Book 2 – Page 57

[effataigus]

One thing that comes to mind just now is that it might not be the portals, but the Magic Kingdom itself that doesn't permit non-casters to exist in it. The distinction is minor but does have a few implications. e.g. Do we actually know (forgive me if this is actually a known thing) where it is? It could be off-Erf in a slightly altered plane of reality where the rules are slightly different (the reason I wonder is because society there seems much more like Stupidworld - people work and have to grow food, currency is just currency etc.).

It also leaves open the possibility of a combination of both ideas: perhaps in the early days of the world the Magic Kingdom wasn't sacrosanct or neutral, but the barbarian casters wanted a neutral home for themselves so the Great Minds set up some kind of permanent enchantment using a set of linked casters on "guard duty"; it automatically fries anyone who comes through right after they appear (we also know that three linked casters are unspeakably powerful, and that there are many barbarian casters and powerful Thinkamancers in the Magic KIngdom; they could have set up something even bigger, say five or ten linked casters, to defend their home).

Careful... if you expand the realm of possibility too far beyond our few in-story constraints this close to April Fool's day, you're likely to find Parson getting arrested by a couple hundred Kraken riding in a clown police car.

[effataigus]

Hmmm,

I count (edit 10) portals in portal park... though it is clear that there could be many more off screen. Still though, not quite so many as I would expect to see given the number of casters chilling in TMK... unless most of the casters present are the remnants of sides that have come and gone. If there is indeed 1 portal for every existing side, I would guess, from the geometry of portal park, that there are between 8 and 32 sides total. If the great western conflict really represents 1/4th of the world, the higher range would be about right.

I'm curious about the underground portion of the portals... some interesting engineering there.

I was half expecting to see an unusual number of thinkamancers present given the past updates... or at least Isaac.

Interesting to note that the woman with the crown is there again (as she was when Parson was just waking up back in book 1, but not when he first came through and Spock hit him IIRC). Perhaps she is one of the Portal Park guards? There was an update about guards being stationed in the area since Parson's hijinx?

As always, answers come bearing new-questions.

[falldowngoboom]

As for Van de Graff and Hammertime, those just look like shockamancy blasts. Again, powerful, but not quite the Titan-level of power an arkentool should have. Seriously, it should do something really game-changing, beyond just being a powerful weapon and allowing access to a special mount.

I disagree. In the panel on this page, http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F113.jpg , we see Stanley use Van de Graff. Not that impressive until you remember that the bats in Caesar's stack are heavy equivalents. That means that Stanley killed 29 heavy bats and hit Caesar (Chief Warlord of T) hard enough to be left floating incapacitated (pic 7 background) in one shot. He did this with one attack and without getting wounded.

Without more information on that attack: Can it be used multiple times in a turn? If so how many times? Was that the maximum number of hits it allows? If not, what is the limit? We could easily lump that into the group of one of the more powerful spells we've seen in action.

[effataigus]

As for Van de Graff and Hammertime, those just look like shockamancy blasts. Again, powerful, but not quite the Titan-level of power an arkentool should have. Seriously, it should do something really game-changing, beyond just being a powerful weapon and allowing access to a special mount.

I disagree. In the panel on this page, http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F113.jpg , we see Stanley use Van de Graff. Not that impressive until you remember that the bats in Caesar's stack are heavy equivalents. That means that Stanley killed 29 heavy bats and hit Caesar (Chief Warlord of T) hard enough to be left floating incapacitated (pic 7 background) in one shot. He did this with one attack and without getting wounded.

Without more information on that attack: Can it be used multiple times in a turn? If so how many times? Was that the maximum number of hits it allows? If not, what is the limit? We could easily lump that into the group of one of the more powerful spells we've seen in action.

Well, those bats were only "almost like heavies" because of leadership stacking. Van De Graff was also augmented by leadership... and I'm guessing Stanley has a reasonable bonus due to his large implied amount of combat experience.

In my opinion, the most abusable aspect of the hammer's combat potential that we know of is ability to combine the dance-fight (multiplier, I think?) bonus with the artifact bonus (and any available leadership) for any given battle.

Oh, and taming dwagons. Of course, I'd still say that the known powers of the other tools are better than the known powers of the hammer! All the more reason for Stanley to experiment.

[Zeku]

What kind of magic is portal magic? Wakfuism? GlaDostication?

What's the blue thing that is underground on the left side of the last panel?

[Oberon]

We could easily lump that [Van de Graaf] into the group of one of the more powerful spells we've seen in action.

It is certainly the most potent combat spell/effect we have seen. Nothing else has had the same impact against units of a fairly well known strength. Even without knowing how repeatable it is, the 'hammer is the top 'tool for pure combat effectiveness. Add in stop! Hammertime and the hinted at but not yet seen capability to make targets simply disappear, and the 'hammer really needs to be factored out as the 'weakest' of the known arkentools. Least subtle, sure. But that's not the same thing at all.

The 'dish is the most subtle 'tool, with it's capability for spying via listening in in thinkagrams, eavesdropping on other potent (requires a tri-mancer link to create) items such as the eyebooks, tugging on g-strings, and using veiled archons to collect intelligence as was so ably demonstrated by Charlie revealing the exact strength of Haggar. This is a wonderful capability, but not one which directly beats in faces, as the 'hammer does. Different strokes for different folks. If the 'tools were all equal in every way,it'd be a rather dull story.

[Dark Matter]

Stan is a former chief warlord where he led his people through enough successful battles to become heir. Presumably that stacks with him also being current ruler and on top of that he's got an artifact bonus.

Worse, Dragons are his to command, presumably (like croakmancers and undead), they get an extra bonus when fighting next to him.

And for all of that, he's an idiot. We're being fed clues that the hammer is just as game breakingly powerful as the others, it's just that he's never bothered to fully learn about it. He's using it as a hammer, in reality it's supposed to be a massive tool.

Instead Stanley is the tool.

[No one in particular]

Another problem with this theory is Duty. Queen Bea just sent her casters through the portal, then croaked herself using it. If she had enough cooperation from her casters to believe they would keep to the pledge to only serve royal sides when she was gone, their duty/loyalty must have been decent. Decent enough that Vanna and Co probably wouldn't be around, because they'd no doubt have come to the defense of their queen when they realized she was in hex and still alive.

Here's how I see suicide-by-portal vs duty working out: first, the casters knew Bea would still be alive after passing through the portal. Second, they knew she would be immediately recognized as a non-caster and attacked. And most importantly, they KNEW their Ruler was planning a suicide. Is their Duty to "protect their Ruler" or "obey their wishes"? If she wanted to die, wouldn't they actually be going against Duty by trying to protect her?

Alternately, you know, they were just too far away to do anything or it was over too quickly for them to react. I mean, a lone, unarmed Ruler vs who knows how many stacks of casters? I imagine that was a one-round fight.

Sometimes it's easier to just believe what's been put in front of you. The portal croaks non casters. Though I do think it's Parson's stats rather than any magic that makes him what he is. The portals have a "is this a caster? Y/N" protocol, which disbands anything that's not Y. But Parson shows up as a "*" or something on the protocol, so it just flashes ERROR and doesn't activate the croaking.

I think if it was a conscious caster thing, than he'd have been croaked before they could think about it. The casters would see he's not one of theirs, and that'd be enough. Some would be curiuos as to what he was, but at least one would have been shooting instead of hesitation. They hesitated precisely because this had never happened before. The fact that he had a patron speak for him is still probably what saved his life, that and the fact he was incapacitated.

Ah, but they WOULDN'T see that he wasn't one of them! New units are popped all the time, so any casters on guard duty would have to take a moment to check newcomers before just blasting away, and accidentally killing some new dollamancer. Remember, Casters, like Warlords, can see Unit stats... which would include the tag of Special: Caster. As a screening method, this would work fine, normally... except that Parson's stats are invisible. This would lead to the casters pulling out the wands, but not firing. After all, maybe it's a new weirdomancer, and he's removed his caster special and needs help? Or it's a Foolamancer who's veiling himself as himself, only not as a caster, just to mess with everyone?

Also, since when has Parson ever settled for "it's easier to just believe what's been put in front of you"? If he did that, we never would have seen him ride a Banana! :p

[No one in particular]

Another problem with this theory is Duty. Queen Bea just sent her casters through the portal, then croaked herself using it. If she had enough cooperation from her casters to believe they would keep to the pledge to only serve royal sides when she was gone, their duty/loyalty must have been decent. Decent enough that Vanna and Co probably wouldn't be around, because they'd no doubt have come to the defense of their queen when they realized she was in hex and still alive.

Here's how I see suicide-by-portal vs duty working out: first, the casters knew Bea would still be alive after passing through the portal. Second, they knew she would be immediately recognized as a non-caster and attacked. And most importantly, they KNEW their Ruler was planning a suicide. Is their Duty to "protect their Ruler" or "obey their wishes"? If she wanted to die, wouldn't they actually be going against Duty by trying to protect her?

Alternately, you know, they were just too far away to do anything or it was over too quickly for them to react. I mean, a lone, unarmed Ruler vs who knows how many stacks of casters? I imagine that was a one-round fight.

Sometimes it's easier to just believe what's been put in front of you. The portal croaks non casters. Though I do think it's Parson's stats rather than any magic that makes him what he is. The portals have a "is this a caster? Y/N" protocol, which disbands anything that's not Y. But Parson shows up as a "*" or something on the protocol, so it just flashes ERROR and doesn't activate the croaking.

I think if it was a conscious caster thing, than he'd have been croaked before they could think about it. The casters would see he's not one of theirs, and that'd be enough. Some would be curiuos as to what he was, but at least one would have been shooting instead of hesitation. They hesitated precisely because this had never happened before. The fact that he had a patron speak for him is still probably what saved his life, that and the fact he was incapacitated.

Ah, but they WOULDN'T see that he wasn't one of them! New units are popped all the time, so any casters on guard duty would have to take a moment to check newcomers before just blasting away, and accidentally killing some new dollamancer. Remember, Casters, like Warlords, can see Unit stats... which would include the tag of Special: Caster. As a screening method, this would work fine, normally... except that Parson's stats are invisible. This would lead to the casters pulling out the wands, but not firing. After all, maybe it's a new weirdomancer, and he's removed his caster special and needs help? Or it's a Foolamancer who's veiling himself as himself, only not as a caster, just to mess with everyone?

Also, since when has Parson ever settled for "it's easier to just believe what's been put in front of you"? If he did that, we never would have seen him ride a Banana! :p

[Smoker]

Does leadership add hits though? Otherwise we might be looking at 29 bats who can hit like Twolls but die like flies.

In other news:

And most importantly, they KNEW their Ruler was planning a suicide. Is their Duty to "protect their Ruler" or "obey their wishes"? If she wanted to die, wouldn't they actually be going against Duty by trying to protect her?

No. Duty compells a unit to do what is best for the side regardless of their orders. Thats why Webinar disobeyed Ansom, and Wanda disobeyed Stanley.

Ah, but they WOULDN'T see that he wasn't one of them! New units are popped all the time, so any casters on guard duty would have to take a moment to check newcomers before just blasting away, and accidentally killing some new dollamancer. Remember, Casters, like Warlords, can see Unit stats... which would include the tag of Special: Caster. As a screening method, this would work fine, normally... except that Parson's stats are invisible. This would lead to the casters pulling out the wands, but not firing. After all, maybe it's a new weirdomancer, and he's removed his caster special and needs help? Or it's a Foolamancer who's veiling himself as himself, only not as a caster, just to mess with everyone?

Then how did they know Qeen bea wasn't a weirdomancer/foolamancer making him/herself look like a queen for a day? If you can hide stats, surely you can forge them also.

[Chit Rule Railroad]

Does leadership add hits though? Otherwise we might be looking at 29 bats who can hit like Twolls but die like flies.

The Jetstone casters thought Ossomer would make archons harder to croak if he stacked up with them, even though he'd be using them to screen himself. "The longer he lives, the tougher they are."

[No one in particular]

And most importantly, they KNEW their Ruler was planning a suicide. Is their Duty to "protect their Ruler" or "obey their wishes"? If she wanted to die, wouldn't they actually be going against Duty by trying to protect her?

No. Duty compells a unit to do what is best for the side regardless of their orders. Thats why Webinar disobeyed Ansom, and Wanda disobeyed Stanley.

According to Klog 10, Duty "requires us to use our own initiative in the service of the Ruler." When Webinar disobeyed Ansom, it wasn't for the side, it was because he thought taking the shortcut would be the best way to do what Ansom really wanted: finding Jillian. As for Wanda... in her words, her Duty lies with Fate.

Ah, but they WOULDN'T see that he wasn't one of them! New units are popped all the time, so any casters on guard duty would have to take a moment to check newcomers before just blasting away, and accidentally killing some new dollamancer. Remember, Casters, like Warlords, can see Unit stats... which would include the tag of Special: Caster. As a screening method, this would work fine, normally... except that Parson's stats are invisible. This would lead to the casters pulling out the wands, but not firing. After all, maybe it's a new weirdomancer, and he's removed his caster special and needs help? Or it's a Foolamancer who's veiling himself as himself, only not as a caster, just to mess with everyone?

Then how did they know Qeen bea wasn't a weirdomancer/foolamancer making him/herself look like a queen for a day? If you can hide stats, surely you can forge them also.

Parson was immediately vouched for by Janis, while Bea was not.

[Smoker]

According to Klog 10, Duty "requires us to use our own initiative in the service of the Ruler." When Webinar disobeyed Ansom, it wasn't for the side, it was because he thought taking the shortcut would be the best way to do what Ansom really wanted: finding Jillian. As for Wanda... in her words, her Duty lies with Fate.

Ok fair enough. It's hard to draw the line between good for the Ruler and good for the Side. In either case, we see Wanda disobey an order because she is convinced it will lead to Stanley's destruction. She's not doing it to get what Stanley wants (ie a really cool warlord), she's doing for his preservation. (And yeah, Wanda isn't the most loyal person, but the fact that she pulls this act in Stanley's face makes me think its SOP for such occasions, rare as they might be.)

Another example is Tramennis over-ruling Slately multiple times, even threatening to tie him up. That's not doing what Slately wants, its doing what he needs.

How about Ben and Don? Don really has his heart set on this whole royalty thing, but Ben and many other units are all looking at what is best for the side.

In any case, with any wording, there's no example in the comic that would allow a unit to let its Ruler commit suicide.

Of course you could just say that the Unaroyal Casters didn't know she was going to do it (But personally I think they must have known - why else remove your Casters from a capital fight?)

Parson was immediately vouched for by Janis, while Bea was not.

Immediately? I recall her appearing on scene mid way through Parson explaining himself. He might have bought a few moments due to his lack of stats being a bit confusing, but he was pretty much saying outright to the "guards" that he is not a Caster, and he didn't know why he didn't disband. If that's not enough evidence for the "guards" then well.. they're pretty bad at their job.

[Smoker]

Does leadership add hits though? Otherwise we might be looking at 29 bats who can hit like Twolls but die like flies.

The Jetstone casters thought Ossomer would make archons harder to croak if he stacked up with them, even though he'd be using them to screen himself. "The longer he lives, the tougher they are."

Nice pick up

[BLANDCorporatio]

Parson was immediately vouched for by Janis, while Bea was not.

Bea is alive and well, chatting with MLK somewhere in the MK.

And her soldiers that were alive at the time of her passing are now inside a poke-ball, waiting to be unleashed when a *cough*new side pops somewhere in Erfworld.

[Quincunx]

. . .So what does a city held by barbarians pop? Nothing? Does it produce schmuckers? How do they pay for upkeep?

If that Pen (the nib of a Quill, actually) embedded in the ground doesn't give the Magic Kingdom the ability to write blank checks to support itself, I would be astonished. Pacifist sides (with or without the question mark*) are allowed some leeway in their game-breaking powerups provided they don't use them to go to war. . .to battle. Of course, when someone eventually pushes them into war, they have all the resources of a kingdom that hasn't had its wealth bled away by previous wars, or they have evolved ways to fight without battles or troops or cities or juice or turns. . .

In other words, why hold a city, instead of remaining safe in the MK? Add in the general disorganization of the MK and it's clear why they aren't (or at least, have not been) a game breaking force.

The MK has several, potentially competing, factions. The thinkamancers all seem to hate and fear Charlie, because he is in their base, killing their d00dz. The hippymancers and at least Marie and some set of TGMWTA seem to be promoting Parson as the last, great hope, while the vast majority of the MK casters seem to be hostile towards Parson for not being a true caster and having dared to enter the MK and not die. There isn't one leader of the MK, it seems to be a loosely organized anarchy-meritocracy. Unless someone steps up and becomes a leader through general charisma or a resonant cause, the MK will remain a powerful but impotent force on Erf. They can effect change through agents, but not directly.

Answered your own question there. In a city or a kingdom, you can get ¤(/% done without waiting for a consensus--see also Jillian eventually twigging that a kingdom of her own meant she could disobey battle orders and still get paid. Even in a turn-based game, the time required eventually weighs against the consensus-seekers. At least you can write, wield the quill, in real-time and on your own initiative; a good enough pacifist can ruin the alliance of any warlord with a sufficiently pointed post. Parson rejected the Sword. Will he instead choose the Pen?

*I played a turn-based wargame, called Archmage then and played more as a political wargame than otherwise**, and the Reincarnation now. There were two guilds of pacifists, one calling themselves the Pacifists? and the other the Pen is Mightier than the Sword, and both of them punched well above their net power by maintaining neutrality until someone in this wargame just couldn't stand that vexing neutrality any longer and struck the first conventional blow. . .but pacifists almost always struck the final one, after the entire game turned against the attacker.

If the circumstances of Archmage mean anything for Erfworld, and they do not, let it be known the six-foot-tall hamsters were allied with the leader of the Pen. However, peppy campfire songs were not part of the Pen repertoire. *dances back to Progrock, trilling "Oh the men of Transylvito"*

**Come to think of it, with the number of alphabet-soup employees playing the game at some times, someone may well have been using it (or justifying it on the timesheets) as a political sim. Ye gods.

[RichMan]

Parson may not be counted as a magic user by the magic kingdom. Things that exist in the magic kingdom are the magic users and the magic items they create. Perhaps Parson gets a pass on entry as he was created by a magic spell.

This would leave open the question of what uncroaked and decrypted units can do.

[kagato23]

Here's how I see suicide-by-portal vs duty working out: first, the casters knew Bea would still be alive after passing through the portal. Second, they knew she would be immediately recognized as a non-caster and attacked. And most importantly, they KNEW their Ruler was planning a suicide. Is their Duty to "protect their Ruler" or "obey their wishes"? If she wanted to die, wouldn't they actually be going against Duty by trying to protect her?

Alternately, you know, they were just too far away to do anything or it was over too quickly for them to react. I mean, a lone, unarmed Ruler vs who knows how many stacks of casters? I imagine that was a one-round fight.

I think if it was a conscious caster thing, than he'd have been croaked before they could think about it. The casters would see he's not one of theirs, and that'd be enough. Some would be curiuos as to what he was, but at least one would have been shooting instead of hesitation. They hesitated precisely because this had never happened before. The fact that he had a patron speak for him is still probably what saved his life, that and the fact he was incapacitated.

Ah, but they WOULDN'T see that he wasn't one of them! New units are popped all the time, so any casters on guard duty would have to take a moment to check newcomers before just blasting away, and accidentally killing some new dollamancer. Remember, Casters, like Warlords, can see Unit stats... which would include the tag of Special: Caster. As a screening method, this would work fine, normally... except that Parson's stats are invisible. This would lead to the casters pulling out the wands, but not firing. After all, maybe it's a new weirdomancer, and he's removed his caster special and needs help? Or it's a Foolamancer who's veiling himself as himself, only not as a caster, just to mess with everyone?

Also, since when has Parson ever settled for "it's easier to just believe what's been put in front of you"? If he did that, we never would have seen him ride a Banana! :p[/quote]

What Parson see's and what we seem from what narration tells us are two different things. Essentially the Titan's narrate this story, after all.

But a few things that pull me towards this direction:

1. Their portal was under guard.

Maggie makes it a point to mention this. The way she states this implies that there is not, normally, a guard. Likely because there has never needed to be.

2. (in same post) There is debate in the magic kingdom about if he should have been croaked or not. Invisible stats or no, once they knew what he was, if there was indeed a universal policy of "croak every non caster we find in here", there would be no debate. They'd have opened fire as soon as he started talking and acknowledging he wasn't supposed to be there. Janis then extended her protection, but I doubt that would have been tolerated if she was breaking an age-old precedent. Rather, there was no precedent because this had never happened before.

3. Nobody told this to Parson. By now, surely Maggie and Sizemore, who appreciate that the more information he has the better he is, would have clarified the issue. Informed him that the general rule is to blast non-casters when they step through.Everything we've seen so far implies that anybody but a caster or parson that goes through that portal ceases to be.

Which leads to:

4. No invasion of the magic kingdom. Yeah, they are casters. But they are unaligned which means many probably don't and can't provide bonuses to each other. Even the barbarians who perhaps can stack up don't get a leadership bonus. What's stopped any warlord who wanted to from marching a whole booping army in there and just taking the place? Sure, casualties would be high, but the rewards from so many potential captured casters would be invaluable. Enough that it would not be a safe place unless they militarized up themselves, which leads us back to #1.

[Maeltne]

Has this been brought up before?

From: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/ ... rmission_2

Specifically

The old city had lacked a front gate, a configuration which gave extra strength to the outer walls and avoided a specific weak point. The trade-off was that they'd had to deploy all of their non-fliers out through the tunnels. That was why their only heavy units were Spidews and Dwagons.

Will Parson even be able to enter the tunnel?

[Berserkas]

Will Parson even be able to enter the tunnel?

Yes. He's been down in the tunnels already with Sizemore.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F077b.jpg
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F078.jpg

Some heavy units can enter tunnels, remember? Like Spidews. And i assume twolls.