Book 2 - Text Updates 047

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Re: Digression into la-la land grade mathematical philosophy

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun May 01, 2011 6:22 am

abb3w wrote:Harris makes a fairly basic mistake; he doesn't pay enough attention to Hume's is-ought divide.


Oi! That's what I said! Bloody Hume stealing me ideas 'bout Harris' speech. Who this Hume bloke anyway?

abb3w wrote:The differences resulting, however, do not make the resulting inferences about morality non-objective any more than the differences between Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometry make all geometry non-objective. It's merely important to be clear at the linguistic/semantic level.


I sure love how that post does not display a fetish for the word "construct". Instead it displays a fetish for math, which I can totally get behind. In any case, as a third side in the debate, it would be more welcome in a certain thread in the Internet and Webcomics forum: Shades of Grey and Morality.

Sylvan wrote:"he writes as though he is afraid someone reading will actually understand him".


:lol: Awesome. But strangely familiar. Didn't Dawkins originate this quote in one of his pop-sci books?

Sylvan wrote:My apologies if this post is simply a lack of imagination/cognition on my part, I just honestly don't get what you are trying to say and don't see any illogical leap from "this is how it is" to "this is how it ought to be" present in the video linked.


TW;DF:

Once you know what you want, you can have a measure of how good a plan is to get you there. So what do you want? Why?

Specifically, once we decide we want to minimize suffering/maximize wellbeing (jumping over nitpicks like how to quantify them), we can decide which paths are better towards that goal or not. Why should we want to minimize suffering/maximize wellbeing, however?

teratorn wrote:Poor Ossomer, here he is facing death and yet people prefer to discuss Caesar's fate, Caesar that isn't even mentioned in the update. Really a minor character.


Yeah boop Ossomer. The only guy who even cared to mention him was Infidel, and that was to wish a grisly death upon Prince Meatslab.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Sylvan » Sun May 01, 2011 7:02 am

Ah, I'll take the discussion there then.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Althernai » Sun May 01, 2011 7:58 am

Oberon wrote:If you read my post above, you'll see that I also said that we haven't seen Don's plan, and that I found this to be rather stupid of Don. I believe that he has a plan, because he is otherwise characterized as being an intelligent person and a long range thinker. Setting up FAQ was thinking well outside the box, and besides being unorthodox it was very long term planning. His relationship with Jetstone, his avoidance of GK, and his involvement in both the RCC and the RCCII have also appeared to have been the result of long term planning.

This is possible. However, all of those things can also be explained by other things mentioned in the comic. For example, his involvement with the first RCC and avoidance of Gobwin Knob could have been simply because Stanley attacked Transylvito. FAQ could be because "the King is seduced // By a Queen he produced". The RCCII could be because of Queen Bea. I mean, maybe he does have some long-term master plan which he can't tell even to his most trusted lieutenants and which pushes Transylvito to the very edge before recovering, but the comic as written works well enough if his actions are based on separate decisions made for different reasons.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Beeskee » Sun May 01, 2011 8:14 am

Don did screw up - he didn't socialize his plans better and bring all his warlords aboard. That WAS how he ran things before, and the abrupt shift derailed everyone.

Don could come up with a dozen reasons to support Faq that Caesar would go along with. He could probably sell any concept, from supporting the cause of nobility, to "they're a meat shield for us" - but he didn't even try.

Not to say that is unreasonable. That's how Erfworld works: the ruler gives orders, they get obeyed. He gave his folks a taste of freedom and now all of a sudden they're thinking for themselves and disagreeing with him on things they wouldn't normally have a say in.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby ryanroyce » Sun May 01, 2011 10:01 am

Beeskee wrote:Don did screw up - he didn't socialize his plans better and bring all his warlords aboard. That WAS how he ran things before, and the abrupt shift derailed everyone.

Don could come up with a dozen reasons to support Faq that Caesar would go along with. He could probably sell any concept, from supporting the cause of nobility, to "they're a meat shield for us" - but he didn't even try.

Not to say that is unreasonable. That's how Erfworld works: the ruler gives orders, they get obeyed. He gave his folks a taste of freedom and now all of a sudden they're thinking for themselves and disagreeing with him on things they wouldn't normally have a say in.


Perhaps Don now thinks that a king should not need to explain himself to his inferiors? His support of Queen Jillian is a royal matter and not be business of mere nobles and warlords, regardless of how much that support endangers the Side. Yeesh.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Beeskee » Sun May 01, 2011 10:36 am

I don't disagree with that, just saying that Don's mistake was trying to go back to that after being on more comfortable grounds with his warlords.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Oberon » Sun May 01, 2011 2:38 pm

ryanroyce wrote:Perhaps Don now thinks that a king should not need to explain himself to his inferiors?
That's possible, and it also can fit in with the mobster culture. But it doe not fit in with the fact that Don has advisers. You can be the sole ruler, expecting only absolute obedience. But you cannot accept the advice of your heir, casters, and warlords one day and then expect them to understand why you're not inviting them to council the next. And Don is inviting them to council, clearly. Just not fully, it seems. He wanted them all to watch Jillian wipe out the GK expeditionary force, but changed that to "Hey, look what a great thing it was that Jillian ended the GK turn and captured their CWL before leaving Jetstone." Which, as Caesar was quick to point out, was not the plan. So some plans are being shared. Meh, maybe he has no long term plan after all...
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby kagato23 » Sun May 01, 2011 6:35 pm

Oberon wrote:
ryanroyce wrote:Perhaps Don now thinks that a king should not need to explain himself to his inferiors?
That's possible, and it also can fit in with the mobster culture. But it doe not fit in with the fact that Don has advisers. You can be the sole ruler, expecting only absolute obedience. But you cannot accept the advice of your heir, casters, and warlords one day and then expect them to understand why you're not inviting them to council the next. And Don is inviting them to council, clearly. Just not fully, it seems. He wanted them all to watch Jillian wipe out the GK expeditionary force, but changed that to "Hey, look what a great thing it was that Jillian ended the GK turn and captured their CWL before leaving Jetstone." Which, as Caesar was quick to point out, was not the plan. So some plans are being shared. Meh, maybe he has no long term plan after all...


I think what we are seeing with Don is that he has an ideal. Which is notably different then a good plan. Now, you can realize the steps to an ideal, and make those appropriate steps, so in some ways it resembles a plan. But it's not. Don sees the losses of other royal sides as something that can't happen, a loss of Royalism to Toolism. He doesn't see Transylvito's solvency as the top priority over this. His moves are reactionary, plans are action oriented. Caesar and co think first and foremost in terms of Transylvito vs Whomever (Carpool, GK, whoever else wants to be starting something), and thus is conflict born.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby atalex » Sun May 01, 2011 7:09 pm

Oberon wrote:
ryanroyce wrote:Perhaps Don now thinks that a king should not need to explain himself to his inferiors?
That's possible, and it also can fit in with the mobster culture. But it doe not fit in with the fact that Don has advisers. You can be the sole ruler, expecting only absolute obedience. But you cannot accept the advice of your heir, casters, and warlords one day and then expect them to understand why you're not inviting them to council the next. And Don is inviting them to council, clearly. Just not fully, it seems. He wanted them all to watch Jillian wipe out the GK expeditionary force, but changed that to "Hey, look what a great thing it was that Jillian ended the GK turn and captured their CWL before leaving Jetstone." Which, as Caesar was quick to point out, was not the plan. So some plans are being shared. Meh, maybe he has no long term plan after all...


I think he had a fairly good plan which did not take into account the fact that Jillian is selfish, unreliable and has the emotional maturity of 7-year-old child. I think something in Jillian reminded him of Bea and that clouded his judgment in his dealings with her. I wonder if he knew that Vinnie Doombats was not accompanying Jillian to JS; I suspect if he'd been there, he could have persuaded Jillian to take on Wanda or at least been enough to tip the scales in favor of going back. If nothing else, he could have persuaded her to contact Don King and she would have learned how precarious a situation JS was really in.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Beeskee » Sun May 01, 2011 10:07 pm

Yeah, Don can't exactly make any long-range plans where Jillian is involved. He's probably considering himself lucky that she didn't switch sides.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby auraseer » Sun May 01, 2011 10:39 pm

atalex wrote:I wonder if he knew that Vinnie Doombats was not accompanying Jillian to JS

He must have known, at least if he were paying any attention. Vinnie is still a TV unit, so Don could always tell his location by Natural Thinkamancy.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby wrecan » Mon May 02, 2011 8:49 am

Beeskee wrote:Don did screw up - he didn't socialize his plans better and bring all his warlords aboard. That WAS how he ran things before, and the abrupt shift derailed everyone.

The problem is that Don's shift was more global than "I'm going to give Slately a loan." Don't shift was "It was a mistake to promote people based on merit more than nobility. It has allowed the rise of Toolism; it made us all lose focus on the real threats; it is probably the reason I've had to put down so many rebellions." The problem is that all the people in his "inner circle" are egalitarians. Caesar was a minor nobleman promoted to heir. None of the other warlords in the war room appear to even have noble titles (Dewy Tulips and Leather Valese are the only names we know.) So Don basically realized he's been promoting the wrong people. So he sent Count Vinny (the highest ranking nobleman worth a damn) to safety with Queen Jillian. He pays to pop a new heir -- someone who will be high-ranking noble. He sends Viscount Borgata on dangerous missions in the hopes he'll get himself offed.

Don is trying to radically reorganize in a room of people who like the status quo. Were he honest about his plans, his warlords' loyalty would take a nosedive and he'd have had to put down (or be put down by) an insurrection long before.

The loan to Slately was a bellwether for Don. It shows him just what he's up against.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby MichaelR138 » Mon May 02, 2011 11:04 am

wrecan wrote:
Beeskee wrote:Don did screw up - he didn't socialize his plans better and bring all his warlords aboard. That WAS how he ran things before, and the abrupt shift derailed everyone.

The problem is that Don's shift was more global than "I'm going to give Slately a loan." Don't shift was "It was a mistake to promote people based on merit more than nobility. It has allowed the rise of Toolism; it made us all lose focus on the real threats; it is probably the reason I've had to put down so many rebellions." The problem is that all the people in his "inner circle" are egalitarians. Caesar was a minor nobleman promoted to heir. None of the other warlords in the war room appear to even have noble titles (Dewy Tulips and Leather Valese are the only names we know.) So Don basically realized he's been promoting the wrong people. So he sent Count Vinny (the highest ranking nobleman worth a damn) to safety with Queen Jillian. He pays to pop a new heir -- someone who will be high-ranking noble. He sends Viscount Borgata on dangerous missions in the hopes he'll get himself offed.

Don is trying to radically reorganize in a room of people who like the status quo. Were he honest about his plans, his warlords' loyalty would take a nosedive and he'd have had to put down (or be put down by) an insurrection long before.

The loan to Slately was a bellwether for Don. It shows him just what he's up against.


I am confused, you are thinking that Don is now wanting to reorganize his whole command structure, in the middle of a war he is losing, by getting rid of his competent non-royal warlords so he can promote nobility to their positions once he pops some? And then to support that you have him trying to bump off 2-3 of his 4 known royal warlords out of the few total warlords he has left? And somehow you don't see this as a sign of madness setting in as it almost guarantees the end of his side to being conquered by Carpool?


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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby the_tick_rules » Mon May 02, 2011 1:46 pm

I think he is pretty much right on with Don's idea. Not that it's a good idea.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon May 02, 2011 2:07 pm

Yeah ...

I'm telling you, Jack is the only sane person in all of Erfworld. He's just acting crazy so that the others don't catch on.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby wrecan » Mon May 02, 2011 5:41 pm

MichaelR138 wrote:I am confused, you are thinking that Don is now wanting to reorganize his whole command structure, in the middle of a war he is losing, by getting rid of his competent non-royal warlords so he can promote nobility to their positions once he pops some? And then to support that you have him trying to bump off 2-3 of his 4 known royal warlords out of the few total warlords he has left? And somehow you don't see this as a sign of madness setting in as it almost guarantees the end of his side to being conquered by Carpool?

Yep. Not a great idea, but that's exactly what I think he's doing. Some things to consider...

1) The only competent warlord he really wants to ditch is Caesar. Caesar is currently heir. He's popular. He's even in a relationship with the Don's own thinkamancer. He's also expensive and his loyalty was never on solid ground to begin with (probably due to the fact that Caesar is a low-ranking noble).

2) Unless you're a bubble kingdom, you're always at war. So if you're going to make a drastic change in command, it's always going to be in the middle of a war, because you're never not at war.

3) He is popping an expensive heir right at a time when he needs the money to support other royals. Unaroyal is gone. Jetstone's about gone. Who is left? Sofa King? Haggar? Jillian?! So clearly, he 's not above making very risky moves.

4) The attempt to bump off Caesar failed. It's over. Don King hasn't tried since. Now he's just trying to figure out if Caesar will go quietly into retirement somewhere. It doesn't seem to be in Caesar's nature.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby ftl » Mon May 02, 2011 10:07 pm

wrecan wrote:[
1) The only competent warlord he really wants to ditch is Caesar. Caesar is currently heir. He's popular. He's even in a relationship with the Don's own thinkamancer. He's also expensive and his loyalty was never on solid ground to begin with (probably due to the fact that Caesar is a low-ranking noble).


Where are you getting the idea that his loyalty was "never on solid ground to begin with"?

From what we know, prior to Don King throwing his Side's welfare to the winds, there were no loyalty issues with Caesar.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Smoker » Tue May 03, 2011 8:27 am

wrecan wrote:2) Unless you're a bubble kingdom, you're always at war. So if you're going to make a drastic change in command, it's always going to be in the middle of a war, because you're never not at war.


This is a fantastic point. There's been a lot of "but Carpool" arguments on here, so its worth noting that even if Don stopped TV's involvement in the GK conflict and demolished Carpool, TV would then be at war with Carpools current neighbours. Thats the nature of the game.

As it happens, TV and Carpool have never been able to completely conquer each other, and it seems that they haven't really been trying to do so, since all they seem to do is trade back and forth the cities on their shared border. So now Carpool has three of them - its probably not the first time they've snuck ahead in the conflict.

Also remember that we know almost nothing about Carpool. It might be that Carpool has a huge conflict on another front that they are attending to, or it might be that Carpool is smart enough to leave TV standing between GK and themselves.

Anyway, I like Wrecan's point, even though I veered off it a bit :)
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby Jinren » Tue May 03, 2011 9:54 am

Smoker wrote:
wrecan wrote:2) Unless you're a bubble kingdom, you're always at war. So if you're going to make a drastic change in command, it's always going to be in the middle of a war, because you're never not at war.


This is a fantastic point. There's been a lot of "but Carpool" arguments on here, so its worth noting that even if Don stopped TV's involvement in the GK conflict and demolished Carpool, TV would then be at war with Carpools current neighbours. Thats the nature of the game.


While technically true, there's "at war" and "at war". Currently TV seems to be on a defensive footing and losing ground; you don't have to be a bubble kingdom to be surrounded on most sides by allies, enjoying good productive output and in the process of delivering the finishing blow to the one side that wouldn't fall into line. e.g. Life in Spacerock during Book 1, or people staying at home in Gobwin Knob itself at the moment, are technically in a state of war but the conflict isn't being perceived as a direct threat to life and limb in the same way as TV's current situation.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 047

Postby MichaelR138 » Tue May 03, 2011 11:50 am

Jinren wrote:
Smoker wrote:
wrecan wrote:2) Unless you're a bubble kingdom, you're always at war. So if you're going to make a drastic change in command, it's always going to be in the middle of a war, because you're never not at war.


This is a fantastic point. There's been a lot of "but Carpool" arguments on here, so its worth noting that even if Don stopped TV's involvement in the GK conflict and demolished Carpool, TV would then be at war with Carpools current neighbours. Thats the nature of the game.


While technically true, there's "at war" and "at war". Currently TV seems to be on a defensive footing and losing ground; you don't have to be a bubble kingdom to be surrounded on most sides by allies, enjoying good productive output and in the process of delivering the finishing blow to the one side that wouldn't fall into line. e.g. Life in Spacerock during Book 1, or people staying at home in Gobwin Knob itself at the moment, are technically in a state of war but the conflict isn't being perceived as a direct threat to life and limb in the same way as TV's current situation.


Exactly, do we even know how many cities TV had before losing the three to Carpool or how many they are now down to? We do know they have lost significant forces, warlords, and income of the past 100 turns to the point that all the leadership BUT Don King is very concerned for TV's continued existence. We also know that Don King DOES NOT have a firm plan, otherwise he would not have let Slately's sob story convince him to make a loan that is bad for both sides. Everyone here supporting Don fails to address the point that even with ownership of Spacerock, Jetstone has not been able to pay their upkeep the past several turns. Now we take away their best city, and add the burden of paying back this large loan in short time with a heavy interest rate and I do not see how JS can do that AND maintain the fight against GK over that 9 turn period. If you cannot produce troops to replace your losses, this fight against GK will be short and VERY one sided.

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