Book 2 - Text Updates 046

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby CelebrenIthil » Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:52 pm

John Campbell wrote:
No one in particular wrote:FACT: From the flash mob, we know that flashing is a form of shockamancy.
FACT: From van de graff and other various lightning bolts, we know the 'Hammer can use shockamancy.
CONCLUSION: At some point in the future, we will see a totally naked Stanely charging in to battle.

There's your fan "service"!

STANLEY (holding up the Arkenhammer): "This is not the 'Hammer."


Most excellent one! :lol:
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Smoker » Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:42 am

So Wanda performs basically another disarm move on Jack, yet afterwards she banters with him like they are old school friends.

Just what the hell does Wanda think of Jack? She let him rot in the link for how many turns, she is alternately insulted and amused by him, and wouldn't mind making her one of her own little toys - even at the risk of him losing his caster special.

How's this? She loves him.

Like Jillian and Vinnie allowed themselves to love each other when Ansom was thought (perma-)croaked, so too is Wanda allowing herself to re-evaluate her longest surviving companion, now that it seems that Jillian has made her choice for Ansom.

Wanda has rank far beyond Jack - not only is she the "Officer" of the casters, she is also surrounded by units who are blindly loyal to her, even moreso than to their Ruler. Allowing Jack to question her Fate, ridicule her tragic love-life and make references to her greatest betrayal... it goes beyond her just recognising the man is damn handy to have around. I mean, she plays word games with him...

It might just be a comfortable friendship with a long time rival, but is Wanda capable of anything that is not either Lust or Greed?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Raza » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:06 am

Smoker wrote:So Wanda performs basically another disarm move on Jack, yet afterwards she banters with him like they are old school friends.

Just what the hell does Wanda think of Jack? She let him rot in the link for how many turns, she is alternately insulted and amused by him, and wouldn't mind making her one of her own little toys - even at the risk of him losing his caster special.

How's this? She loves him.

Like Jillian and Vinnie allowed themselves to love each other when Ansom was thought (perma-)croaked, so too is Wanda allowing herself to re-evaluate her longest surviving companion, now that it seems that Jillian has made her choice for Ansom.

Wanda has rank far beyond Jack - not only is she the "Officer" of the casters, she is also surrounded by units who are blindly loyal to her, even moreso than to their Ruler. Allowing Jack to question her Fate, ridicule her tragic love-life and make references to her greatest betrayal... it goes beyond her just recognising the man is damn handy to have around. I mean, she plays word games with him...


Interesting idea. I agree with some of the signs you bring up, but my guess is that they're coincidence. Ranks in GK aren't simple hierarchy, and there just isn't a lot you can do with authority against someone who delivers true and witty points, without losing a lot of face.

Smoker wrote:It might just be a comfortable friendship with a long time rival, but is Wanda capable of anything that is not either Lust or Greed?

I'm not sure I've seen Wanda display lust yet. (Which honestly only adds to her psycho image, considering we have seen her come on to someone) Her intimate interests are definitely (and explicitly) more romantic in nature.

Greed... also misses the mark somewhat, I think. Only things that ever got her excited where Jillian and fulfilling her Fate - I'm not sure she'd give a crap for magic items otherwise. Even powerlust doesn't quite cover it - if I'd had those pliers, I'd have been putting a priority on collecting casters and other rare unit types, but she's been happy to blow it all to smithereens on the path to her vague arkentool destiny.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Infidel » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:05 am

We will not leave this room to fight, because it could serve as our means of escape.


This sentence is tripping me up. It seems to refer to leaving by portal "to fight" and staying "to escape" which seems backwards. Shouldn't it be, "We will remain in this room to fight, because it could serve as our means of escape."?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby No one in particular » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:23 am

Infidel wrote:This sentence is tripping me up. It seems to refer to leaving by portal "to fight" and staying "to escape" which seems backwards. Shouldn't it be, "We will remain in this room to fight, because it could serve as our means of escape."?

Wanda means that they're not going to leave the room to fight Jetstone. Remember that sea of infantry Tramennis was in front of in the last comic update? By staying in the Portal Room, they can escape through the portal if it looks like things are about o head south.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Beeskee » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:27 am

I think she realizes that Jack is just messing with her, and she's messing with him right back. When he did this earlier, she got pissed off and raised the pliers threateningly at him, which just made him more amused. This time around, she trips him and jokes with him, and raises the pliers to punctuate a point. ("I didn't have these then")

Jack is on a very short list of folks who can mess around with Wanda, and not just because of the pliers. She's always been kinda "spooky and powerful and hot and OBEY ME!" - and Jack does have a point, whether or not Wanda realizes it or agrees with him. I think Wanda's true feelings about almost everything will always be mysterious. There's only a few exceptions, Jillian being a big one. These are the cracks in her armor, where we get to see a bit of the 'real' Wanda underneath the mask she presents to the world.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby atalex » Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:36 pm

So no one has any thoughts on what I thought was the most interesting thing about this update? Even more so than the Wanda/Jack banter? I'm talking about Wanda being so confident in the Loyalty imposed by the pliers that she will casually discuss abandoning her newly created (and completely replaceable) minions to their faces. Given all the speculation about Oss turning at some point, I find it odd that Wanda is now being so brazenly dismissive and contemptuous of the fates of her decrypted soldiers. It's foreshadowing for something but I can't see what just yet.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Beeskee » Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:50 pm

Ansom's woodsy elves were comfortable with the idea of him abandoning them in the forest hex, and those were natural allies, not even native units.

The text in this update says that Antium wouldn't object to such an action, just that he thought there were better ways to proceed.


Edit: I do think it may be foreshadowing something though, we've seen a number of newly-decrypted units being confused regarding their side. We didn't see this in Book 1, but we only really saw Ansom decrypted in detail, and he had been dead overnight.
Last edited by Beeskee on Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Jinren » Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:15 pm

atalex wrote:So no one has any thoughts on what I thought was the most interesting thing about this update? Even more so than the Wanda/Jack banter? I'm talking about Wanda being so confident in the Loyalty imposed by the pliers that she will casually discuss abandoning her newly created (and completely replaceable) minions to their faces. Given all the speculation about Oss turning at some point, I find it odd that Wanda is now being so brazenly dismissive and contemptuous of the fates of her decrypted soldiers. It's foreshadowing for something but I can't see what just yet.


Ossomer is having difficulty because of outside factors: conflicted emotions with the memory of his old Duty, his (unaltered) sense of honour, etc. Whereas Wanda is merely talking about matters of life and death.

Consider that Erfworld units are popped as professional soldiers complete with training, and conversely that Rulers can and possibly do employ disbanding as a form of discipline, population control, or for unusual reasons like Bea's. The self-preservation instinct definitely exists to a degree, but units are pretty much already forced to ignore it in the course of their regular duties and strategies involving massive senseless sacrifices are nothing new to them. I doubt the conversation would be more than mildly unsettling even to non-decrypted troops.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby atalex » Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:15 pm

Beeskee wrote:Ansom's woodsy elves were comfortable with the idea of him abandoning them in the forest hex, and those were natural allies, not even native units.

The text in this update says that Antium wouldn't object to such an action, just that he thought there were better ways to proceed.


True, but Ansom himself was extremely reluctant to abandon them and they had to reassure him that it was the right thing to do. I imagine that if he'd been openly talking about abandoning them because they were expendable while looking one in the eyes, the reaction might have been different. Given the speculation about whether a Decrypted can be turned at all, I think Wanda's utter callousness towards them all is interesting and may be a foreshadowing of some future development. As I said quite some time back, a Decrypted has no upkeep and thus cannot be blackmailed into service that way. If a Decrypted can also break his Loyalty to Wanda without being disbanded, such a being would be something truly unprecedented ... a free Erfworlder. Since I think that' the endgame for the entire series, I'm always looking for plot turns that get us there.:)
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Beeskee » Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:21 pm

We probably won't be getting there any time soon. :D

I imagine if natural allies have a problem with a side, they'd break alliance. I think regular units working for their home side would just deal with it, rationalizing it with their own personal beliefs as we've seen them do before. I don't know what turned or decrypted units would do if actually faced with that kind of situation. It may depend on the individual unit loyalty and the type of unit they are.

We haven't seen anyone with low loyalty being confronted with any truly unsound plans before. Decrypted Antium was okay with covering Wanda's escape if it came to that, though he thought it wasn't optimal.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Jinren » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:34 pm

atalex wrote:such a being would be something truly unprecedented ... a free Erfworlder.


Don't Barbarians have that one down fairly well already? Note that they also have bizarre and incomprehensible features like all taking their turn at once and having to physically interact with the world to farm, mine or hunt.

It also presents an endgame scenario that doesn't involve killing everyone, which must improve its standing with the Hippiemancers.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Smoker » Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:51 pm

Raza wrote:I'm not sure I've seen Wanda display lust yet. (Which honestly only adds to her psycho image, considering we have seen her come on to someone) Her intimate interests are definitely (and explicitly) more romantic in nature.

Greed... also misses the mark somewhat, I think. Only things that ever got her excited where Jillian and fulfilling her Fate - I'm not sure she'd give a crap for magic items otherwise. Even powerlust doesn't quite cover it - if I'd had those pliers, I'd have been putting a priority on collecting casters and other rare unit types, but she's been happy to blow it all to smithereens on the path to her vague arkentool destiny.


I did struggle over the words Lust and Greed when I wrote that, so maybe they are not the best words for Wanda, but what I'm getting at is that her relationship with Jillian was based on power and control. We never really saw her being sweet and lovie-dovie to Jillian, except to give her extra rations for breakfast. So I figure her desire for Jillian was based more on primal urges, than some romantic idea of "Love"...

As for Greed, it seems to me that she will waste anything and everything to complete her Predictamancy, which just so happens to be awesome. Now she claims she is loyal to fate, but that doesn't mean she's telling the truth. If her Prediction was "You will croak at the hands of a level one Marbit." Do you think she'd be arranging for that to happen, like she tried to with Stanley? I dont think so. In fact, I think she's using the whole fate thing as a very convenient way to be in control. Its very backwards, I know, but it seems to me that Wanda's real goal is attaining power and control, and her justification is fate.

Anyway, hopefully you can see where I'm getting at on that one. *shrug*
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby No one in particular » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:12 pm

I dunno, I could actually see Wanda totally embracing that prediction, by adopting an almost Sylvia-like attitude and throwing herself into combat and situations where she'd normally be cautious, but feels totally safe since hey! There's no marbits here, ergo she's not gonna croak. She might not seek out Marbits with quite the same zeal as she did a 'Tool, but she'd accept it all the same.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Oberon » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:14 pm

Jinren wrote:Don't Barbarians have that one [being free] down fairly well already? Note that they also have bizarre and incomprehensible features like all taking their turn at once and having to physically interact with the world to farm, mine or hunt.
Not so incomprehensible. Units who belong to the various sides can also farm, mine, or hunt, to lower their upkeep. For examples, see Jillian "laying in provisions" by killing a fish called Wanda, and the TV crew hunting sheep. The same behavior in barbarians isn't incomprehensible, it's necessary for their survival, since unless they have a sponsor they have to provide their own upkeep somehow.

Taking their turn all at the same time, now that is odd for Erfworlers (refer to Stanlie's Princess Bride-like "Inconcievable!" response to Parson telling him about Stupidworld conducting war in real time). But if one assumes that barbarian units are fairly rare and thus seldom interact, this isn't terribly odd either by reason of being very rarely witnessed.
Smoker wrote:As for Greed, it seems to me that [Wanda] will waste anything and everything to complete her Predictamancy, which just so happens to be awesome. Now she claims she is loyal to fate, but that doesn't mean she's telling the truth. If her Prediction was "You will croak at the hands of a level one Marbit." Do you think she'd be arranging for that to happen, like she tried to with Stanley? I dont think so. In fact, I think she's using the whole fate thing as a very convenient way to be in control. Its very backwards, I know, but it seems to me that Wanda's real goal is attaining power and control, and her justification is fate.

Anyway, hopefully you can see where I'm getting at on that one. *shrug*
I thought that both Wanda and Stanley wanted to bring all of the arkentools together? And that their driving reason was that they thought that this is what the Titans wanted them to do? I don't think I've seen the goal of "rule over all of Erfworld" mixed in or mixed up with that goal, aside from being a natural consequence of their current territorial expansion. An expansion which was forced upon them by the aggressions of the RCC and RCCII.

I thought that Stanley picked this goal up from Wanda, but I could have that backwards. Wanda, at the very least, supported and enabled Stanley in his quest to collect all of the arkentools. Oddly, Wanda says that Charlie is the last person they would war against, as he is an attuned 'tool owner. Which makes collecting them all somewhat of a contradictory goal to that philosophical position with regards to warring on Charlie.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Smoker » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:59 pm

I think that Wanda encouraged Stanley to collect all the 'tools because she knew that she would attune to one of them.

Now that she has it, is there more motivation for her to find the others? What I mean is, was that part of the Prediction too? Unsure.

And when I say she wants control, I dont mean all of Erfworld (although that perhaps is still a possibility) I just mean that Wanda's personality has always been about control, and the 'pliers are a very controlling device. Using the 'pliers satisfies her on an emotional level, more than on a "Oh look what a lovely obedient instrument of fate I am!" level.

Oberon wrote:Oddly, Wanda says that Charlie is the last person they would war against, as he is an attuned 'tool owner. Which makes collecting them all somewhat of a contradictory goal to that philosophical position with regards to warring on Charlie.


Exactly. Unless there's more predictions that we dont know about, it seems to me (and of course YMMV) that Wanda is only riding the Fate train when its going in her direction. Going head to head against Charlie is something not even Wanda wants to do.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Sixty » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:15 am

Interestingly enough, Parson played a role in the creation of Toolism beyond the whole winning the battle of GK. Ansom got the idea that Tools were higher than Royalty from Parson when he was talking smack and was very vocal about it. Wanda has always been following the Fate train, but I don't think she said that Tools were superior than Kings and Queens, it was noted during the summer updates that Wanda said little to nothing when they were trying to make alliances and that it was mostly Ansom who did the talking.

Stanley always wanted all the Arkentools (cause he was being manipulated by Wanda who wanted one for herself) and if asked would follow the Toolist line, but didn't seem to be preaching the message, just trying to take by force. Ironically one of the people most responsible for Toolism is someone who doesn't truly believe it.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Zeku » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:05 am

The real truth is that Wanda is not a developed character.

I'm sure the author has a plan for her at some point, and maybe he even hears her inner dialogue, but that's not the same as her having characteristics we can see.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Jinren » Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:44 am

Oberon wrote:Not so incomprehensible.
...


By "bizarre and incomprehensible" I meant "perfectly logical as long as you come from Stupidworld" (I forgot that units attached to a Side had been shown doing something for themselves).

Anyway, the Magic Kingdom provides one example of a lot of barbarians together in one place. There are enough of them that they've even bothered to develop an economic system separate from Schmuckers. The pace of life there doesn't seem to be very fast most days, so up until current plot! the possibility that it represents an island of real-time hasn't really been addressed, but I think this is one reason why it's so interesting.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:13 am

atalex wrote:As I said quite some time back, a Decrypted has no upkeep and thus cannot be blackmailed into service that way. If a Decrypted can also break his Loyalty to Wanda without being disbanded, such a being would be something truly unprecedented ... a free Erfworlder. Since I think that' the endgame for the entire series, I'm always looking for plot turns that get us there.:)


And since the decrypted with a high chance of doing just that is meatheaded-despised-by-everyone Ossomer, I heartily approve! You show 'em, son guy!

Zeku wrote:The real truth is that Wanda is not a developed character.

I'm sure the author has a plan for her at some point, and maybe he even hears her inner dialogue, but that's not the same as her having characteristics we can see.


Oh I see what you did there. I'm just about ready to fire up the popcorn maker. Might've been better had you picked another character as a target though. One that starts with a T and ends with annoying ;)
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