044

Postby Dinkum » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:01 pm

effataigus wrote:So... if the pliers extended Wanda's croakamancy (Motion and Matter) to the Life axis... Then perhaps... an attuned tool is a tool that allows someone to cast along their magic while utilizing the axes they don't have access to? I.e. the dish extends Charlie's thinkamancy (Life and Motion) to the matter axis, and the hammer is extending Stanely's magic (none to speak of) to all three axes (which fits with carnymancy)?


This actually makes a lot of sense to me, in retrospect. As others have pointed out; Stanley has turned walnuts into birds and back, like Lance Burton handling doves; Can fly at will, like Chris Angel; Can tame wild animals, reminiscent to Siegfried and Roy; and made impressive visual effects like a Van de Graff lightning show, which would be harmless outside of Erfworld. All of these abilities might be related to Earth-magic which becomes devastatingly real carnymancy on Erf. Also he just ate a sandwich bigger than his head, like some carny who eats bicycles and nails.

Going by Parson's Magic Grid, Thinkamancy, Croakamancy, and Carnymancy are all considered 'Fate' magic, which might help pigeon-hole Stanley's abilities in this particular story. It being Stanley, his idea that the hammer would have date-a-mancy abilities is almost assuredly incorrect. However, there seem to be few practical uses for the hammer, if it is indeed derived from simple magic tricks.

Maybe he can 'send someone to the cornfield' with it, instead of outright croaking them.

Actually, that is kinda creepy and appropriate, given how childish Stanley is..
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 044

Postby kagato23 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:30 pm

Dinkum wrote:Maybe he can 'send someone to the cornfield' with it, instead of outright croaking them.

Actually, that is kinda creepy and appropriate, given how childish Stanley is..

Dinkum, not the cornfield. Hammerspace. :P
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 044

Postby Angband » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:40 pm

The Xenologist wrote:
No one in particular wrote:... hey, wait a minute, what's the timing on that? Did Gobwin Knob and Faq fall at the same time? GK fell when Stanley was out on a "special mission" with the casters... was that attacking Faq?


Hahaha wow, i have to say i never would have thought of this, but it would add another layer of weirdness onto the story =P I'm defiantly a fan of this view.


This has been hashed out before -- while it's theoretically possible that it was the same trip, all signs point to Stanley's sacking of FAQ was one of the reasons that King Saline IV promoted him to heir designate, so it couldn't have happened at the same time.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 044

Postby The Xenologist » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:48 pm

Angband wrote:This has been hashed out before -- while it's theoretically possible that it was the same trip, all signs point to Stanley's sacking of FAQ was one of the reasons that King Saline IV promoted him to heir designate, so it couldn't have happened at the same time.


Thanks for pointing that out :D I guess it would make sense that Saline IV would have been very impressed with the destruction of FAQ. He did get some killer casters out of it.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 044

Postby John Campbell » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:50 pm

I just noticed that, while Stanley's making an effort to remember units' names - even the random kitchen twoll he at least remembers starts with a Z - Sizemore is still just "the Dirtamancer".
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 044

Postby Beeskee » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:18 pm

John Campbell wrote:I just noticed that, while Stanley's making an effort to remember units' names - even the random kitchen twoll he at least remembers starts with a Z - Sizemore is still just "the Dirtamancer".


He used to be "the turd guy" so I think that's an upgrade. :D
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 044

Postby Oberon » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:29 pm

I forgot to mention yesterday that I very much liked your proposition for maximizing dwagon taming.
Lamech wrote:Mount an archon and cycle it through a dwagon relay. Every dwagon lets her check 50 hexes, so four dwagons find one. Have the guy with the hammer do the same thing, he'll probably be able to get to the dwagons a lot quicker of course. (Maybe one dwagon per dwagon here, someone better at probablity want to comment?) If your willing to risk dwagons, and have enough mountain hexes, you stand to gain ONE dwagon, for every fiveish(?) dwagons you risk. A 20% turn interest rates on dwagons? You could get a LOT of dwagons, bet you might be able to feed them with dwagons.

If I can work up the initiative I might look up the comic where Parson works out the odds of finding dwagons and helps Stanley feel more useful again, and work the odds for the scenario you've outlined.
mortissimus wrote:There has been speculation about that? Stanley flew with the hammer in the early scenes after summoning Parson.
Yeah, it is amusing, isn't it, how the long stretches of time tend to erode memories and implant false conclusions? I suspect that if read in book format this would not occur, but we're talking about a very significant passage of time here. Book 1 page 1 has a creative commons "coyright" (what the hell is this called?) of 2006, after all.
peteratjet wrote:We've seen Stanley do this right from the start of course, when he shaved Wanda's [...]
This seemed to be going somewhere interesting, but then it got boring. :o
Smoker wrote:Here's hoping he doesn't do something untimely and stupid that will ruin Parson's plans just as they are about to secure victory, thus allowing the enemy to narrowly escape and return stronger than ever before...

Naaaah..
Yeah, what are the odds of that happening twice? ;)
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Oberon wrote:We have seen this. There is no indication that this [the O'rly turning into a walnut] was an illusion, and no indication that Jack was aware of the reveal of this new 'power' that Stanley made to Wanda.
Jack was linked to the all seeing table. Alsohttp://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F114.jpg
See the bats? Those bats with out a warlord around? The ones that are really Stanley, dwagon and Jack? Note how they are in the panel when the orly gets transformed?
I'm still not seeing it. Vinnie put his hand right through the illusion dwagon. Jillian landed on the dwagon with Stanley and Jack on it in panel 4, and the O'rly to walnut transformation occurred in panel 3. This seems to indicate that this was actually Stanley and Jack and dwagon, and that the transformation did indeed take place for real, and not as an illusion.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 044

Postby ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:39 pm

Am I the only one to think Stanley would benefit a lot of popping a heir? I mean: he could get into some glorious action instead of staying back in the capital siting on his ass and taming sandwiches...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 044

Postby Lamech » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:58 pm

I'm still not seeing it. Vinnie put his hand right through the illusion dwagon. Jillian landed on the dwagon with Stanley and Jack on it in panel 4, and the O'rly to walnut transformation occurred in panel 3. This seems to indicate that this was actually Stanley and Jack and dwagon, and that the transformation did indeed take place for real, and not as an illusion.
I don't think being able to "touch" the dwagon is a good indication. In panel 5 the gwiffion chomps down hard on it. But that MUST be an illusion, since the dwagon looks distincly unchomped later, and didn't ya know DIE. Urg damn foolamancy. Hmm... the fake bat cloud first appears in panel three, so we know SOME foolamancy is going on at that point. I guess we can't really be sure on when the change happens.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 044

Postby the_tick_rules » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:18 am

╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:Am I the only one to think Stanley would benefit a lot of popping a heir? I mean: he could get into some glorious action instead of staying back in the capital siting on his ass and taming sandwiches...


I think he loves himself too much to risk his life even if his side would continue.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 044

Postby Squishalot » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:28 am

Oberon wrote:I forgot to mention yesterday that I very much liked your proposition for maximizing dwagon taming.
Lamech wrote:Mount an archon and cycle it through a dwagon relay. Every dwagon lets her check 50 hexes, so four dwagons find one. Have the guy with the hammer do the same thing, he'll probably be able to get to the dwagons a lot quicker of course. (Maybe one dwagon per dwagon here, someone better at probablity want to comment?) If your willing to risk dwagons, and have enough mountain hexes, you stand to gain ONE dwagon, for every fiveish(?) dwagons you risk. A 20% turn interest rates on dwagons? You could get a LOT of dwagons, bet you might be able to feed them with dwagons.

If I can work up the initiative I might look up the comic where Parson works out the odds of finding dwagons and helps Stanley feel more useful again, and work the odds for the scenario you've outlined.


Sorry to burst your bubble guys, but archons can't be mounted on dwagons. Otherwise, the entire archon fleet hanging around above Jetstone would have been grounded.

Parson's calcs on dwagon hunting already essentially assume that you're going to grab every wild dwagon within (dwagon move distance / 2) hexes from GK. 600-700 mountain hexes within movement range (noting that high mountains require three move) is about a 14 hex radius (approximately), 1/200 chance of finding a dwagon in any given hex. Plated red can move 56, meaning that it can move up to 28 normal hexes away and back, or 14 (standard) mountain hexes away and back, and potentially as low as 9 high mountain hexes. There are other dwagons that have more than 56 move that could potentially obtain more, which explains the average 14 hex radius (to get 600 mountain hexes).

So in summary:

1) Archons scout *every single hex* within 14 hexes of GK (i.e. movement range).
2) Stanley hops on a dwagon, goes out and tames one, comes back, swaps dwagons, goes out and tames the next one, repeats until all within range are tamed.
3) On average, there will be 3 dwagons within movement range allowing Stanley to return to GK.

Therefore, there's no way of accelerating dwagon taming above and beyond what Parson has already worked out, short of having heaps of dwagons and archons stationed around the Minty Mountains, ready to expand scouting and relays further away from the capitol. The limiting factor is the movement of Stanley, not the movement of the Archons.

References:
http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F046a.jpg
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 044

Postby Lamech » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:07 am

Parson's calcs on dwagon hunting already essentially assume that you're going to grab every wild dwagon within (dwagon move distance / 2) hexes from GK. 600-700 mountain hexes within movement range (noting that high mountains require three move) is about a 14 hex radius (approximately), 1/200 chance of finding a dwagon in any given hex. Plated red can move 56, meaning that it can move up to 28 normal hexes away and back, or 14 (standard) mountain hexes away and back, and potentially as low as 9 high mountain hexes. There are other dwagons that have more than 56 move that could potentially obtain more, which explains the average 14 hex radius (to get 600 mountain hexes).

I don't think all nearby hexes are mountains. At the very least they have roads and what not for the siege.
Therefore, there's no way of accelerating dwagon taming above and beyond what Parson has already worked out, short of having heaps of dwagons and archons stationed around the Minty Mountains, ready to expand scouting and relays further away from the capitol. The limiting factor is the movement of Stanley, not the movement of the Archons.
The move of Stanley is certainly not the case. Remember the dwagon relay? They can just have one of those in the mountains. They won't be risking anything more than what they are already risking in setting up any other branch of the relay in the first place. Maybe even less since other sides might wrongly conclude that nothing of value is located in the mountains.
Sorry to burst your bubble guys, but archons can't be mounted on dwagons. Otherwise, the entire archon fleet hanging around above Jetstone would have been grounded.
How? The harvested dwagons wouldn't work; I don't see why those would be any different then any other random item. Like say... the archons clothing. Maybe the overloaded dwagons, but it might have the same issue as the dwagon corspe route. Or they might simply not qualify for a fall, being a flying unit and all. And I do note that Jillian's rescue plan included mounting THREE warlords. Which would mean Vinny, Tarfu, and Ansom. So at least some flying people CAN sit on mounts. Finally at the very least JACK could fill the roll of the archons, since this http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2009-12-20.png, pretty heavily implies foolamancers see through viels. Hmm... if only they still had the all mighty table.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 044

Postby Squishalot » Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:28 am

I don't think all nearby hexes are mountains. At the very least they have roads and what not for the siege.

It doesn't really matter, it's primarily semantics. If we're assuming a lot of non-mountain hexes, in order to find 600 mountain hexes, the radius has to be wider. The point is, the entire grabbable area is covered already.

The move of Stanley is certainly not the case. Remember the dwagon relay? They can just have one of those in the mountains. They won't be risking anything more than what they are already risking in setting up any other branch of the relay in the first place. Maybe even less since other sides might wrongly conclude that nothing of value is located in the mountains.

Did you not read what you quoted? "short of having heaps of dwagons and archons stationed around the Minty Mountains, ready to expand scouting and relays further away from the capitol"

Again, the movement of the Archons isn't a limiting factor, because you can just plant them wherever you want in scouting positions. Stanley, on the other hand, needs to be able to make it back to GK at the end of each turn. The reason why you need that extra dwagons is because Stanley needs to be able to go there and back. It uses twice as many as a single-directional relay. My point is that any dwagon taming is conditional on him being able to make it back to GK, and hence, that's the limitation, not the distance that the Archons travel.

The harvested dwagons wouldn't work; I don't see why those would be any different then any other random item. Like say... the archons clothing. Maybe the overloaded dwagons, but it might have the same issue as the dwagon corspe route.

Why wouldn't either work? You can mount multiple people on each dwagon; what would prevent an Archon sitting tandem with the hobgobwins or the warlords, if they could mount?

Therefore, the evidence in the most recent series of comics suggests that archons can't mount dwagons. This is somewhat contradicted by the understanding that Vinny was to be picked up by Jillian. I'm not 100% convinced either way, but I'm inclined to accept more recent evidence than early-comic evidence.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 044

Postby Atomic » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:32 am

Squishalot wrote:Therefore, the evidence in the most recent series of comics suggests that archons can't mount dwagons. This is somewhat contradicted by the understanding that Vinny was to be picked up by Jillian. I'm not 100% convinced either way, but I'm inclined to accept more recent evidence than early-comic evidence.
Three points, because that strip keeps getting brought up... Totally not picking on you, just quoting you 'cause you were the last to say it!! :lol:
1.) We're not sure if Archons can't mount the dwagons, or can't fall while on the dwagons. Perhaps they can't do either. Given that the Archons have the Flight-special, common sense would be that the Titans (or maybe the special ability itself) wouldn't allow such an event to take place. In the same way dwagons can't just stop flapping their wings while in the airspace above Spacerock...If the Archons were living they'd need to be croaked (harvested) first. Mmm. Cannibalism. (I joke, I joke!!)
2.) We're not sure if Archons are going to play a role in the upcoming battle or not. Just because they're not doing anything right now doesn't mean they won't serve a purpose (or purple, as I first typed out) later on in the book. If only to absorb arrows/air defenses, they'd be well worth the sacrifice. Compounded by the fact it prevents the Jetstone Royal Family from escaping via the air? Yes please. It doesn't hurt to mention we have no idea how powerful Archons are on the ground, either...so, yeah, they're probably serving a better job up there with Ossomer.
3.) We, the readers of Erfworld, were alerted by Rob the one-and-only time Retconjurationism took place. I have faith that if (when) another change takes place, Rob will alert us... Actually, he did. Shmuckers. Whatevs. Anyway, my point being, we don't have to pick between more recent evidence and early-comic evidence. It's all still valid until otherwise spoken out of existence! :)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 044

Postby Musrum » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:49 am

Squishalot wrote:
Again, the movement of the Archons isn't a limiting factor, because you can just plant them wherever you want in scouting positions. Stanley, on the other hand, needs to be able to make it back to GK at the end of each turn. The reason why you need that extra dwagons is because Stanley needs to be able to go there and back. It uses twice as many as a single-directional relay. My point is that any dwagon taming is conditional on him being able to make it back to GK, and hence, that's the limitation, not the distance that the Archons travel.
Assuming a wild dragon pops will full move, Stanley's maximum range is a full Dragon move. One to get out and one (newly tamed) one to get back.

He might even be able to go further than this if multiple Dragons found: potentially exhausting his last tamed Dragon's move at 1/2 Dragon move distance from GK (to be pulled back by an existing GK Dragon).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 044

Postby raphfrk » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:08 am

Squishalot wrote:Therefore, there's no way of accelerating dwagon taming above and beyond what Parson has already worked out, short of having heaps of dwagons and archons stationed around the Minty Mountains, ready to expand scouting and relays further away from the capitol. The limiting factor is the movement of Stanley, not the movement of the Archons.


Stanley can be mounted, so he has effectively unlimited range (subject to having enough dwagons).

They could station archons at every one of his cities and then he would have a 14 radius around all his cities.

If he has enough dwagons and relays are set up, he can cover any distance. There does seem to be a sleep limit. Ansom was tired when he had to stay awake for days due to the use of the relay to report personally to Stanley. However, Stanley would only have to go directly to where the dwagons are stored.

The archons, not Stanley, are the limiting factor. They can only scan a certain number of hexes.

Also, I wonder if they can really pierce all veils with 100% reliability. Would a foolamancer of Jack's ability be able to keep a small strike force hidden. Ofc, the archons only need to do a high grade scan on hexes that Stanley will pass through, and they should be pretty random.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 044

Postby pm123 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:23 am

Been a lot of posts along the line of "isn't it nice Stanley has faith in Parson after all?"

I suspect much of that sentiment is due to Stanley still being under the influence of Maggie's suggestion. He even seems to doubt his thoughts while thinking them, as if Maggie's overriden his usual mentality for awhile. For example:

Hamster was gonna fix all that. He wasn't sure how, but that was Hamster's problem. Wasn't it? Sure it was. Sure it was. Hamster could handle anything. He should just sit tight and stay out of this one.


That sounds more like Maggie to Stanley, than Stanley to me.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 044

Postby joosy » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:36 am

Lamech wrote:
I'm still not seeing it. Vinnie put his hand right through the illusion dwagon. Jillian landed on the dwagon with Stanley and Jack on it in panel 4, and the O'rly to walnut transformation occurred in panel 3. This seems to indicate that this was actually Stanley and Jack and dwagon, and that the transformation did indeed take place for real, and not as an illusion.
I don't think being able to "touch" the dwagon is a good indication. In panel 5 the gwiffion chomps down hard on it. But that MUST be an illusion, since the dwagon looks distincly unchomped later, and didn't ya know DIE. Urg damn foolamancy. Hmm... the fake bat cloud first appears in panel three, so we know SOME foolamancy is going on at that point. I guess we can't really be sure on when the change happens.


My take on it was that Jack used the distraction of the dwagon's fire breath attack to begin the Foolamancy. You can see the bats near the red dwagon in panel 2 and completely to the side and moving away in the rest of the panels. Not sure what Jillian was jumping on to and stabbing, but it was truly a master class distraction.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 044

Postby Smoker » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:07 am

joosy wrote:My take on it was that Jack used the distraction of the dwagon's fire breath attack to begin the Foolamancy. You can see the bats near the red dwagon in panel 2 and completely to the side and moving away in the rest of the panels. Not sure what Jillian was jumping on to and stabbing, but it was truly a master class distraction.


I suppose thats the thing. Jack is a bad MF (masterclass foolamancer :P ), and his distractions are so friggen awesome, you cant even figure them out in hindsight.

I guess its like Erfworlds theory on Time. Our brains just will not accept how it works, but it seems that it does anyway. I like this.. If anything it gives it a greater feeling of realism, because applying any kind of pseudo-science to magic systems always makes them... well.. shit.

So yeah, a wizard did it.
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