Book 2 - Text Updates 046

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Smoker » Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:00 am

Zeku wrote:The real truth is that Wanda is not a developed character.

I'm sure the author has a plan for her at some point, and maybe he even hears her inner dialogue, but that's not the same as her having characteristics we can see.


Do you mean that as a bad thing? I like Wanda's mystery thing that she's got going on. If we really knew what was going on in her twisted little mind, we wouldn't be able to speculate on her starting a new side (for example.)

Now these examples may not fit for given values of "Developed", but I feel its the same thing with Caesar and Don - although they are not nearly as much of a mystery as Wanda, we still dont really know what their motivations are, and that makes them fun.

Also, remember that lovely, constructive, adult discussion we had about the motivations of that character who starts with T and ends in fabulous?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Oberon » Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:37 am

Jinren wrote:
Oberon wrote:Not so incomprehensible.
...
By "bizarre and incomprehensible" I meant "perfectly logical as long as you come from Stupidworld" (I forgot that units attached to a Side had been shown doing something for themselves).
I took it the way you intended. I just pointed out that it's not really a bizarre and incomprehensible behavior, from the POV of Erfworlders.
Jinren wrote:Anyway, the Magic Kingdom provides one example of a lot of barbarians together in one place. There are enough of them that they've even bothered to develop an economic system separate from Schmuckers. The pace of life there doesn't seem to be very fast most days, so up until current plot! the possibility that it represents an island of real-time hasn't really been addressed, but I think this is one reason why it's so interesting.
Whether the MK is "an island of real time" or not is not relevant to what we've seen there. Remember that stepping through a portal can be done off-turn, and that the MK is either a single hex (as implied by the shape, although a regular cluster of hexes does have the same shape), or at the least we've never been shown that there are any hex boundaries within the MK. And since movement within a hex can be done off-turn, there is nothing unusual about different barbarians being able to move within the MK at the same time as each other or the casters visiting from a specific side.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby No one in particular » Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:22 am

Hey! I like Tannoying and Tfabulous! They are perfectly well realized characters, and if we could just get more screen time to explore them and their dynamic we would understand them so much better. As it is with the random face-in-the-crowd scenes, it's just so hard to know what makes them tick, but it's there!

I'm still so excited that we got to see them so closely back on page 58. Here, I'll point them out for you...
Spoiler: show
Image


Gah. So awesome. I can't wait to find out more about them!
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby splexis » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:44 pm

Smoker wrote:I did struggle over the words Lust and Greed when I wrote that, so maybe they are not the best words for Wanda, but what I'm getting at is that her relationship with Jillian was based on power and control. We never really saw her being sweet and lovie-dovie to Jillian, except to give her extra rations for breakfast. So I figure her desire for Jillian was based more on primal urges, than some romantic idea of "Love"...


The BDSM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bdsm) world is a common enough mode of intimate human relation. Wanda's relationship with Jillian, including her stronger feelings and attachments, seemed to be pretty clearly framed within that modality. Just because Smoker doesn't pursue or experience loving relationships in terms of power and control, doesn't mean other people do not. Some folks find the "sweet and lovie-dovie" to be particularly non-rewarding in their romantic lives.

Just sayin' . . .
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Housellama » Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:29 pm

splexis wrote:
Smoker wrote:I did struggle over the words Lust and Greed when I wrote that, so maybe they are not the best words for Wanda, but what I'm getting at is that her relationship with Jillian was based on power and control. We never really saw her being sweet and lovie-dovie to Jillian, except to give her extra rations for breakfast. So I figure her desire for Jillian was based more on primal urges, than some romantic idea of "Love"...


The BDSM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bdsm) world is a common enough mode of intimate human relation. Wanda's relationship with Jillian, including her stronger feelings and attachments, seemed to be pretty clearly framed within that modality. Just because Smoker doesn't pursue or experience loving relationships in terms of power and control, doesn't mean other people do not. Some folks find the "sweet and lovie-dovie" to be particularly non-rewarding in their romantic lives.

Just sayin' . . .


On the contrary! I saw a LOT of romance in the extended dungeon scene between W&J. In a BDSM relationship, "sweet and lovie-dovie" looks a lot different from other relationships. I speak from a good bit of firsthand experience. Aftercare can be incredibly romantic. During the 'scene', Wanda was nothing but hard and cold with Jillian. She treated her like a prisoner, beat the boop out of her, humiliated her, dehumanized her and generally made her life miserable. (See here) Afterwards, she switched to kind and companionable. She gave Jillian her name back, allowed Jillian to use Wanda's name again, allowed them to speak as equals again. (here) Then, when dawn hit and the second set of trauma hit, the emotional wounds, she became emotionally supportive, calling her dearest, telling her that she understood, allowing her to have her rations, etc, (here). Finally, when she was dropping Jillian off, Wanda held her protectively in her lap, holding her close with an arm around her, and Gillian was relaxed, with her eyes closed as if asleep. (here) All of these show me that there is significant signs of romance within the relationship. There is both lust AND love within this relationship, and passion runs high on both sides and with both parties
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Housellama » Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:31 pm

splexis wrote:
Housellama wrote:The Scottish did charge into battle with nothing but weapons and a thin coating of woad.


Woad body paint is perhaps not supported in the historical documentation: http://cyberpict.net/sgathan/essays/woad.htm.


Fair cop, guv.

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Dr Pepper » Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:55 pm

splexis wrote:
Smoker wrote:I did struggle over the words Lust and Greed when I wrote that, so maybe they are not the best words for Wanda, but what I'm getting at is that her relationship with Jillian was based on power and control. We never really saw her being sweet and lovie-dovie to Jillian, except to give her extra rations for breakfast. So I figure her desire for Jillian was based more on primal urges, than some romantic idea of "Love"...


The BDSM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bdsm) world is a common enough mode of intimate human relation. Wanda's relationship with Jillian, including her stronger feelings and attachments, seemed to be pretty clearly framed within that modality. Just because Smoker doesn't pursue or experience loving relationships in terms of power and control, doesn't mean other people do not. Some folks find the "sweet and lovie-dovie" to be particularly non-rewarding in their romantic lives.

Just sayin' . . .



Except that way back when Jillian was being released (under a compulsion spell) She and Wanda did have a big, tender hug.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Dr Pepper » Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:11 pm

Housellama wrote:
In a BDSM relationship, "sweet and lovie-dovie" looks a lot different from other relationships. I speak from a good bit of firsthand experience. Aftercare can be incredibly romantic.


Ok, you were quicker than me and provided more detail. I just wanted to point out that neither Blandco nor Oberon has ever acted romantic or suppotive towards someone they had previously savaged here.
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Game, like the die rolls don't matter
Filk, like everyone is tone deaf anyway

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Catalyst » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:17 am

Dr Pepper wrote:
Housellama wrote:
In a BDSM relationship, "sweet and lovie-dovie" looks a lot different from other relationships. I speak from a good bit of firsthand experience. Aftercare can be incredibly romantic.


Ok, you were quicker than me and provided more detail. I just wanted to point out that neither Blandco nor Oberon has ever acted romantic or suppotive towards someone they had previously savaged here.


By savaged do you mean... ravaged?

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:16 am

Dr Pepper wrote:Ok, you were quicker than me and provided more detail. I just wanted to point out that neither Blandco nor Oberon has ever acted romantic or suppotive towards someone they had previously savaged here.


Well done Dr Pepper, I don't know which part of that to laugh at more :lol: I think I'll settle on laughing at the idea of me savaging anyone.

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Smoker » Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:36 am

splexis wrote:Just because Smoker doesn't pursue or experience loving relationships in terms of power and control...

Says who? ;)

Housellama wrote:On the contrary! I saw a LOT of romance in the extended dungeon scene between W&J. [good examples]

We see mostly Jillian being affectionate to Wanda, and only briefly the other way around. Yes they talk normally, and Wanda lets Jillian have the rations that she didn't have time to eat herself anyway, but is that enough to qualify as love?

Remember also that Jillian seems to have been operating under magical suggestions for quite some time, and Jillian herself explains how that was "too far". Now I'm no prude (I mean, I've had my share of peanut butter) but I hesitate to validate "genuine" love in circumstances where one party is at least partially unwilling.

I'm reminded of the scene where Jillian almost enters Ansom's tent, but then walks off. Is this the suggestion spell working on her? Can someone (Wanda) experience genuine love for another person/unit, and at the same time deliberately prevent them from choosing the partner they love most of all? Isn't the old saying "if you love them, let them go?"

On a more mercenary note: Wanda uses Jillian to gain intel on Ansom's battle plan. She dominates/tortures and mind controls her in order to do this - since she is spending the juice anyway, why not get some sugar?

Of course, Wanda did refrain from killing Jillian with the tower defences, and she didn't attempt to croak her in the stand-off above Spacerock (which would have disbanded all the Faquan units there) so there is something there, perhaps love, perhaps just an unwillingness to break her favourite toy.

In any case, I'm happy to accept that some (most? all?) people recognise love in Wanda, even if I'm still looking at her sideways. The original question was is this what is happening in the Wanda/Jack banter? There's absolutely nothing to stop Wanda from putting Jack in a ring of decrypted, and having him kept silent in a corner until he is needed, but still she allows him liberties that seem a liiitle bit out of character for her.

Maybe they are just friends, maybe there's a bit of chemistry there, maybe Wanda is just chilling out... whichever it is, the banter is so awesome, I'll be happy regardless.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Oberon » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:01 am

Dr Pepper wrote:Ok, you were quicker than me and provided more detail. I just wanted to point out that neither Blandco nor Oberon has ever acted romantic or suppotive towards someone they had previously savaged here.
Awww sweetums, take that back! You hurt me.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Raza » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:23 pm

Smoker wrote:I did struggle over the words Lust and Greed when I wrote that, so maybe they are not the best words for Wanda, but what I'm getting at is that her relationship with Jillian was based on power and control. We never really saw her being sweet and lovie-dovie to Jillian, except to give her extra rations for breakfast. So I figure her desire for Jillian was based more on primal urges, than some romantic idea of "Love"...

As for Greed, it seems to me that she will waste anything and everything to complete her Predictamancy, which just so happens to be awesome. Now she claims she is loyal to fate, but that doesn't mean she's telling the truth. If her Prediction was "You will croak at the hands of a level one Marbit." Do you think she'd be arranging for that to happen, like she tried to with Stanley? I dont think so. In fact, I think she's using the whole fate thing as a very convenient way to be in control. Its very backwards, I know, but it seems to me that Wanda's real goal is attaining power and control, and her justification is fate.

Anyway, hopefully you can see where I'm getting at on that one. *shrug*

I getcha on the second. Motivation and rationale always maintain a bit of a chicken-egg relationship in human(ish) psychology.

On the first point... they seem to have a BDSM relationship sort of thing. Those're generally romantically motivated IRL, even if they make both sexual conservatives and equality-minded progressives cringe sometimes. I'm also not sure that love is any less primal a motive than the others we've brought up... not all that is love is necessarily wholesome.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Zeku » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:24 pm

I used to know someone back at my old work who confessed that she didn't like being forced to take the dominant role in these kinds of homogenous dalliances. In retrospect, I wished that I had listened more carefully to all of that, it was a gold mine of bizarre human experience.

I wonder if Wanda is in the same situation? The dominance went a little sour when she used magical aids in the last session with Jillian. The pliers, and their function, are an extension of that "even-less-natural-than-usual" subjugation. With compulsion no longer giving her a thrill, she's either looking for a genuine risk, or someone to dominate her in turn. Since she seems completely ambivalent to the ultimate dominator, Parson, that implies that she's cruising for a bruising: an enemy/lover that is awesome enough that dominating it will be satisfying.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby teratorn » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:16 pm

«Good girls get to eat sushi.»

How can someone say that isn't loving and affectionate?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby the_tick_rules » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:14 pm

maybe Jillian actually hates sushi :D
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Housellama » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:17 pm

Smoker wrote:
splexis wrote:Just because Smoker doesn't pursue or experience loving relationships in terms of power and control...

Says who? ;)

Housellama wrote:On the contrary! I saw a LOT of romance in the extended dungeon scene between W&J. [good examples]

We see mostly Jillian being affectionate to Wanda, and only briefly the other way around. Yes they talk normally, and Wanda lets Jillian have the rations that she didn't have time to eat herself anyway, but is that enough to qualify as love?


I see a lot of affection going both directions. To each their own.

Smoker wrote:Remember also that Jillian seems to have been operating under magical suggestions for quite some time, and Jillian herself explains how that was "too far". Now I'm no prude (I mean, I've had my share of peanut butter) but I hesitate to validate "genuine" love in circumstances where one party is at least partially unwilling.


Do we know that she's unwilling? Just because she's under a suggestion doesn't mean that she was unwilling to begin with. The existence of A does not necessarily prove the existence of not A. People in love still take aphrodisiacs. Hell, their romantic relationship appears to be based on D/s. A suggestion spell would be one of the ultimate ways to express that. It doesn't have to be sinister. It could be something to just make the sex hotter that Wanda chose to exploit...

Smoker wrote:I'm reminded of the scene where Jillian almost enters Ansom's tent, but then walks off. Is this the suggestion spell working on her? Can someone (Wanda) experience genuine love for another person/unit, and at the same time deliberately prevent them from choosing the partner they love most of all? Isn't the old saying "if you love them, let them go?"

On a more mercenary note: Wanda uses Jillian to gain intel on Ansom's battle plan. She dominates/tortures and mind controls her in order to do this - since she is spending the juice anyway, why not get some sugar?

Of course, Wanda did refrain from killing Jillian with the tower defences, and she didn't attempt to croak her in the stand-off above Spacerock (which would have disbanded all the Faquan units there) so there is something there, perhaps love, perhaps just an unwillingness to break her favourite toy.

In any case, I'm happy to accept that some (most? all?) people recognise love in Wanda, even if I'm still looking at her sideways. The original question was is this what is happening in the Wanda/Jack banter? There's absolutely nothing to stop Wanda from putting Jack in a ring of decrypted, and having him kept silent in a corner until he is needed, but still she allows him liberties that seem a liiitle bit out of character for her.

Maybe they are just friends, maybe there's a bit of chemistry there, maybe Wanda is just chilling out... whichever it is, the banter is so awesome, I'll be happy regardless.


Wanda has affection for Jack. More than that, Jack is one of the only people around that Wanda considers anything close to an equal. He's a Caster, he's someone from Faq, and he's someone that respects and understands (as much as any of them can) Parson. If she kills him, then A, Parson will be disappointed and furious, B, she would lose another connection to Jillian, and C, he's actually kind of neat to talk to.
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"The principle of strategy is to know ten thousand things by having one thing." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Earth, Go Rin No Sho
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Stryke » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:20 am

the_tick_rules wrote:maybe Jillian actually hates sushi :D


She does seem to hate most things
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby joosy » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:49 pm

Whoah!. Based on his eyes, I think I have found another member of the lost kingdom of Faq:
http://boisemugshots.com/mug/jordan-riley-adamson-1

http://boisemugshots.com/mug/jordan-riley-adamson
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Squishalot » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:05 am

Stryke wrote:
the_tick_rules wrote:maybe Jillian actually hates sushi :D


She does seem to hate most things

Perhaps, but she does like fish.
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