Book 2 – Page 59

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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby MonteCristo » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:06 pm

Sieggy wrote:However, both Trem & Slately are holding the idiot ball for not taking out the Archons now - not just for the bounty, but just so they're not looking at having to face them down the line.

The casters explained why they are not going after the archons when they explained why they are not escorting Slately out by air...
Between the Archons casting abilities, teamwork, leadership and Ossomer's warlord bonus, it would take A LOT arrows, ALOT of Juice and A LOT of time to wipe them out... and time is NOT on their side; GK is coming. Frankly, they do not have the time to take out a future the threat when they having an immediate threat knocking at their door. Also they might be able to take out some, but probably not enough to afford the cost of the heir; and that's assuming charlie is able to send them payment THIS turn as opposed to having to wait till next turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:04 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:This idea keeps popping up, of Wanda splitting. And every time it does, like a broken record, I remind people that Wanda had a perfect time to split into her own side, way back when she was among the few units standing atop the ruins of GK. That was a capital city, after all, and in a jiffy Wanda used her pliers to raise a 3000-strong army or such, plus 19 Archons. I get the feeling that, had she wanted to, she would have obliterated Stanley's remaining force, especially as many Dwagons had perished in the ambush. Plus, all this side of Erfworld, at that time, was technically against Stanley, not Wanda. Had she claimed the Tool's scalp, I think most others would have left her more or less alone (assuming she wouldn't have started a campaign of conquest) and any such thing as an RCC (temporarily) disbanded.

So, back when Erfworld was at page 14x of Book 1, I was putting forth the tinfoil hat theory that Wanda will split into her own side NOW. But she didn't. So, I don't see why she should do so, now.


Maybe she didn't want to split off at a time that would have left Stanley a barbarian with a stack of dwagons, which could have resulted in him fleeing far away from GK in search of a weak capital site and increased the chances of something unpredictable happening to the Arkenhammer. At this point, GK is rebuilt with strong defenses, so both Arkentools will remain near to each other if she (via Ossomer, perhaps) or PGLH founds a new side at Spacerock.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby abb3w » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:29 am

Sieggy wrote:Slately wants to go out in a blaze of glory so he can get into the City of Heroes.

And is (probably) not in a position for Jack to enlighten him as to the nature of the mistake implicit therein; to wit, Slately seems to be asking the wrong question.

Which leads me by a twisted path to wondering what Jack might do with a Foolamancy-oriented Tool, if Parson should impart to Jack the Hindu notion of माया Maya.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby kagato23 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:13 am

Oberon wrote: But my point stands, Caesar is looking to the near term, and contradicting Don who is looking to the long term. In the end, the long term goals will see TV in a much better position than the short term goals.
...
The facts of the matter are that Caesar is so horribly short sighted that he shouldn't even be opening his yap when discussing anything other than the fight right in front of him. And by now you might think that the other TV warlords would have recognized this in Caesar. It's kind of sad that they haven't.
The other warlords in the room seem to agree with the assessment, making the loan may keep GK away a little longer but since their side is hanging on by a thread the loan would also push them over the edge.[/quote]They don't speak, so it's hard to evaluate how they really feel. And Caesar has been amongst them talking up his subversive propaganda and undermining their confidence in Don for many turns. And none of them look happy about the situation at all. I think it is a long stretch to assume that they all love Caesar's stance. They stood with him, and that's all that matters at this time, but they should know by now that Caesar has serious issues when it comes to long term thinking.[/quote]

No, the long term goals COULD see TV in a much better postion. Could being the operative word here. I'm sure Caesar would love to see Jetstone survive this (though if FAQ had somehow gone down in flames during all of this he'd probably be doing that maypole dance Vinny once threatened). But he doesn't believe they can. He believes they are doomed and nothing will change that. This might in fact be the case.

If the neighbors building is already on fire, a fire extinguisher might not cut it. It might already be doomed to burn, and delaying that burn at your own expense does nothing but waste your money. Your better off wetting all your things down so they don't burn when the fire reaches you, giving you more time and reasources to prepare.

Don is looking at a hypothetical. He's sure it will turn out in the best possible way because he's sure of the cause. Now, what happens if Trem and Slately die by this turn's end? He's wasted his money, carpool is still about to finish him off and it was all for nothing. And that might be the moment where Caesar actually does become a traitor and conclude the sides better off without Don. Which he still hasn't done. He's done everything pretty much to Don's face because he cares less about the ideal and more about keeping the fire away from TV first and foremost and worrying about the people already on fire when they can do something about that. Which isn't now.

Caesar's long term thinking might not be so bad. If they'd taken out carpool turns ago, things might not be going this way right now.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby theseus2x » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:31 am

Something I need to bring up - Most everyone here is just taking what Don says at face value - that not going through with the loan will mean the end of Jetstone.

Absolute bull-boop.

Why should not giving them the loan mean the end of the side? Because Slately wants to lead the combat on his own? Because he's suddenly discovered his own nobility? Again, bull-boop.

This is because of Slately's pride, pure and simple. Trammenis had a good plan that seemed almost guaranteed to preserve the side. And now Slately feels bad! So instead of going
along with it, he not only wants to switch places with Tram - which will likely reduce Jetstone's paltry odds of victory - but will also cripple TV, his closest ally. Slately must know Jetstone will have a hell of a time repaying the loan in nine turns (with interest), but - as usual - he cares only for himself. This supposed "revelation" he's had has simply led him to the wrong conclusion as usual.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby imany » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:49 pm

Sieggy wrote:Slately could always SELL some of his cities (the closest to TV) to the Don, with an understanding that if the side survives, they can buy them back later at a price equal to whatever the hard terms were originally.


This sounds good in theory, but I suspect new cities would also bring an upkeep cost that TV can't afford, and JS probably needs the remaining cities it has for units/retreating if it does survive. Razing unnecessary cities seems more straightforward for getting immediate cash, and there is a reason Slately hasn't done that.

Also, I don't have a map, but I don't get the impression that TV and JS are immediate neighbors. I assume JS's cities would be prime targets by distance if JS does fall, and I think Caesar and Benny are both more worried about getting TV's own affairs in order right now.

theseus2x wrote:Something I need to bring up - Most everyone here is just taking what Don says at face value - that not going through with the loan will mean the end of Jetstone.

Absolute bull-boop.

Why should not giving them the loan mean the end of the side? Because Slately wants to lead the combat on his own? Because he's suddenly discovered his own nobility? Again, bull-boop.


I've thought this too, but at the end of the day, the Ruler's word is law. Slately had a hands-off strategy regarding war previously, but that doesn't mean his word won't trump the Chief Warlord's. If Slately orders Trammenis to do what he says, Trammenis has to obey.

That isn't to say Trammenis can't convince Slately to his point of view, but I think it's fair to say it's up in the air right now. That said, I think it's pretty likely Slately won't get his way if he can't get the loan, because leading a suicide-rush would mean feeding his units to GK. Charlie funding Trammenis' promotion is also possible, although I'm not sure if the benefits to that would outweigh the cost, since I assume he only finds JS valuable while it's intact.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby gameboy1234 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:44 pm

Sieggy wrote:But that's moot, now - Trem is going up into the Tower (the one that's about to get skragged by the Purples) to get his father out, and where the rocketpack awaits him for his retreat. Slately is toast.



Actually, I think until Slately does designate Tram as heir, he can't be toast. And while that could still happen, it seem unlikely that Slately would get the funds now. So I think the simplest prediction now is that Tramennis will get Slately out. Possibly losing every other unit in the tower as the two of them stumble out at that last second (but maybe just losing a few of the knights.)

Other possibility: even with only one jetpack, I wonder if Tram could fly out while holding Slately. They might just sink like heavies on a dwagon but that would at least get them out. It would be interesting to see Tram make use of Parson's own tactic.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby President_Allosaurus » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:58 pm

BakaGrappler wrote:What I like most about this update isn't the intrigue or the resolution of the Loan, but the faces. These faces have told me who is part of the Don Faction and who is part of the Caesar Faction.

The business suited, tall white tee shirted, and blond bombshell Warlords seem to be Don faction. The two men looked genuinely sorrowful at the knowledge of the fact that opposing this transaction, and Don himself, here would be the death of their Allies. The decision is painful for them. And the blond is worried from beginning to end, breathing a sigh of relief at the final moments suggests she is nicely in the Neutral, if not a Don supporter. And if she is Neutral, Duty will eventually cause her to side with Don anyway.

I like the Blond in this one, as she seems like she is the undecided member of the ship that is getting ready to mutiny, not able to decide what to choose, loyalty to the captain or the charm of the first lieutenant. I think following her around would give an idea of the conflict inside Transilvito from the middle ground, and not just one camp's view or the other. Good soil for plot there. ...No pun intended.

And the brunette and the raven haired girls are obviously in Caesar's camp, probably because they're all starry eyed about the guy. The only look those two gave Don was furrowed eyebrows of aggression! GRRR!

The shorty in the white tee shirt, I dunno. Didn't see enough of him in the panels.

(And since giving a name to a character often forces an author to unconsciously start thinking about them in terms of the plot and I wanna see Transilvito through the eyes of a warlord that has not chosen a faction yet, I suggest naming the blond warlord Claudia, after the character Kirsten Dunst played in Interview with a Vampire, which was a blond girl that looked like a living doll, she was so cute.)

EDIT: By the way, where is the link for the textless page this time around? I have something I wanna do with a panel in this update. :3


As per your request (I don't know where the textless page is), http://i51.tinypic.com/2mgnvad.png
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby theseus2x » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:47 pm

imany wrote:I've thought this too, but at the end of the day, the Ruler's word is law. Slately had a hands-off strategy regarding war previously, but that doesn't mean his word won't trump the Chief Warlord's. If Slately orders Trammenis to do what he says, Trammenis has to obey.

That isn't to say Trammenis can't convince Slately to his point of view, but I think it's fair to say it's up in the air right now. That said, I think it's pretty likely Slately won't get his way if he can't get the loan, because leading a suicide-rush would mean feeding his units to GK. Charlie funding Trammenis' promotion is also possible, although I'm not sure if the benefits to that would outweigh the cost, since I assume he only finds JS valuable while it's intact.


Let me clarify : I am not saying whether or not Slately or Trammenis should command. (Obviously its Trammenis, but that's beside the point.)

The point is, Slately doesn't HAVE to take command. T. has produced an excellent plan that will save Slately and Jetstone. Slately is instead going "no, no - instead of doing the smart thing, I want to lead the fight to prove myself noble. Hey Don King - buddy - you can finance my selfish wishes, right?"

Don King is wrong. It shouldn't be goodbye. He should tell Slately to man up, swallow his pride, and get his ass out of the city.

And you know what? Ben and Caesar are right : Giving the loan WOULD probably screw TV, while gaining them little. All for what? To satisfy an ally's ego.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby MonteCristo » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:54 pm

theseus2x wrote:
imany wrote:I've thought this too, but at the end of the day, the Ruler's word is law. Slately had a hands-off strategy regarding war previously, but that doesn't mean his word won't trump the Chief Warlord's. If Slately orders Trammenis to do what he says, Trammenis has to obey.

That isn't to say Trammenis can't convince Slately to his point of view, but I think it's fair to say it's up in the air right now. That said, I think it's pretty likely Slately won't get his way if he can't get the loan, because leading a suicide-rush would mean feeding his units to GK. Charlie funding Trammenis' promotion is also possible, although I'm not sure if the benefits to that would outweigh the cost, since I assume he only finds JS valuable while it's intact.


Let me clarify : I am not saying whether or not Slately or Trammenis should command. (Obviously its Trammenis, but that's beside the point.)

The point is, Slately doesn't HAVE to take command. T. has produced an excellent plan that will save Slately and Jetstone. Slately is instead going "no, no - instead of doing the smart thing, I want to lead the fight to prove myself noble. Hey Don King - buddy - you can finance my selfish wishes, right?"

Don King is wrong. It shouldn't be goodbye. He should tell Slately to man up, swallow his pride, and get his ass out of the city.

And you know what? Ben and Caesar are right : Giving the loan WOULD probably screw TV, while gaining them little. All for what? To satisfy an ally's ego.

Tram's plan is NOT so flawless. The casters pointed out that even in retreating from the city by ground, Slately takes a risk of running into wanda... he still may not survive. This is part of why Ceasar and Ben are so unwilling to go along with the loan because he does not think Jetstone will last till the end of the turn... Furtharmore, Slately does not want to prove himself noble by leading the fight, but by saving Tram... Tram is not only a great tactician, but far better embodies the ideal of royalty and is more capable of looking out for what's best for the side. Slately realizes that he himself is the reason jetstone has fallen to where it is and that its been his poor leadership that's leading to its downfall. Even if he himself survives and the side remains it will not matter since Slately is not suited to lead and it will only be a matter of time till the side falls... the best chance the side has is if Tram stays alive. Slately wants to make Tram his heir to guarantee his survivals as that's what's best for Jetstone; and should Slately not survive, Tram will make a better king... This is what he learned from Queen Bea's sacrifice; she sacrficed herself so that the rest of the RCC would have a better chance to defeat GK and survive; a Sacrfice not for pride or ego, but for the greater good.

also slately has a contract with Don, so if he says he can reimburse TV in nine turns then he can do it
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby Lamech » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:56 pm

The loan being a good idea/bad idea depends on what Jetstone will do if it gets it. If Slately simply switches with Tram? Doesn't change anything. Probably makes it worse, and reduces the bonus; a better option would be to hand the gem to a random MK caster, at least GK won't care then. If on the other hand, it means Jetstone actually tries to stay and fight, or they bring the casters with them to this fight? It might be a good idea.
Now here is why I say might suppose Jetstone kills Wanda and wins. Then Translovito is left with more cash when the loan is repaid. Assuming Jetstone has a better chance of winning, with the gem then this is a good outcome. The other outcome is that Jetstone loses; if they lose almost certainly either Carpool and co, or perhaps GK will become be on their doorstep, and to survive they will need the alliance with GK. If the don king is willing to take it? Then the losing outcome is likely the same either way alliance with GK. If the Don King isn't? Well the side probably will fall, but then they need every bit of strength they have.

So assuming the Don King can swallow his pride, and the gem will change Jetstone tactics giving the gem out will increase Jetstones odds of victory, and make that result better. But the losing result will not be much worse. Don's strategy could be "build up my allies, hope by some miracles they win, and if they don't sell out when GK comes knocking." and if it is? Its a good one. But if he is too pridefull and will fight to the end? They need to keep the gem.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby Scott Frantz » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:58 pm

Promoting Trammenis to heir isn't merely a fanciful wish on Slately's part - after all, that was Charlie's angle in offering the Archon bounty.

Slately doesn't have a safe evacuation route - Jetstone has to punch through enemy forces to get him out of the city. There's a very real chance Slately won't make it out of Spacerock. Having Tram as heir greatly increases the safety of such a maneuver.

Secondly, if you think Slately wants Tram as heir just to feed his ego when he leads the battle of Spacerock, you misunderstood Slately's conversation with Don. Slately fed his ego for thousands of turns favoring his beefy, hypermasculine sons, flaunting them at the head of Jetstone's vast infantry hordes. All the while ignoring the son who truly understood so many of the principles Slately preached on about.

It's a move that WOULD give Jetstone tactical advantage (In removing Slately as a singular weak point), and doesn't do anything to Tram's plan except swap Tram and Slately.

Add to this that, after the battle of Spacerock, even if they slaughter Gobwin Knob, there's still a huge campaign ahead to dismantle them completely. Just as Parson is of course a better Chief Warlord than Ansom, Tram is a better ruler than Slately. There's a hell of a lot more riding on this than selfish whim.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby theseus2x » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:29 pm

MonteCristo wrote:Tram's plan is NOT so flawless.


Respectfully, please read a post before you post a rebuttal. I never said it was flawless. I do claim that it seems very likely to work based on the principles of Erfworld, as they have been presented. (So yes, Parson probably could find a way to break them. :P )

MonteCristo wrote:The casters pointed out that even in retreating from the city by ground, Slately takes a risk of running into wanda... he still may not survive.


How?

It is not GK's turn. The moment Slately makes it out of the city, he will be (theoretically) safe. Wanda cannot chase him, and even if she sends everything to catch him before he exits, Trammenis and the other forces SHOULD be able to hold her off long enough to make Slately's escape. Yes, those forces might fall to the pliers, but they still won't be able to catch Slately in time. Wanda will literally have to go through everything Jetstone has left to catch him, and as powerful as she is, Wanda isn't that fast.

Hell, this should be a moot point. Wanda is currently busy securing the portal. If Slately just walked out like he was supposed to, he'd be safe by now.

MonteCristo wrote:This is part of why Ceasar and Ben are so unwilling to go along with the loan because he does not think Jetstone will last till the end of the turn...


I disagree with this assessment. You are assuming that Caesar and Ben know about the Slately escape plan. Right now, what they know is that Jetstone is in an almost impossible situation at Spacerock, and their Ruler is in Spacerock with no heir. Further, even if Jetstone survives the turn, GK will presumably go after them, at the Old Capital or wherever else. I don't see Caesar going "I don't think Trammenis' plan is going to work." I see him going "Jetstone is in deep trouble. There only hope is to croak Wanda before she croaks them, and that's a small chance." Caesar IS being reasonable about this. If he knew T. was ordering Slately out of the city, he'd probably approve, but not enough to okay the loan.

MonteCristo wrote:Furtharmore, Slately does not want to prove himself noble by leading the fight, but by saving Tram... Tram is not only a great tactician, but far better embodies the ideal of royalty and is more capable of looking out for what's best for the side. Slately realizes that he himself is the reason jetstone has fallen to where it is and that its been his poor leadership that's leading to its downfall. Even if he himself survives and the side remains it will not matter since Slately is not suited to lead and it will only be a matter of time till the side falls... the best chance the side has is if Tram stays alive. Slately wants to make Tram his heir to guarantee his survivals as that's what's best for Jetstone; and should Slately not survive, Tram will make a better king... This is what he learned from Queen Bea's sacrifice; she sacrficed herself so that the rest of the RCC would have a better chance to defeat GK and survive; a Sacrfice not for pride or ego, but for the greater good.


Sorry - not buying it. This is Slately. Even when he DOES realize he messed up and tries to do the right thing, he does it for the wrong reason. If he was so desperate to save Trammenis, he'd tell him "So join me in escaping." or something. Instead, he wants to switch places and prove himself a Royal either by winning or going out in a blaze of glory. And who asks a nearly bankrupt friend for a massive loan? No.

MonteCristo wrote:also slately has a contract with Don, so if he says he can reimburse TV in nine turns then he can do it


Oh, I'm not saying Jetstone would back out on paying it back. I'm saying what Benjamin is saying. Even if Jetstone finds a way to survive the turn, it seems very unlikely they survive nine more after suffering those losses. (Which naturally, makes GK stronger.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby BakaGrappler » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:32 pm

President_Allosaurus wrote:
Spoiler: show
BakaGrappler wrote:What I like most about this update isn't the intrigue or the resolution of the Loan, but the faces. These faces have told me who is part of the Don Faction and who is part of the Caesar Faction.

The business suited, tall white tee shirted, and blond bombshell Warlords seem to be Don faction. The two men looked genuinely sorrowful at the knowledge of the fact that opposing this transaction, and Don himself, here would be the death of their Allies. The decision is painful for them. And the blond is worried from beginning to end, breathing a sigh of relief at the final moments suggests she is nicely in the Neutral, if not a Don supporter. And if she is Neutral, Duty will eventually cause her to side with Don anyway.

I like the Blond in this one, as she seems like she is the undecided member of the ship that is getting ready to mutiny, not able to decide what to choose, loyalty to the captain or the charm of the first lieutenant. I think following her around would give an idea of the conflict inside Transilvito from the middle ground, and not just one camp's view or the other. Good soil for plot there. ...No pun intended.

And the brunette and the raven haired girls are obviously in Caesar's camp, probably because they're all starry eyed about the guy. The only look those two gave Don was furrowed eyebrows of aggression! GRRR!

The shorty in the white tee shirt, I dunno. Didn't see enough of him in the panels.

(And since giving a name to a character often forces an author to unconsciously start thinking about them in terms of the plot and I wanna see Transilvito through the eyes of a warlord that has not chosen a faction yet, I suggest naming the blond warlord Claudia, after the character Kirsten Dunst played in Interview with a Vampire, which was a blond girl that looked like a living doll, she was so cute.)

EDIT: By the way, where is the link for the textless page this time around? I have something I wanna do with a panel in this update. :3


As per your request (I don't know where the textless page is), http://i51.tinypic.com/2mgnvad.png


Thanks for the image, President. But now that I've thought about it, the avatar image I had been wanting to make is most likely against the forum rules. I was intending to take panel 4 which prominently shows that Ben's glasses are the bifocals his Stupid World counterpart is known for inventing and using a text bubble have him say, "I invented bifocals, and (Derogatory term for women favored by rappers)" using the presence of the female warlord and the hand on Ben's shoulder to suggest he was being very "pimp." On further review, such an avatar is very likely to offend, and thus, be against the rules.

And now to add something to the conversation...

Scott Frantz wrote:Promoting Trammenis to heir isn't merely a fanciful wish on Slately's part - after all, that was Charlie's angle in offering the Archon bounty.

Slately doesn't have a safe evacuation route - Jetstone has to punch through enemy forces to get him out of the city. There's a very real chance Slately won't make it out of Spacerock. Having Tram as heir greatly increases the safety of such a maneuver.

Secondly, if you think Slately wants Tram as heir just to feed his ego when he leads the battle of Spacerock, you misunderstood Slately's conversation with Don. Slately fed his ego for thousands of turns favoring his beefy, hypermasculine sons, flaunting them at the head of Jetstone's vast infantry hordes. All the while ignoring the son who truly understood so many of the principles Slately preached on about.

It's a move that WOULD give Jetstone tactical advantage (In removing Slately as a singular weak point), and doesn't do anything to Tram's plan except swap Tram and Slately.

Add to this that, after the battle of Spacerock, even if they slaughter Gobwin Knob, there's still a huge campaign ahead to dismantle them completely. Just as Parson is of course a better Chief Warlord than Ansom, Tram is a better ruler than Slately. There's a hell of a lot more riding on this than selfish whim.


I think that making Tram the Heir is a good move. I think that making Tram the King is a bad move.

The ruler needs to be on the back lines at the safest place possible. Why? Because his death kills the side. That would mean that Slately killing himself will leave Tram without an heir and unable to go into the front to fight against Gobwin's Knob and Parson, thus removing him from the position of Chief Warlord and ensuring that GK steamrolls Jetstone and ends the side in another 30 turns. Slately will effectively be ending the side with his suicide, but it will just take longer to accomplish than what Bea did.

Oh, and it takes 80 turns to pop an heir? Yeah, Tram wouldn't be able to do diddly in that time on the front lines. Bye, bye Jetstone.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby MonteCristo » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:48 pm

theseus2x wrote:How?

It is not GK's turn. The moment Slately makes it out of the city, he will be (theoretically) safe. Wanda cannot chase him, and even if she sends everything to catch him before he exits, Trammenis and the other forces SHOULD be able to hold her off long enough to make Slately's escape. Yes, those forces might fall to the pliers, but they still won't be able to catch Slately in time. Wanda will literally have to go through everything Jetstone has left to catch him, and as powerful as she is, Wanda isn't that fast.

First, To get to the city, they must first get out of the tower and Wanda currently controls most of the ground floor... This means they will have to go through GK's forces to get to the city
Second, You assume too much to say that Wanda will not get a shot because she is engaging Tram... Slately has to go through her forces, so that alone means he will risk an encounter. Tram and TV have no idea where Wanda is (and no idea she's busy securing the portal room) and for all they know she could be waiting in the back expecting them to try and get the king out and making certain that does not happen... Hell i'm sure that Parson's mart enough that he would know that Jetstone might try to get the King out, and thus would have the forces prepare for his attempted escape


MonteCristo wrote:This is part of why Ceasar and Ben are so unwilling to go along with the loan because he does not think Jetstone will last till the end of the turn...


I disagree with this assessment. You are assuming that Caesar and Ben know about the Slately escape plan. Right now, what they know is that Jetstone is in an almost impossible situation at Spacerock, and their Ruler is in Spacerock with no heir. Further, even if Jetstone survives the turn, GK will presumably go after them, at the Old Capital or wherever else. I don't see Caesar going "I don't think Trammenis' plan is going to work." I see him going "Jetstone is in deep trouble. There only hope is to croak Wanda before she croaks them, and that's a small chance." Caesar IS being reasonable about this. If he knew T. was ordering Slately out of the city, he'd probably approve, but not enough to okay the loan.

You assume that GK will have the move to even reach the old capitol in nine turns... we have no idea how far the next city is, much less how far the the old capitol is. They might make it there if they only take the dwagons, but if they want to have as many forces as possible to attack the old captiol then they are gonna have to move with the much slower infantry... afterall we have no idea how strong the anti-air garrison is at the old capitol and Parson would anticipate Faq to aid in the air defence. Also, While GK would increase the number of their forces in a fight with Jetstone, they might end up loosing a good number of the decrypted dwagons giving them fewer high speed forces to take on the old capitol. Futharmore, Tram does believe that it is still possible to win this fight, so that chances of croaking Wanda can not be that small

MonteCristo wrote:Furtharmore, Slately does not want to prove himself noble by leading the fight, but by saving Tram... Tram is not only a great tactician, but far better embodies the ideal of royalty and is more capable of looking out for what's best for the side. Slately realizes that he himself is the reason jetstone has fallen to where it is and that its been his poor leadership that's leading to its downfall. Even if he himself survives and the side remains it will not matter since Slately is not suited to lead and it will only be a matter of time till the side falls... the best chance the side has is if Tram stays alive. Slately wants to make Tram his heir to guarantee his survivals as that's what's best for Jetstone; and should Slately not survive, Tram will make a better king... This is what he learned from Queen Bea's sacrifice; she sacrficed herself so that the rest of the RCC would have a better chance to defeat GK and survive; a Sacrfice not for pride or ego, but for the greater good.


Sorry - not buying it. This is Slately. Even when he DOES realize he messed up and tries to do the right thing, he does it for the wrong reason. If he was so desperate to save Trammenis, he'd tell him "So join me in escaping." or something. Instead, he wants to switch places and prove himself a Royal either by winning or going out in a blaze of glory. And who asks a nearly bankrupt friend for a massive loan? No.

Slately has gone through serious development and is now thinking differently than he was before.
Furtharmore, he CAN'T take Tram with them because if he did then they would be throwing away what may still be their best chance of croaking Wanda. As Tram said, they still have the power to win this fight; and Even if they loose, they may still be able to croak wanda... But without ruler or the chiefwarlord then any chance of that will be completely lost. Someone MUST stay behind if they want to take out wanda... If he takes Tram he might aswell abandon the city all together just as Tram was planning to do IF he thought the chances of Loosing was too high... The difference is that Tram was only going to abandon the city if he thought the fight was too impossible to win, where as Slately would be abandoning the city right away disregarding whether or not they have a chance of winning; if it turns out that they COULD have have croaked wanda here and now but gave up that chance, that would be WORSE for jetstone in the long run. And really, i don't think he has any intention of going down in a "blaze of glory" as that would mean that he was not paying attention to his son's plan, the son who he believes is a better man than himself and knows whats best for the side; he will follow his son's plan and only engage the enemy if he thinks there is a chance of winning... only difference between him and Tram with this plan is that Tram would likely be better at making that judgement

BakaGrappler wrote:I think that making Tram the Heir is a good move. I think that making Tram the King is a bad move.

The ruler needs to be on the back lines at the safest place possible. Why? Because his death kills the side. That would mean that Slately killing himself will leave Tram without an heir and unable to go into the front to fight against Gobwin's Knob and Parson, thus removing him from the position of Chief Warlord and ensuring that GK steamrolls Jetstone and ends the side in another 30 turns. Slately will effectively be ending the side with his suicide, but it will just take longer to accomplish than what Bea did.

Who says Tram must lead from the frontlines? I mean look at just how much Charlie manages without leaving his room. And then there's jillian who does lead from the frontlines despite the risks. Just because Slately had a hands-off approach to the military does not mean Tram needs to do the same. Tram can lead from the back and Rely on a chief warlord with higher strength than himself to lead the forces in the actual combat.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby theseus2x » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:37 pm

MonteCristo wrote:First, To get to the city, they must first get out of the tower and Wanda currently controls most of the ground floor... This means they will have to go through GK's forces to get to the city
Second, You assume too much to say that Wanda will not get a shot because she is engaging Tram... Slately has to go through her forces, so that alone means he will risk an encounter. Tram and TV have no idea where Wanda is (and no idea she's busy securing the portal room) and for all they know she could be waiting in the back expecting them to try and get the king out and making certain that does not happen... Hell i'm sure that Parson's mart enough that he would know that Jetstone might try to get the King out, and thus would have the forces prepare for his attempted escape


Uhm, no?

Reread the pages carefully. Wanda has NOT conquered all the first floor. She only has the courtyard and whatever she needed to take the backdoor to the portal. That's it. To assume she's done more... I really don't know where you are getting that?

Want citations? Please read Page 54: Trammenis : "Send the King the all clear." All clear means all clear.

If you read Trammenis' explanation of his battle-plan, you'll see that GK clearly does NOT control the hallways leading out. The only reason Slately needs an escort at all is to fight off GK if they try exactly what you are suggesting, and to escort him once he's left the city. And even then, they aren't trying to do anything more than get Slately to safety.

Meanwhile, Trammenis and the rest of the Jetstone forces will be doing exactly what T. said they would do. Attacking if it seemed possible, covering the king's retreat and withdrawing if not. Either way, Slately should get away. (Though I certainly concede Parson can probably much T.'s plan up.)

I realize its fun to speculate on what might be happening off-panel. But until we actually see it, we have to work off what's been put out there alone.

MonteCristo wrote:You assume that GK will have the move to even reach the old capitol in nine turns... we have no idea how far the next city is, much less how far the the old capitol is. They might make it there if they only take the dwagons, but if they want to have as many forces as possible to attack the old captiol then they are gonna have to move with the much slower infantry... afterall we have no idea how strong the anti-air garrison is at the old capitol and Parson would anticipate Faq to aid in the air defence. Also, While GK would increase the number of their forces in a fight with Jetstone, they might end up loosing a good number of the decrypted dwagons giving them fewer high speed forces to take on the old capitol.


... I will concede that we have no idea how far it is exactly. However, Trammenis seems reasonably confidant that if he can get Slately outside the city, Slately will make it to Old Jetstone (or wherever) before GK can hunt him down on their own turn. This implies that it is relatively close. Also : keep in mind nine turns of movement is actually HUGE in Erfworld. It only took Jillian and Vinnie a turn or so to reach the Pass to Faq.

MonteCristo wrote:Futharmore, Tram does believe that it is still possible to win this fight, so that chances of croaking Wanda can not be that small


And this supports your assumptions how?

MonteCristo wrote:Slately has gone through serious development and is now thinking differently than he was before.


Mmmm.... yes and no. I think he looks at himself and Trammenis differently. He certainly says as much. But he's still obsessed with the role of Nobility/Royalty. Perhaps more than ever. Otherwise, he wouldn't be guilting his best friend into bankrupting himself when other options are available.

MonteCristo wrote:Furtharmore, he CAN'T take Tram with them because if he did then they would be throwing away what may still be their best chance of croaking Wanda.


True. So instead, he switches places with Trammenis, and tries to do it himself.

Uh-uh. Trammenis has the best chance of croaking Wanda. For Slately to lead the attack would just be pumping more troops into GK.

_________________________________

Some of your points are perfectly valid. But you ignore actual facts from the comic to justify assumptions that are completely unsupported. Again - look at the GK troops in the Courtyard. All we KNOW they have is the Courtyard, the "back way" and the portal room. Nothing has suggested they have cut off the escape route, or are in immediate position to do so.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:16 pm

Slately's head gear might be worth more than a gem. It is sad to lose ones friends but nothing is worse than losing a hat. :P

(sorry if this was already pointed out. I have not read the comments.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby imany » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:59 am

theseus2x wrote:Let me clarify : I am not saying whether or not Slately or Trammenis should command. (Obviously its Trammenis, but that's beside the point.)

The point is, Slately doesn't HAVE to take command. T. has produced an excellent plan that will save Slately and Jetstone. Slately is instead going "no, no - instead of doing the smart thing, I want to lead the fight to prove myself noble. Hey Don King - buddy - you can finance my selfish wishes, right?"

Don King is wrong. It shouldn't be goodbye. He should tell Slately to man up, swallow his pride, and get his ass out of the city.

And you know what? Ben and Caesar are right : Giving the loan WOULD probably screw TV, while gaining them little. All for what? To satisfy an ally's ego.


To clarify -my- point, it doesn't matter whether or not Trammenis is better geared to command. If Slately designates Trammenis heir and orders him to safety, Trammenis would have to comply or face the consequences. Slately's ability to do this seems to depend purely on whether or not he can scrape together the funds to designate Trammenis. Since I don't see that happening this turn, I think you're right in your original point.

That said, yes, Slately appears to be less capable than Trammenis. This is based purely on the fact that Slately has always delegated--we don't actually know his tactical capability because he's always had someone else acting as Chief Warlord. I would also argue that his former heirs were not entirely incompetent--apparently Ansom is a capable warlord, so Slately's judgment may not be entirely bad, merely colored by Royal snootiness.

Slately's wish has a streak of selfishness, but it isn't just about his ego--going out in glory would be a perk. He wants to make sure Jetsone would be secure under Trammenis' leadership, not his, because he finally understands Trammenis will put the good of Jetstone before anything else. Slately doesn't believe in his own ability to do so, apparently, so he would rather lead a battle in Trammenis' place to ensure the future of Jetstone.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby Oberon » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:06 am

kagato23 wrote:No, the long term goals COULD see TV in a much better postion. Could being the operative word here.
Well, sure. That's why they are called "long term goals", they cannot be judged until sufficient time has passed to see if they have paid off. The point remains, Caesar is a limited thinker, and cannot plan for long term goals. Don is not a limited thinker, and does plan for the long term. This is why they are at odds, but it doesn't give Caesar an excuse for his disloyalty.
theseus2x wrote:Trammenis had a good plan that seemed almost guaranteed to preserve the side. And now Slately feels bad! So instead of going along with it, he not only wants to switch places with Tram - which will likely reduce Jetstone's paltry odds of victory - but will also cripple TV, his closest ally. So instead of going along with [Tram's plan], [Slately] not only wants to switch places with Tram - which will likely reduce Jetstone's paltry odds of victory - but will also cripple TV, his closest ally. Slately must know Jetstone will have a hell of a time repaying the loan in nine turns (with interest), but - as usual - he cares only for himself. This supposed "revelation" he's had has simply led him to the wrong conclusion as usual.
Slately switching places with Tram does a whole lot more than just make Slately feel better about himself or allow Slately to go out in a blaze of nobility. Slately's plan offers up regime change. The sole hope for Jetstone now is to be commanded by someone who isn't holding the idiot ball. So let's hope that this is a good week for Tram, because his prior record is spotty. But in any event, Tram is the better hope for Jetstone than Slately, and Slately knows it. Thus, his plan.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby No one in particular » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:35 am

Oberon wrote:
kagato23 wrote:No, the long term goals COULD see TV in a much better postion. Could being the operative word here.
Well, sure. That's why they are called "long term goals", they cannot be judged until sufficient time has passed to see if they have paid off. The point remains, Caesar is a limited thinker, and cannot plan for long term goals. Don is not a limited thinker, and does plan for the long term. This is why they are at odds, but it doesn't give Caesar an excuse for his disloyalty.
It's not that Caesar can't plan for the long term, it's that he's concerned with actually surviving the short term. An investment that pays off next year, no matter how good, isn't good if you starve to death this week. I can't stress this enough: if you die before your investment pays off, it's not worth investing in.

Oberon wrote:
theseus2x wrote:Trammenis had a good plan that seemed almost guaranteed to preserve the side. And now Slately feels bad! So instead of going along with it, he not only wants to switch places with Tram - which will likely reduce Jetstone's paltry odds of victory - but will also cripple TV, his closest ally. So instead of going along with [Tram's plan], [Slately] not only wants to switch places with Tram - which will likely reduce Jetstone's paltry odds of victory - but will also cripple TV, his closest ally. Slately must know Jetstone will have a hell of a time repaying the loan in nine turns (with interest), but - as usual - he cares only for himself. This supposed "revelation" he's had has simply led him to the wrong conclusion as usual.
Slately switching places with Tram does a whole lot more than just make Slately feel better about himself or allow Slately to go out in a blaze of nobility. Slately's plan offers up regime change. The sole hope for Jetstone now is to be commanded by someone who isn't holding the idiot ball. So let's hope that this is a good week for Tram, because his prior record is spotty. But in any event, Tram is the better hope for Jetstone than Slately, and Slately knows it. Thus, his plan.
All I have to say is... yeah. As it stands, Slately needs to survive so Jetstone can continue, Tramennis needs to survive to give it a fighting chance. Making him the heir means you can skip the Slately step. And if Parson and Tramennis get to talking, you just KNOW Parson will have some serious hesitations about just croaking him. He'll want to talk again, preferably not decrypted.
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