What makes humans great, anyways?

[MuthSera]

Okay. So as previously mentioned at some point, I am making my own RPG.

I've been mulling it over, and I decided to throw this idea out there for people.

I want a system for custom creation of spells, ect.. THATS the part I've been working on. No problem. It's been alot of work, but I am making progress. But I also want a system for custom creation of a race, on the fly.

but what I want to avoid, is things like "Level adjustment" in my game.

I want to be able to mix and match abilities of a race, pulling possible ideas from a created list and create something new, quickly. (Think Masters of Orion 2.........) For instance. Things are DIFFERENT.. advantageous in different fields.. but not nessesarily more powerful than another race.

If I wanted to create something like a fairy.. I'd load up the following (hypothetical)abilities in my (unfinished) game.

Considering that baseline race come packed ready to cast spells, swing swords, walk arround, and talk(The normal stuff it is that we do.).. I might create a custom race something along the lines of:

Flyer.(+3) Incapable of combat. (-2) Negligible lifter. (-1)

*Fluff* Fairy. Very small creature. Due to it's size, it may not engage in meaningful Physically based combat with creatures unless they too are considered incapable of combat. (Other ultra smalls.) But is still capable of casting spells.

*** So you draw out the basic listed abilities untill it works. Then give it some fluff. Consider explaining each ability in some way in the race description. A fairy is typically magical. ect. No need to explain that. They have wings. They can fly. Reason for Combat incapability and negligible lifter are size. This could have just have easily been explained as a medium sized race of especially frail, especially weak humanoids that have the ability to levitate.... or some such. The abilities decide certain aspects of it. the fluff you back up your choices with decides the other half of things.


Non-spell caster. (-4) Burrower(+2) Non-breather (+1) Non-eater. (+1)

*fluff* A race of beings created after the introduction of magic into the world, and therefor Incapable of channeling magic the way most other races do. They look like (whatever), don't need to breathe or eat, being closer to golems or constructs than a typical living being. The only magic they are capable of benefiting from is an innate magical charge each member of their race carries, allowing them to manipulate earth, and displace it, to move through it as if they were slowly swimming. To them, it is as natural and normal as running, jumping, or sleeping is, to a human.

So if by chance you're still reading this, what I need to know.. is WHAT in the world makes humans so special or advantageous?

What is it that that humans possess that makes them very competative with other races? Or... what COULD humans, in a campaign, possess that would make them stand up as highly dominant folks? (in the general scheme of things.) What makes them stand above an imagined baseline "Blank sheet" race?

What can you take from a human that'd make up for something being powerful in another field? What should all humans have?

Powerful affinities for imbuement?
Extra diverse choices in character creation, otherwise impossible through custom race creation?

I feel like I'm grasping at straws. If all else fails, I should remember that humans from where I'm from can't evoke fireballs, raise the dead, Make dazzling illusions, or heal gaping wounds....... Without the need of special equipment. So perhaps, in and of it'self, the ability to do all of mentioned things with magic is all by it'self a step above a human?

--- MuthSera

[Kallisti]

Hmm, well, the advantage humans have in the real world over other species are intelligence, hands, our eyes (not the best but better than most animals for daytime vision, especially fine detail), endurance (at least when we're in shape, we can cover more distance in a day than most land animals).

Our primary disadvantages are an extremely long time to maturity, high calorie requirements (those brains aren't cheap) and a dependency on resources.

But pretty much every fantasy race has all of those.

[malekith]

ingenuity/intellect.
we are very good at manipulating the world around us using whatever resources we have to hand. even the dumbest of us can create mechanisms that other species can only dream of and usually from whatever's to hand. however this isn't always the case and there are different levels of ability within the species. also the time to make/use/do whatever needs to be can fluctuate greatly dependant on the task at hand. But there are lots of fantasy races out there that will be better at it than us (and im talking about generally being sentient and improvising within a situation not just specifically engineering/architecture) which is why D&D has LA for races because they start by adding uber abilities and taking them away as you are but sometimes they cant always balance it to 0 without breaking generally accepted fantasy lores or making the race have a gapingly huge disadvantage that you can drive a bus through.

M

[Gerwulf]

What makes the human special is that they are the frame of reference. They are the blank slate. No special abilities and no special hindrances. Your pixie can fly, but it can't fight; the golem can "swim" through earth but it can't cast magic. They traded one ability for the other. Every other race in the world has an advantage and a disadvantage, that’s what makes them different. By requiring the abilities and disabilities to offset each other so as to avoid a level adjustment you set the human as default. They don't need any special ability because they are the baseline, they don't need to be adjusted any.

One interesting way to set up a world of equal but adjustable races is to make the race dependant on the environment. Does the race come from the swamps, then they get an automatic bonus to resist disease and poison, but they require more water and arid conditions cause them severe pain. If the race comes from the mountains then they get a bonus to resisting cold damage, but their thicker body and slower metabolism leave them sluggish (penalty to dex or move) basically let them pick specific places or traits about their homeland and those traits give specific bonuses and penalties appropriate to the trait. Extras like flying or dark vision could come from a specific latitude or proximity to a geological anomaly. Pick 4 or 5 traits that they can choose from like latitude, longitude, environment, surface dweller or subterranean, and nocturnal or diurnal. Then assign bonuses and penalties to each option in those categories. They can pick and choose so that they end up with a unique race, and you don’t have to worry about balance, because they aren’t picking from a list of pros and a list of cons they are picking pre-balanced specifics that prevent them from min-maxing.

[MuthSera]

Hmm, well, the advantage humans have in the real world over other species are intelligence, hands, our eyes (not the best but better than most animals for daytime vision, especially fine detail), endurance (at least when we're in shape, we can cover more distance in a day than most land animals).

Our primary disadvantages are an extremely long time to maturity, high calorie requirements (those brains aren't cheap) and a dependency on resources.

Yes. Intelligence, fine manipulation of small objects.. the ability to see things.. typical things gamers assume their characters can do. <:3 And in actuality, each of these 3 have their reciprical disadvantages.

The 3 mentioned disadvantages would be rather difficult to impliment meaningfully into my game.

ingenuity/intellect.
which is why D&D has LA for races because they start by adding uber abilities and taking them away as you are but sometimes they cant always balance it to 0 without breaking generally accepted fantasy lores or making the race have a gapingly huge disadvantage that you can drive a bus through.

Mm. I threw this one in front of my balance gal and she was quick to jump on the fact that it was a bit unnessesary to require that everything add up to 0. Thats just the way it occured in my head. I could instead have a system where you can buy up to 5 or 10 or something above 0, rather than having 0 as a baseline. I could also write a list of abilities that could be added on in this maner that would be human friendly, but kind of represent a way that humans are diverse, as well. (No super powers.. but.. stuff like.. Affinity for transformation.. Affinity for Charm.) Stuff like that. So that playing one human from another might have minor differences, racially speaking, (our natural diverseness.) but tacking something like flying or somesuch would be out of the question.. cause it wouldn't be on the human approved list. <:3

Or I could have that remaining points gave you additional skillpoints(Very important in my game) per level/something else/blah.. I dunno.

What makes the human special is that they are the frame of reference. They are the blank slate. No special abilities and no special hindrances. Your pixie can fly, but it can't fight; the golem can "swim" through earth but it can't cast magic. They traded one ability for the other. Every other race in the world has an advantage and a disadvantage, that’s what makes them different. By requiring the abilities and disabilities to offset each other so as to avoid a level adjustment you set the human as default. They don't need any special ability because they are the baseline, they don't need to be adjusted any.

Well yes. It was my intention to make them the frame of referance, but it was also my intention to allow for the creation of races of a little bit of good.. omph behind them. I am prepared to make humans just.... more powerful in some way, to make up for it.. and the tradeoff of one ability for the next was only the begining, but definately what I had intended. Kinda.. Alchemical.

One interesting way to set up a world of equal but adjustable races is to make the race dependant on the environment. Does the race come from the swamps, then they get an automatic bonus to resist disease and poison, but they require more water and arid conditions cause them severe pain. If the race comes from the mountains then they get a bonus to resisting cold damage, but their thicker body and slower metabolism leave them sluggish (penalty to dex or move) basically let them pick specific places or traits about their homeland and those traits give specific bonuses and penalties appropriate to the trait. Extras like flying or dark vision could come from a specific latitude or proximity to a geological anomaly. Pick 4 or 5 traits that they can choose from like latitude, longitude, environment, surface dweller or subterranean, and nocturnal or diurnal. Then assign bonuses and penalties to each option in those categories. They can pick and choose so that they end up with a unique race, and you don’t have to worry about balance, because they aren’t picking from a list of pros and a list of cons they are picking pre-balanced specifics that prevent them from min-maxing.

Yeah.. I can break up the bonuses into different groups.. something based on enviorment, however the TYPE of bonuses we're looking at pretty much has to remain in the realm of statistical stuff. The kind of things you'd see in combat. Keeping in mind that my game tends to be very simplified in such respects. I'd prefer that all advantages and disadvantages circulate arround combat in some way. Not that I'm not about good flavor, but it helps.. at least a LITTLE BIT.. to stop minmaxing if the disadvantages will stop them from doing something else in combat. To an extent.. I want to satisfy people who'd want to try to minmax.. but I want them to be eating a disadvantage somewhere that will severely dampen them. Hell, it's my intention to put abilities like.. "Highly Regenerative" as advantages one could take. Be all.. trollish. <:3

But anyways..

Classes start in an hour and I haven't even started getting ready. I wanted to awnser this in a more thought out way. Gatta run! Thanks everyone. :O

[Unclever title]

I would consider the things that make certain people exceptional compared to other humans and either use those as advatages for a heroic kind of character or disadvantages for the consideration that they are "exceptional human beings."

One thing I'm thinking of just now in that regard would be willpower. I'd consider a "strong willed" person unusual, but that's kind of subjective. Of course "willpower" could mean a lot of things in terms of an RPG. For one it could be simply the consideration of the "will to fight on", which would be a thing ALL the playable characters would have by default, however it might be interesting to consider human beings as having an unusually high/low spell resistance (depending on the high vs. low will decision.)

I'd vote for a low spell resistance, maybe just -1 but probably more, considering the historical fears and such ascribed to magic. Heck for balance's sake and again along the lines of historical fears you could make set it with increased spell damage too.

Anyway that might not directly address base stats depending on how your system is/will be setup.

[President_Allosaurus]

If you ask me, there's nothing special about you humans we couldn't have eventually gotten around to anyways. I mean, hands and tool-crafting? Seriously? That's it? We would have driven you to extinction. Your only true skill is how gosh darn LUCKY you are to even exist, I tell you, gosh.

[Welf von Ehrwald]

Well, it's hard to define what makes humans makes special compared to other intelligent species, because on our our planet we are currently the only intelligent species. The last time we had competitors was about 50.000 years ago. It is not definite, but we exterminated the Neanderthaler, because we had a little higher innovation rate, were slightly more aggressive by taking over territory, weren't so specialised for one kind of living space and had a higher fertility rate. Unfortunatly these are all statistical effects that do not effect combat.
You could go for a versatility advantage: humans have a way broader canon of spell, because they have less resentment to experiment and try something new. They also can use every weapon and combat technique, because they tend to favour effectiveness rather then tradition. At least in the long term; a new weapon or spell may be disapproved by a generation, and appraised by their descendants 30 or 40 years later. For elves or dwarves a quite short time.

[MarbitChow]

What makes them stand above an imagined baseline "Blank sheet" race?

I have a hard time answering your question. Either we ARE the 'baseline', or you have to define the baseline for us.

Take a hive-mind drone as our baseline. Humans have the following:

• Learning - Humans can learn from experiences other humans communicate
• Independent action - individual humans can take full actions without a queen
• No physical specialization - all humans have the same basic physical abilities (no extra-hard shell or natural weaponry for solders, etc.)

If we take an energy being as our baseline, we might get the following:

• Corporeal - humans can easily make changes to the physical world
• Ephemeral - humans wear out and die over time, no matter how much energy is available to them.
• Not telepathic - humans must communicate through complex vocal noises instead of direct mind-to-mind communication

It's usually easiest to just assume humans are 'normal' based on whatever the game defines as normal, and go from there. But if you want to define a 'blank sheet', you've got to give us more detail as to what the system is.

[MuthSera]

I would consider the things that make certain people exceptional compared to other humans and either use those as advatages for a heroic kind of character or disadvantages for the consideration that they are "exceptional human beings."

Mm. I kind of like this. The idea that humans themselves and adventurers are innately something rather different. Like.. A human adventurer is like.. Human + Stepping stone ability. As a human crosses the threshhold between human and hero, something may set them apart. Like.. they get to pick an ability from the "Human acceptable" list of choices to set them above that of a normal human... and off they go.

You could go for a versatility advantage: humans have a way broader canon of spell, because they have less resentment to experiment and try something new. They also can use every weapon and combat technique, because they tend to favour effectiveness rather then tradition. At least in the long term; a new weapon or spell may be disapproved by a generation, and appraised by their descendants 30 or 40 years later. For elves or dwarves a quite short time.

There is always that. Versatility. Or special abilities that are only available for standard races. While customizable races would have strength that would stem from greater control of stats.. The standard races maybe just plain strong via some exclusive abilities. Mm. I need to think on it. Thanks!

What makes them stand above an imagined baseline "Blank sheet" race?

I have a hard time answering your question. Either we ARE the 'baseline', or you have to define the baseline for us.

Take a hive-mind drone as our baseline. Humans have the following:

• Learning - Humans can learn from experiences other humans communicate
• Independent action - individual humans can take full actions without a queen
• No physical specialization - all humans have the same basic physical abilities (no extra-hard shell or natural weaponry for solders, etc.)

If we take an energy being as our baseline, we might get the following:

• Corporeal - humans can easily make changes to the physical world
• Ephemeral - humans wear out and die over time, no matter how much energy is available to them.
• Not telepathic - humans must communicate through complex vocal noises instead of direct mind-to-mind communication

It's usually easiest to just assume humans are 'normal' based on whatever the game defines as normal, and go from there. But if you want to define a 'blank sheet', you've got to give us more detail as to what the system is.

A helpful set of examples. You appear to really understand what I'm going for.
As for game system details.. I'm.. ugh.. @.@ .... I dunno.. I guess I'm going to have to at some point, right? I'd planned to do so for the players in my game.. when I start a PBP game.(At some point..)(A first time for this. Malekith wants me to. <:3)

**Hey guys. Heres how the game works. (napkin notes handed out to everyone.) Yeah.. that napkin kind of talks about fireballs. You'll get it. Oh wait. Thats the wrong one. Theres the fireball napkin.**

But...... I guess so long as we've all agree'd that no matter how awesome my game is, I could NEVER make money off of it.. the only thing left is the idea of somebody stealing it and it not being "mine" anymore.. But really? I shouldn't care so much.

I also kinda wanted to do it in a wiki style format. But..

I guess.... Possibly.. maybe.. I can make a big post with all my rules so far on my game. But it'll take some more refining and work on my part before I'd feel ready for that. I'm still writing magical branch descriptions throughout the day.

Thanks everyone.

[MarbitChow]

As for game system details.. I'm.. ugh.. @.@ .... I dunno.. I guess I'm going to have to at some point, right?

We don't need examples of the game rules, we'd just need to know how you handle character creation. For example, if we assume humans are average, and you use stats (strength, intelligence, dexterity, stamina, etc.) on a scale of 1-100, where 50 is average, humans start out with all 50s as a base; on a 1-5 scale, humans get 3s.

If, on the other hand, you don't have stats at all, and instead each 'power' is an ability, then it helps to know what is defined.

For example:

Human Character:

Binocular Vision (5 pts)
4 Limbs (5 pts each)
2 Manipulators (15 pts each) ["hands"]
Poor sense of smell (-5 pts)
Average hearing (0 pts)
Speech (50 pts)
Literate (100 pts)
Social (20 pts) ["Other humans will help by default"]
Omnivore (20 pts)

Spider-Race Character:

Faceted Vision (15pts)
8 Limbs (5 pts each)
Venom (10 pts)
Weave Web (10 pts)
Exoskeleton (10 pts)
Carnivore (10 pts)
Frightening (-30 pts)
Literate (100 pts)
Speech (50 pts)

GURPS uses a great point-based system to purchase and balance everything, and my examples above borrow heavily from the spirit of GURPS.
Writing your own system can certainly be fun, but you might also not want to have to reinvent the wheel.

[MuthSera]

As for game system details.. I'm.. ugh.. @.@ .... I dunno.. I guess I'm going to have to at some point, right?

We don't need examples of the game rules, we'd just need to know how you handle character creation. For example, if we assume humans are average, and you use stats (strength, intelligence, dexterity, stamina, etc.) on a scale of 1-100, where 50 is average, humans start out with all 50s as a base; on a 1-5 scale, humans get 3s.

If, on the other hand, you don't have stats at all, and instead each 'power' is an ability, then it helps to know what is defined.

For example:

Human Character:

Binocular Vision (5 pts)
4 Limbs (5 pts each)
2 Manipulators (15 pts each) ["hands"]
Poor sense of smell (-5 pts)
Average hearing (0 pts)
Speech (50 pts)
Literate (100 pts)
Social (20 pts) ["Other humans will help by default"]
Omnivore (20 pts)

Spider-Race Character:

Faceted Vision (15pts)
8 Limbs (5 pts each)
Venom (10 pts)
Weave Web (10 pts)
Exoskeleton (10 pts)
Carnivore (10 pts)
Frightening (-30 pts)
Literate (100 pts)
Speech (50 pts)

GURPS uses a great point-based system to purchase and balance everything, and my examples above borrow heavily from the spirit of GURPS.
Writing your own system can certainly be fun, but you might also not want to have to reinvent the wheel.

These examples tug me back and forth on what I had previously said.
I want the advantages and disadvantages to circulate arround combat importance and whatnot.
These are good examples of what could be the best of both worlds.
I was told my stuff was a little bit like GURPS by my balance gal.. but I've never touched the stuff.
Or was it shadowrun that she said? Never played either...

But yeah. This is kinda what I wanna do. The humans example was great. I guess I'd be better off working towards a point buy with a posative number in mind. Many of it's abilities had played out in my head rather universally. Reading. Speaking. 2 arms.. all seemed rather fluffish(But not to be overlooked)..part of me digs it.. Part of me wants to avoid that.. and stick with abilities more along the lines of
"Racial spell ability: [Mystisism] {Life attunement}" (When an imbuement begins or ends on you, you regain X HP.)
"Racial resistance +2[Fire]"(Like DR 2 vs fire.)
"Racial spell mastery: [Charm]" (The ability to cast spells out of the Charm Branch using physical effort rather than mental effort.)
"Shoop Da Whoop" (Enchantment: Sacrifice to deal X dammage to target player or creature where X is the number of "chargin ma laser" counters on Shoop da whoop) OH WHOOPS WRONG GENRE.
.. stuff like that.

But in the end I need to be able to take enough away from the baseline race to be able to make these feasible.. So the baseline race must have something worthy of taking away.
Ugh..
Or.. re-invent level adjustment. Somehow. Make it work.

...... Something just occured to me that might work. I need to write this down.

Laters! ;D

[MuthSera]

Mm. I got my own wiki going. So far I've put down everything I have for magic on the wiki.
Taking a step back and glancing at it, it's somewhat impressive. At least magic is. D:
It's unfinished.. I've got ALOT of work to do.. but.. Umm. @.o

*long, very drawn out momment of reflection and self analytical processing before continuing..*

If you're interested in taking a glance at what I have, send me a PM. I'm not likely to tell you no.. but I don't wanna post it openly, for reasons I can't quite quantify.

Also. Malekith. Stop being on vacation. Or wherever you are.
Yar.

[Itzal]

But in the end I need to be able to take enough away from the baseline race to be able to make these feasible.. So the baseline race must have something worthy of taking away.

theres one problem with that... a baseline race is perfectly balanced specifically because it has no bonuses or subtractions, If you take something away from a baseline race it is no longer baseline.

my suggestion, with that in mind, is to just make humans null. No bonuses or subtractions.

[MuthSera]

But in the end I need to be able to take enough away from the baseline race to be able to make these feasible.. So the baseline race must have something worthy of taking away.

theres one problem with that... a baseline race is perfectly balanced specifically because it has no bonuses or subtractions, If you take something away from a baseline race it is no longer baseline.

my suggestion, with that in mind, is to just make humans null. No bonuses or subtractions.

I understand this. I'm simply having difficulty imagining how a creature like a DRAGON for instance(Massively strong.. often awesome spellcasters to boot.) could be made without simply saying that it's overall more powerful than a human. In fact? It'll kill hundreds of them.

Yet, for the most part, I'm just afraid that without giving the basic race something advantageous to work with from the start, there won't be enough to take away from them in the first place to make any cool races on the other side of things. Perhaps........ Level adjustment would be okay when coupled with my system.. also it'd be prudent to maybe make level adjustment acrue more slowly?

Anyways. Care to take a glance at what I have on the wiki?

[Gerwulf]

I understand this. I'm simply having difficulty imagining how a creature like a DRAGON for instance(Massively strong.. often awesome spellcasters to boot.) could be made without simply saying that it's overall more powerful than a human. In fact? It'll kill hundreds of them.

The Dragon Race would have abilities like: Spell affinity; Massive Strength; Flight; Natural Armor; Breath Weapon
And dissadvantages like: Slow Metabolism (takes longer to heal/healing magic less effective); Massive size (reduced dex); solitary (will fight other sentient creatures to the death-even its own kind/takes penalties when accompanied); Dispised (Other Sentient races will attack it on sight, or gather a mob and attack it later)

If you feel that you need to nerf it even more you could scale the abilities. Massive Strength adds 1 to str at level 1-2 +2 str at level 3-4. Natural Armor kicks in at level 5 etc.

[Unclever title]

I understand this. I'm simply having difficulty imagining how a creature like a DRAGON for instance(Massively strong.. often awesome spellcasters to boot.) could be made without simply saying that it's overall more powerful than a human. In fact? It'll kill hundreds of them.

The Dragon Race would have abilities like: Spell affinity; Massive Strength; Flight; Natural Armor; Breath Weapon
And dissadvantages like: Slow Metabolism (takes longer to heal/healing magic less effective); Massive size (reduced dex); solitary (will fight other sentient creatures to the death-even its own kind/takes penalties when accompanied); Dispised (Other Sentient races will attack it on sight, or gather a mob and attack it later)

If you feel that you need to nerf it even more you could scale the abilities. Massive Strength adds 1 to str at level 1-2 +2 str at level 3-4. Natural Armor kicks in at level 5 etc.

Alternatively, I was thinking that a character of a dragon-like race may not start out at adulthood like a human character probably would considering dragon's are pretty darn lethal early in life. This would mean that a recently hatched dragon would likely not start off with bonuses due to size but would grow in time (or perhaps with level so basically scaled levels), also just popped into my head, starting off with a charisma bonus for being a cute widdle fire-breathing baby.

[MuthSera]

I understand this. I'm simply having difficulty imagining how a creature like a DRAGON for instance(Massively strong.. often awesome spellcasters to boot.) could be made without simply saying that it's overall more powerful than a human. In fact? It'll kill hundreds of them.

The Dragon Race would have abilities like: Spell affinity; Massive Strength; Flight; Natural Armor; Breath Weapon
And dissadvantages like: Slow Metabolism (takes longer to heal/healing magic less effective); Massive size (reduced dex); solitary (will fight other sentient creatures to the death-even its own kind/takes penalties when accompanied); Dispised (Other Sentient races will attack it on sight, or gather a mob and attack it later)

If you feel that you need to nerf it even more you could scale the abilities. Massive Strength adds 1 to str at level 1-2 +2 str at level 3-4. Natural Armor kicks in at level 5 etc.

Alot of these stats simply do not exist in my game. It's not based on 3.5 at all, (Or D&D at all, really..) Except for general fantasy setting. (Typical stuff. Fairies. Goblins. Trolls. Orcs. Goblins.) I will say that at this very momment, as far as combat is concerned, my rules gal and I test it using 3.5's rules on combat and action types.. but thats it. The only real variation on that is something I call "dog fighting" that behaves like a localized bubble of simultanious combat. I haven't written the rules on that. ;[

Aside from that, equivilants can be made to massive strength and natural armor. I'd say, "High affinity for Battle Power". But without an explaination of what affinities and battle power are, I'm not making much sense. <:3 Battle power is on the wiki, but I haven't written anything for affinities yet. They're a means of aquiring increased stats when you level up. I suppose, therefor, it'd be easier for a dragon to get stronger in combat.

I understand this. I'm simply having difficulty imagining how a creature like a DRAGON for instance(Massively strong.. often awesome spellcasters to boot.) could be made without simply saying that it's overall more powerful than a human. In fact? It'll kill hundreds of them.

The Dragon Race would have abilities like: Spell affinity; Massive Strength; Flight; Natural Armor; Breath Weapon
And dissadvantages like: Slow Metabolism (takes longer to heal/healing magic less effective); Massive size (reduced dex); solitary (will fight other sentient creatures to the death-even its own kind/takes penalties when accompanied); Dispised (Other Sentient races will attack it on sight, or gather a mob and attack it later)

If you feel that you need to nerf it even more you could scale the abilities. Massive Strength adds 1 to str at level 1-2 +2 str at level 3-4. Natural Armor kicks in at level 5 etc.

Alternatively, I was thinking that a character of a dragon-like race may not start out at adulthood like a human character probably would considering dragon's are pretty darn lethal early in life. This would mean that a recently hatched dragon would likely not start off with bonuses due to size but would grow in time (or perhaps with level so basically scaled levels), also just popped into my head, starting off with a charisma bonus for being a cute widdle fire-breathing baby.

Perhaps, yes, the easiest thing to consider is that dragons are powerful when they're adults. ;p

But My general conclusion is turning out to be.. "Level adjustment + point buy" system. Every level you sacrifice to make your creature will be another +X points that can be spent to make the race. (Dammit.. my reply window is going nuts.)

[jioan]

Dragons are supposed to be more powerful than humans and most other races. If you want to have a customizeable race system than you could make humans your baseline and then add and take away from there. The problem being that you won't get dragons because you'll be way over zero. Maybe when you start a campaign you allow your players to make a race that is a positive amount of points.

Another choice is to simply not allow things that don't add up to zero. This would mean you can't play as anything superior to a human. So you'd end up with races that have great strengths and great weaknesses a lot. This works out if the system is well balance. If it's not than you get people who are extremely powerful or extremely weak.

I would create several races that add up to zero as baseline races to make it easier on the player.(Not just humans) For instance, getting from human to dragon is complicated but getting from dragonborn to dragon is fairy simple.

[Unclever title]

For instance, getting from human to dragon is complicated but getting from dragonborn to dragon is fairy simple.

Pun intended? Even if not it's still funny. Of course I guess that would be hard to get from misspelling...