omfg...is it a swiss army hammer?

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omfg...is it a swiss army hammer?

Postby Malanthyus » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:20 pm

This has probably been thought up before, and if so I'll delete this.

With that said, what if the Arkenhammer is different than the other arkentools? Instead of having a -huge- amount of power in one magic type, it has a surprising amount of power in all or almost all the axis? Part of what's confused speculation on the hammer is how many different abilities it seems to have, instead of the rather singular types of the arkenpliers and the arkendish.
What if it's the case where instead of "If you have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail", we have a hammer that can look like any problem?
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Re: omfg...is it a swiss army hammer?

Postby kagato23 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:11 pm

I think the problem with that, however, is that the other two tools have had something that could be considered game-breaking. Charlie has unlimited thinkagrams (or so much juice in that area that it may as well be) and can remote link. Wanda has all the advantages of uncroaking but none of the disadvantages, so much so that she has a new name for the far superior units it produces (and sparking a debate in the magic kingdom about how what she was doing was even possible).

Now, each of these tools does other things as well, but those are the aspects that are impossible to achieve to our knowledge without a tool. Things that otherwise aren't allowed in the game at all.

So, the thinking then is, in order to be equivalent, the hammer needs to do something like that. Something impossible to do without the tool. Something huge. I could see a future plot point being Hamster sitting down with the Tool to find that out, and using it sometime.
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Re: omfg...is it a swiss army hammer?

Postby Housellama » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:58 pm

kagato23 wrote:I think the problem with that, however, is that the other two tools have had something that could be considered game-breaking.


I gotta agree here.

kagato23 wrote:Charlie has unlimited thinkagrams (or so much juice in that area that it may as well be) and can remote link.


Not to mention the ability to intercept other thinkagrams, an ability we haven't seen any other caster display. That's the real game-breaker with Charlie. He has the (as far as we know) unique ability to spy on the most widely used remote communications method in the world. Not to mention the Archons, and Titans only knows what else that Charlie hasn't revealed. I would imagine that it has superior Lookamancy, and possibly some Findamancy as well.

kagato23 wrote:Wanda has all the advantages of uncroaking but none of the disadvantages, so much so that she has a new name for the far superior units it produces (and sparking a debate in the magic kingdom about how what she was doing was even possible).


That's not even the biggest game-breaker of the Arkenpliers. NO UPKEEP. For a game world where ultimately smuckers is king, the ability to create a self replicating army with NO UPKEEP is flat out unfair. Yes, it requires a bit of an investment to get it going, but once it starts, it's like a snowball. As long as you always manage to decrypt slightly more than you have dusted, you're going to win. And because the army has NO UPKEEP, you can leave it sitting around anywhere for as long as you need without issue. They have no expiration date. Plus, you can effectively use the same soldiers twice.

Far as I'm concerned, the Arkenpliers have trumped everything else we've seen. Currently the 'hammer is a very distant third. I suspect that there is more that it can do, a LOT more, but we just haven't seen it in play. This sounds like a job for PLOT!
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Re: omfg...is it a swiss army hammer?

Postby GaryThunder » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:42 pm

I'd say the Arkendish is as powerful as the Arkenpliers, if only in its versatility. Unlimited Thinkagrams, hacking Thinkagrams, popping Archons (quickly), sharing powers with Archons, remote linking, Kingworld...all sorts of stuff. Not one of its functions equals Decryption, but all of its powers together add up.
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Re: omfg...is it a swiss army hammer?

Postby Thunder » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:52 am

i dont think kingworld is something limited to the arkendish, although when it was used in the comic charlie was using the dish to link up remotely
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Re: omfg...is it a swiss army hammer?

Postby the_tick_rules » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:02 pm

We'll have to see if Tool can bring out any more awesome out of the hammer before we rate them.
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Re: omfg...is it a swiss army hammer?

Postby drachefly » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:14 pm

After this, it'd be a strangely structured story if he didn't!
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Re: omfg...is it a swiss army hammer?

Postby Housellama » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:47 pm

GaryThunder wrote:I'd say the Arkendish is as powerful as the Arkenpliers, if only in its versatility.


I'm not disagreeing. I think that the Arkenpliers edge out the Arkendish for first place on the basis of no upkeep, but it's a very near thing. I could make arguments either way.

the_tick_rules wrote:We'll have to see if Tool can bring out any more awesome out of the hammer before we rate them.


Oh, I have no doubt that all of the tools are equally awesome. I don't believe that any 'tool is better than any other 'tool. I think that they are probably all ridiculously gamebreaking (as Titan-level Artifacts should be), but you MUST remember that a 'tool is only as good as the person using it. The 'hammer has been only so-so because right now, Stanley's a mediocre leader AT BEST. He may be something on the field, which is why the one time we saw the 'hammer be awesome was in combat, but he's almost never IN combat.

I will be extremely disappointed if the 'hammer isn't proven (eventually) to be on the level of the 'dish and 'pliers. Rob's shown very good game development and sound strategic thinking skills up to this point. I can't imagine he'd create 4 game-breaking, story-driving Artifacts and have one of them be a lemon. He's better than that. If the 'hammer doesn't shine yet, it's because Rob's waiting for the right moment in the story. I have faith in Plot.
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Re: omfg...is it a swiss army hammer?

Postby Agarwaen » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:43 am

I'm personally of the opinion that the Arkentools represent an entire class of magic over one discipline. Wanda hasn't tried anything besides her Decryption power so we don't really know the limits of it. Charlie's super thinkagrams have a flavor of Foolamancy to them. It could be just the extra power but none of the other thinkagrams have shown the ability to project false images. Likewise, the only way he could possibly know about what Hagar is going to pop and when would be with some powerful Lookamancy. http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-03-19.png
All of the Arkenhammer's powers are similar to Real World stage magic. Stagemancy includes all elements so it's powers seem a bit scatter-shot. If he learns a trick, like making half your army disappear and reappear in your garrison, it would be just as game breaking as the others.
The attuners personalities mostly fit this: Wanda being Naughty, Charlie the All-Seeing-Eye, Stanley the out of control diva. Okay, the last one is a bit of a stretch. Stanley is Erfworld's Charlie Sheen. :)

I'm of the opinion that Charlie's beef with the decrypted archons might be that they are the only ones who actually know where Charlie's city is located. Ultimate Foolamancy could keep it safe from Findamancers and Lookamancers. I think his endgame plan was to build a fleet of archons and launch a simultaneous sneak attack on every side. He would be bolstered by making nearly every natural ally break alliance all at once with archons mopping up. It would be a giant coupe de grace on Erfworld. Having his location revealed puts him in jeopardy.

You know, assuming I'm correct, the last magic class with multiple elements is hippiemancy. 8 Arkentools seems like it would be way too much to juggle story-wise but a fourth was confirmed early.

Of course, I'm also of the opinion the Arkentools might not be tied directly to ANY magic at all. They would be limited by the imagination/knowledge of the wielder. If Wanda and Stanley switched tools, Wanda would still be able to decrypt and Stanley tame. Replacing one attuner with another would open a new suite of powers.
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Re: omfg...is it a swiss army hammer?

Postby Sylvan » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:47 am

Here is an interesting thought that is in line with the game-breaking nature of the Arkentools. The hammer can tap any discipline to give its wielder the effect he needs most at the time, but it is always a little random.

Need luck to survive the croakamancer's betrayal? (Undefended capitol my ass) You get +huge amounts of lucky freak spawns on the way there!

Need to fly to get away from a sword-swinging madwoman, or to get to yer chair? No problem.

Shock effects than can individually target a unit or spread to knock back a whole stack-o-bats fits the theme I'm building here.

Need combat bonuses? Rocking out is the highest form of music. Need to supplement yer army? Turning dwagons seems like it'd be mighty difficult turnamancy, or at least it would cost some juice. Can't step on the toes of the pliers too much with its instant army, but still.

What if the hammer could do other limited but powerful forms of every other kind of 'mancy? Changemancy with the birds into food, Shock, Rhyme with the rocking out. Weirdomancy is flying, Dollamancy could just be add damage bonuses against golems (it is a hammer). Turnamancy and Luckamancy have been mentioned. Dirtamancy is easy to imagine, Hat Magic and Carnymancy more difficult. Date-a-mancy explainable (if Stanley could sense, like Duncan, his own combat odds or the odds of others). The hammer could work gems in some way for moneymancy. I'll let people use their own imaginations for the rest, but I think the seeds are there for other disciplines.
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