Book 2 - Text Updates 046

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Smoker » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:19 am

Housellama wrote:Do we know that she's unwilling? Just because she's under a suggestion doesn't mean that she was unwilling to begin with. The existence of A does not necessarily prove the existence of not A.

Knowing what we know of Suggestion spells, I'd say that Jillian had to have been partially willing to begin with, although the whole point of a suggestion spell is to persuade the target to do something that they would not normally be willing to do.

I form this opinion based on:
Maggies explanation of the controlling part of the SPW spell,
Wanda's explanation to Stanley and Parson of her control over Jillian,
Jillians thinkagram when she breaks free from the Suggestion,
Stanley's internal justification of Maggie's suggestion, and
Jillian's conversation with Wanda at the tower.

Housellama wrote:People in love still take aphrodisiacs.

This is a good point, aphrodisiacs enhance an already existing feeling, just like Suggestion spells. They do not, however, persuade the recipient to do things they would otherwise be unwilling to do - at least not directly. For example, say you are in a committed relationship, and your ex, for whom you still had some lingering romantic feelings for, were to slip you some aphrodisiacs with your dinner and put the moves on, you might well feel randy enough to rape a sofa, but one would hope you still had the mental fortitude to turn down this most generous offer, and run home to your actual partner.

What's happening in the comic, however, is Jillian is actually in love with Ansom. Wanda's suggestion is preventing her from running home to him. The free-thinking Jillian, although still partially attracted to Wanda, does not truly want to be with Wanda - she wants Ansom. We know this because she a) Broke the Suggestion and b) Chose Ansom over Wanda when she was above Spacerock.

I get what you're saying though. She might have willfully given up this choice by allowing herself to be mind controlled. The fact that she broke out of it was an unfortunate mishap that perhaps the Jillian of the past wished to have avoided. So does someone who willingly gives up their free will have the right to change their minds again? If so, what responsibility is it of the Dominator to ensure that this change of mind has not occured?

Housellama wrote:Hell, their romantic relationship appears to be based on D/s. A suggestion spell would be one of the ultimate ways to express that. It doesn't have to be sinister. It could be something to just make the sex hotter that Wanda chose to exploit...


Interesting. See to me, if Jillian wanted the suggestion, then it would be like Maggie jumping up from behind the sofa right now and Suggesting me to write something on the Forums. I would assume the spell would fail, or at least functionally so, because it made absolutely no difference to my actions. Therefore I would not break out of it, because I had no reason to do so.

I do understand that in the world there are people who do find the idea of mind-control erotic, and so I'm open to the idea of Jillian perhaps allowing the first suggestion to be placed on her, however the fact that she breaks out of it tells me that the way that Wanda used the Suggestion was beyond Jillians power to rationalise, and therefore consent to.

I dunno, its interesting isn't it? : "I hereby consent to you forcing/coercing me to do things that I do not consent to." where is the right and wrong of it?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby ryanroyce » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:59 am

Smoker wrote:I do understand that in the world there are people who do find the idea of mind-control erotic, and so I'm open to the idea of Jillian perhaps allowing the first suggestion to be placed on her, however the fact that she breaks out of it tells me that the way that Wanda used the Suggestion was beyond Jillians power to rationalise, and therefore consent to.

I'm curious as to why folks are assuming that Wanda has ever cast more than one Suggestion spell on Jillian... is there an update out there that I'm forgetting? I've long been under the impression that the Suggestion spell was in direct response to Jillian's "very easy way" proposal and not something done on a regular basis. Those scrolls are likely expensive, after all...

Maybe Wanda sensed, somehow, that she was losing Jillian to Ansom and, in response, tried to hold on too tightly?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby boegiboe » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:35 pm

Smoker wrote:I dunno, its interesting isn't it? : "I hereby consent to you forcing/coercing me to do things that I do not consent to." where is the right and wrong of it?


Wanda's fault for not having a safeword. ;)
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Housellama » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:28 pm

boegiboe wrote:
Smoker wrote:I dunno, its interesting isn't it? : "I hereby consent to you forcing/coercing me to do things that I do not consent to." where is the right and wrong of it?


Wanda's fault for not having a safeword. ;)


Do Jillian or Wanda strike you as the type to play safe or sane?

I mean REALLY...
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Housellama » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:28 pm

ryanroyce wrote:Maybe Wanda sensed, somehow, that she was losing Jillian to Ansom and, in response, tried to hold on too tightly?


This!
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

"The principle of strategy is to know ten thousand things by having one thing." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Earth, Go Rin No Sho
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Housellama » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:50 pm

Smoker wrote:What's happening in the comic, however, is Jillian is actually in love with Ansom. Wanda's suggestion is preventing her from running home to him. The free-thinking Jillian, although still partially attracted to Wanda, does not truly want to be with Wanda - she wants Ansom. We know this because she a) Broke the Suggestion and b) Chose Ansom over Wanda when she was above Spacerock.


I cannot disagree with most of this in strong enough terms. Jillian came to WANDA first outside Spacerock, and only captured Ansom after Wanda turned her down. Jillian might have broken the Suggestion spell, but that had more to do with the METHOD than the feelings. I don't think there's a more or a less. I think she's truly torn between the two of them, and only through her actions has Wanda made the choice for her.

Smoker wrote:Interesting. See to me, if Jillian wanted the suggestion, then it would be like Maggie jumping up from behind the sofa right now and Suggesting me to write something on the Forums. I would assume the spell would fail, or at least functionally so, because it made absolutely no difference to my actions. Therefore I would not break out of it, because I had no reason to do so.

I do understand that in the world there are people who do find the idea of mind-control erotic, and so I'm open to the idea of Jillian perhaps allowing the first suggestion to be placed on her, however the fact that she breaks out of it tells me that the way that Wanda used the Suggestion was beyond Jillians power to rationalise, and therefore consent to.

I dunno, its interesting isn't it? : "I hereby consent to you forcing/coercing me to do things that I do not consent to." where is the right and wrong of it?


Explain rape roleplay then. "I give you consent to force me to have sex with you. I will fight you and struggle and you will subdue me and force yourself upon me. And although I will fight and cry and do everything I can to stop you, and it will feel in most every way like an actual rape, I want it like that and I will enjoy the hell out of it." It happens, in safe, sane environments.
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

"The principle of strategy is to know ten thousand things by having one thing." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Earth, Go Rin No Sho
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:58 pm

Smoker wrote:I dunno, its interesting isn't it? : "I hereby consent to you forcing/coercing me to do things that I do not consent to." where is the right and wrong of it?


This sounds like a case for The S&M Judge!
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Dr Pepper » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:44 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Smoker wrote:I dunno, its interesting isn't it? : "I hereby consent to you forcing/coercing me to do things that I do not consent to." where is the right and wrong of it?


This sounds like a case for The S&M Judge!


Is that on Fox or Spike?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Atomic » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:00 pm

Dr Pepper wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Smoker wrote:I dunno, its interesting isn't it? : "I hereby consent to you forcing/coercing me to do things that I do not consent to." where is the right and wrong of it?


This sounds like a case for The S&M Judge!


Is that on Fox or Spike?

Disney.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby joosy » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:23 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Smoker wrote:I dunno, its interesting isn't it? : "I hereby consent to you forcing/coercing me to do things that I do not consent to." where is the right and wrong of it?


This sounds like a case for The S&M Judge!


What did the masochist say to the sadist? 'Hurt me!"

What did the sadist reply? "No!"


Masochists - the only ones who can hurt other people and still abide by the golden rule.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Smoker » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:00 am

Housellama wrote:Jillian came to WANDA first outside Spacerock, and only captured Ansom after Wanda turned her down.

That is very true, however Ansom made it abundantly clear that he also was not interested in joining Jillian. Thats when she made a choice between the two. It might just have been that it was too dangerous to capture Wanda, or it might have been who she loved more, or it might have been a choice between two she loved equally and which one hadn't pushed her too far with suggestions.. food for thought.

Also, she spoke to Wanda first, because she couldn't get to Ansom until after Kingword was cast.

Housellama wrote: Jillian might have broken the Suggestion spell, but that had more to do with the METHOD than the feelings. I don't think there's a more or a less. I think she's truly torn between the two of them, and only through her actions has Wanda made the choice for her.

I agree with the first part of that, no problem. Its clear that a Suggestion spell cannot make Jillian behave as she did without some foundation to build on. The second part, that Jillian loves them both equally, is an interesting theory.

Housellama wrote:Explain rape roleplay then. "I give you consent to force me to have sex with you. I will fight you and struggle and you will subdue me and force yourself upon me. And although I will fight and cry and do everything I can to stop you, and it will feel in most every way like an actual rape, I want it like that and I will enjoy the hell out of it." It happens, in safe, sane environments.


Exactly as you said, it happens in a safe and sane environment. Wanda using suggestions to gain military knowledge from Jillian and then sending her back into the enemy ranks is not safe, and using magic to make it happen isn't exactly sane. I could handle Jillian saying "cast a suggestion on me then treat me like a whore" but would she say "cast a suggestion on me and use me to gain intelligence on your enemy who I also love (then treat me like a whore)" ? Personally I dont think she would.

So Wanda abused the boundaries of the relationship, and so (swingly wildly back to the point) does that impact on our judgement on Wanda being genuinely in love with Jillian? Maybe Wanda is wildly in love, but she's a just total asshole?

PS I love the way these discussions cascade from a theory about Wanda having a crush on Jack, to rape fantasies. :)
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Oberon » Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:51 pm

Smoker wrote:She might have willfully given up this choice [to select between Ansom and Wanda, I think] by allowing herself to be mind controlled. The fact that she broke out of it was an unfortunate mishap that perhaps the Jillian of the past wished to have avoided. So does someone who willingly gives up their free will have the right to change their minds again? If so, what responsibility is it of the Dominator to ensure that this change of mind has not occured?
Are you suggesting (no pun intended) that Jillian wanted Wanda to pull out a scroll and cast a mind control spell on her? Wanda's words seem to indicate that this is an extreme to which their BDSM play has not gone before, when she asks about the easy way or the hard way, and then inflicts "the very hard way." The easy way and the hard way would seem to be the standard play options. I agree with ryanroyce, the very hard way which included the domination scroll seemed like a singular departure, to me.
Smoker wrote:
Housellama wrote:Hell, their romantic relationship appears to be based on D/s. A suggestion spell would be one of the ultimate ways to express that. It doesn't have to be sinister. It could be something to just make the sex hotter that Wanda chose to exploit...

Interesting. See to me, if Jillian wanted the suggestion, then it would be like Maggie jumping up from behind the sofa right now and Suggesting me to write something on the Forums. I would assume the spell would fail, or at least functionally so, because it made absolutely no difference to my actions. Therefore I would not break out of it, because I had no reason to do so.
There is an interesting scene in a Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser tale where Fafhrd is escaping from his frozen northlands barbarian life. He's just met with his lover and engaged in a bit of play, and afterwards scrubbed up barbarian style by hopping into a snow bank to "shower." Meanwhile, the spell being cast by his mother(? it's been a while since I've read this tale) and her coven of witches to freeze his manhood fails, since he was inflicting the same effect as their spell was supposed to inflict. But aside from reminding me of that story, I hardly believe that Jillian wanted, or even knew, that Wanda could or would cast the domination spell on her. When they met again on the ramparts of GK, Jillian herself told Wanda that she had crossed the line. Right before Wanda unleashed the tower defenses, but failed to kill Jillian with them. Wanda seems to be far more enthralled by Jillian than Jillian is by Wanda. Spells notwithstanding.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby Housellama » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:25 pm

Smoker wrote: Maybe Wanda is wildly in love, but she's a just total asshole?


This is more along the lines of what I was thinking. Wanda does love Jillian, but her side DOES have its back to the wall and are about to be utterly crushed. If a person has their back to the wall and believe they have no other choices, they WILL bite the hand that feeds them. And that's not even considering the effects of Duty and Loyalty, something that has yet to come up during this conversation. Love is one thing, but certain things are hard coded into Erfworlders. And the higher up you go, the greater effect they have.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 046

Postby the_tick_rules » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:47 pm

Or wanda likes destiny more than she likes jillian, that's the impression i got.
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