Book 2 - Text Updates 047

[wrecan]

Where are you getting the idea that his loyalty was "never on solid ground to begin with"?

Caesar's "airy-voiced impression of their sovereign was just barely on the respectful side." This is the turn right after Gobwin Knob and he's already "barely on the respectful side". Don hasn't even decided to pop an heir. At this point, Caesar is the heir, the only heir, and has no reason to think Don is in any way displeased with him. He's the Chief Warlord of TV and he just failed Don King's command to get Stanley. One would think Caesar would maybe feel... remorse for failing? Maybe sympathy for the plight they are now in? No. He is acting contemptuously of his king in hearing range of the other warlords, and in range of a non-TV (Jillian).

And two turns later, Caesar strides through the palace, says some "terse words" to Don and then leaves abruptly, while the other warlords kiss Don King's ring, go on bended knee, etc.

That doesn't sound like Loyalty that's on solid ground to me.

Currently TV seems to be on a defensive footing and losing ground; you don't have to be a bubble kingdom to be surrounded on most sides by allies, enjoying good productive output and in the process of delivering the finishing blow to the one side that wouldn't fall into line. e.g. Life in Spacerock during Book 1, or people staying at home in Gobwin Knob itself at the moment, are technically in a state of war but the conflict isn't being perceived as a direct threat to life and limb in the same way as TV's current situation.

What's TV's current situation? It's not directly involved in the war with Gobwin Knob. For all we know, GK will take out Haggar and Carpool before going after TV. TV's situation is that Carpool currently has the upper hand in their turf war, and Don blew a lot of Schmuckers on Jillian and wanted to do the same for Jetstone.

Life and limb? Not yet. Only because we happen to know that GK is the real threat -- something Caesar and the other TV warlords don't really seem to understand.

So, if this the best time to be changing philosophy? Maybe not. Was lending money to Jetstone a bad idea. Most definitely. But I don't think Don King thought he'd have a better time.

He first came up with the idea 40 turns after the volcano. 14 turns later, he decides pop a new heir. It's been 14 turns since that point, and the heir still isn't popped. This is a long term decision. When Queen Bea dies -- spurring Don to pop an heir, things were as peaceful as TV had ever had it. It was only since then that Carpool starting getting aggressive. Don's not going to abandon the plan now (especially since the plan, in part, is living up to his Noble lineage, which involves all sorts of self-sacrificing tendencies). It would set him back 28 turns at least, and while TV might survive that, I don't think Don thinks he's got another 28 turns left in him.

[wrecan]

Everyone here supporting Don fails to address the point that even with ownership of Spacerock, Jetstone has not been able to pay their upkeep the past several turns.

I'm explaining him, not supporting him. Don King is trying to reinvigorate nobility so they will stand up to GK. I think he thinks TV is toast no matter what he does. What he wants is a noble heir who will inspire people around him to act nobly. That's Don King's counter to Parson's ruthless efficiency. He was inspired by Queen Bea's sacrifice. That, to him, is the epitome of nobility. Bea inspired him to be a nobleman again. In part, Don King's reborn respect for nobility is inspiring Slately to stop acting so cowardly. Maybe their example will inspire other nobles to stop acting selfishly and act in the interest of all, like Don believes their Titanic Mandate was supposed to do. Maybe Sofa King, King Dickie of Haggar, and others, will realize the threat of Toolism and put aside their differences. That's his game plan. I happen to think it to be foolhardy, but it is noble.

Don King is no longer acting in the best interest of his Side. He's acting what he perceives to be the best interest of Erf.

[MichaelR138]

Where are you getting the idea that his loyalty was "never on solid ground to begin with"?

Caesar's "airy-voiced impression of their sovereign was just barely on the respectful side." This is the turn right after Gobwin Knob and he's already "barely on the respectful side". Don hasn't even decided to pop an heir. At this point, Caesar is the heir, the only heir, and has no reason to think Don is in any way displeased with him. He's the Chief Warlord of TV and he just failed Don King's command to get Stanley. One would think Caesar would maybe feel... remorse for failing? Maybe sympathy for the plight they are now in? No. He is acting contemptuously of his king in hearing range of the other warlords, and in range of a non-TV (Jillian).

And two turns later, Caesar strides through the palace, says some "terse words" to Don and then leaves abruptly, while the other warlords kiss Don King's ring, go on bended knee, etc.

That doesn't sound like Loyalty that's on solid ground to me.

Currently TV seems to be on a defensive footing and losing ground; you don't have to be a bubble kingdom to be surrounded on most sides by allies, enjoying good productive output and in the process of delivering the finishing blow to the one side that wouldn't fall into line. e.g. Life in Spacerock during Book 1, or people staying at home in Gobwin Knob itself at the moment, are technically in a state of war but the conflict isn't being perceived as a direct threat to life and limb in the same way as TV's current situation.

What's TV's current situation? It's not directly involved in the war with Gobwin Knob. For all we know, GK will take out Haggar and Carpool before going after TV. TV's situation is that Carpool currently has the upper hand in their turf war, and Don blew a lot of Schmuckers on Jillian and wanted to do the same for Jetstone.

Life and limb? Not yet. Only because we happen to know that GK is the real threat -- something Caesar and the other TV warlords don't really seem to understand.

So, if this the best time to be changing philosophy? Maybe not. Was lending money to Jetstone a bad idea. Most definitely. But I don't think Don King thought he'd have a better time.

He first came up with the idea 40 turns after the volcano. 14 turns later, he decides pop a new heir. It's been 14 turns since that point, and the heir still isn't popped. This is a long term decision. When Queen Bea dies -- spurring Don to pop an heir, things were as peaceful as TV had ever had it. It was only since then that Carpool starting getting aggressive. Don's not going to abandon the plan now (especially since the plan, in part, is living up to his Noble lineage, which involves all sorts of self-sacrificing tendencies). It would set him back 28 turns at least, and while TV might survive that, I don't think Don thinks he's got another 28 turns left in him.

Huge stretch there on saying immitating Don King abotu somethign he disagreed with in a conversation wthe a couple of other warlords is being dis-loyal. That is like saying if you have ever said anything disparagiing about your spouse to one of your buddies you are being unfaithful. It is silly on its face IMO.

Also, it has been over 100 turns since the volcano blew I believe, so he has more invested in that Royal heir then your initial calculations. Neither here nor there, just clarifying.
Michael

[wrecan]

Huge stretch there on saying immitating Don King abotu somethign he disagreed with in a conversation wthe a couple of other warlords is being dis-loyal.

I didn't say he was disloyal. I said it was on shaky ground. And it is. And it's not the imitation, but the tone he took. It wasn't "flattering" or "respectful". It was "barely on the respectful side". Rob made a point of showing how obsequious all the warlords were to Don King, and that Caesar was pointedly not. Rob made a point of having Caesar mock Don King in the presence of Jillian and the other warlords in a situation where you would have thought that inappropriate.

In the very same intermission where Caesar mocks Don King, Vinny also discusses his disagreement with the Don over his handling of Carpool. But Vinny keeps his thoughts to himself. That is a specific contrast to the way Caesar handles things. This is no accident; it's in the very same intermission. Vinny (who outranks Caesar in nobility, but is subordinate to him as a warlord) acts with discretion -- Caesar does not. That's exactly what DK is imagining.

Also, it has been over 100 turns since the volcano blew I believe, so he has more invested in that Royal heir then your initial calculations.

I linked the comic where it was revealed by Bunny to Caesar that Don had just begun to pop an heir. That was 14 turns ago. And it was 28 turns ago that Queen Bea died, which solidified Don King's resolve to make changes. But Don King had been contemplating doing this only 3 turns after the volcano. I bet he now wishes he had started this sooner.

(I suspect, by the way, that the Carpudlian offensive was triggered by the fact that they discovered TV was popping an heir, which made them suspect weakness and/or dissension in the ranks. That's just speculation though.)

[atalex]

Where are you getting the idea that his loyalty was "never on solid ground to begin with"?

Caesar's "airy-voiced impression of their sovereign was just barely on the respectful side." This is the turn right after Gobwin Knob and he's already "barely on the respectful side". Don hasn't even decided to pop an heir. At this point, Caesar is the heir, the only heir, and has no reason to think Don is in any way displeased with him. He's the Chief Warlord of TV and he just failed Don King's command to get Stanley. One would think Caesar would maybe feel... remorse for failing? Maybe sympathy for the plight they are now in? No. He is acting contemptuously of his king in hearing range of the other warlords, and in range of a non-TV (Jillian).

And two turns later, Caesar strides through the palace, says some "terse words" to Don and then leaves abruptly, while the other warlords kiss Don King's ring, go on bended knee, etc.

That doesn't sound like Loyalty that's on solid ground to me.

In his defense, Caesar favored seizing Faq's three cities at absolutely not cost to TV, a move that would have considerably improved their balance sheet. He was instead ordered to turn those cities over to "the Wack from Faq" and, moreover, treat her with considerable respect that, in is opinion, she did not deserve. Nothing that has happened since has improved his opinion of Jillian in any way, which makes Don's fawning over her even more incomprehensible and infuriating. Hell, I still don't know what happened to turn Don into such a stauch royalist since it obviously happened before Bea's death.

[atalex]

Everyone here supporting Don fails to address the point that even with ownership of Spacerock, Jetstone has not been able to pay their upkeep the past several turns.

I'm explaining him, not supporting him. Don King is trying to reinvigorate nobility so they will stand up to GK. I think he thinks TV is toast no matter what he does. What he wants is a noble heir who will inspire people around him to act nobly. That's Don King's counter to Parson's ruthless efficiency. He was inspired by Queen Bea's sacrifice. That, to him, is the epitome of nobility. Bea inspired him to be a nobleman again. In part, Don King's reborn respect for nobility is inspiring Slately to stop acting so cowardly. Maybe their example will inspire other nobles to stop acting selfishly and act in the interest of all, like Don believes their Titanic Mandate was supposed to do. Maybe Sofa King, King Dickie of Haggar, and others, will realize the threat of Toolism and put aside their differences. That's his game plan. I happen to think it to be foolhardy, but it is noble.

Don King is no longer acting in the best interest of his Side. He's acting what he perceives to be the best interest of Erf.

The best interest of Erf from a royalist perspective. Pardon my egalitarianism, but I see nothing in royalism that makes it superior to toolism. Whether your leader is Slately or Stanley, you still a diminutive idiot who has been raised to supreme executive power largely through a lucky break (circumstances of birth in Slately's case; attunement in Stanley's. Is there any meaningful difference between how Overlord Stanley runs his domain and how any King or Queen runs a royalist one? Do the royalists have any moral grounds for holding themselves as superior to toolists other than their rank bigotry against the commoner Stanley becoming "a mouse who hunts wolves" as Don condescendingly put it?

[ftl]

Where are you getting the idea that his loyalty was "never on solid ground to begin with"?

Caesar's "airy-voiced impression of their sovereign was just barely on the respectful side." This is the turn right after Gobwin Knob and he's already "barely on the respectful side". Don hasn't even decided to pop an heir. At this point, Caesar is the heir, the only heir, and has no reason to think Don is in any way displeased with him. He's the Chief Warlord of TV and he just failed Don King's command to get Stanley. One would think Caesar would maybe feel... remorse for failing? Maybe sympathy for the plight they are now in? No. He is acting contemptuously of his king in hearing range of the other warlords, and in range of a non-TV (Jillian).

And two turns later, Caesar strides through the palace, says some "terse words" to Don and then leaves abruptly, while the other warlords kiss Don King's ring, go on bended knee, etc.

That doesn't sound like Loyalty that's on solid ground to me.

To me, it sounded like he's always been terse and straightforward. I don't think, at the time, there was any real question of him disobeying the order and going to attack Carpool, or of trying a coup, or anything. He's just not a very respectful person in general.

I suppose I get my impression in part from http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_Text_16 . Don says

Caesar had made a lot of things clear, including why a Royal heir was necessary. Caesar had Duty and Loyalty in abundance, but he lacked the subtlety and finesse that sitting upon the throne called for. Shame, but what could you do? At least having a blind spot for subtlety made him easy to deal with most of the time.

That was Don's impression of Caesar - he's got duty and loyalty, but no subtlety. He says what he thinks and either doesn't know or doesn't care about the politics of it.

What I've seen is at least consistent with that picture, in my mind. Yeah, Caesar shows no respect, and has no appreciation for the fact that getting a bunch of warlords to stand up against their ruler's orders is half of a coup, and so on. But he has the Side's best interests in mind, and the disobeying was because he honestly believed that making that loan would ruin their side.

I suppose I can definitely see how it could be interpreted the other way around - maybe Don was straight-up wrong about Caesar's Loyalty. That's certainly possible - Don's made some questionable decisions. But everything is also consistent with the loyal-but-not-subtle picture.

[Oberon]

Caesar's "airy-voiced impression of their sovereign was just barely on the respectful side."
[...]
He is acting contemptuously of his king in hearing range of the other warlords, and in range of a non-TV (Jillian).
[...]
And two turns later, Caesar strides through the palace, says some "terse words" to Don and then leaves abruptly, while the other warlords kiss Don King's ring, go on bended knee, etc.

That doesn't sound like Loyalty that's on solid ground to me.

Nice post, you've reinforced my negative opinion of Caesar with solid citations from the strip, and not just wishful thinking or expounding your own pet theories.

Don King is no longer acting in the best interest of his Side. He's acting what he perceives to be the best interest of Erf.

Here's where we'll disagree. Don admired Bea for doing what she did, but as far as I recall he hasn't expressed any desire to follow her example. I think Don wants to end GK, and saw the FAQ gambit as the means to that end. And that gambit, by every estimation, accomplished what it was sent to do, even if Jillian herself didn't engage. No one thought the GK forces stood a chance, and so it is fair to say that Jillian did what she was sent to do, even if she didn't follow the letter of the plan: She ended the GK turn (also not apart of the plan, to be fair and balance the books) and left the GK forces in a no-win situation, everyone was certain that they were going to be wiped out by Jetstone.

TV pointed a FAQ gun at GK and pulled the trigger. The bullet only wounded and didn't kill, but the wound appeared to be fatal to everyone observing. Duncan, Jillian, Don, Tram, Slately, and I think even a few minor warlords and casters, everyone (excepting Charlie, who never explained "how" but just seemed to have learned a great deal of fear and respect for Parson after losing his chance at the 'pliers, the bracer, and Parson himself after foolishly ending turn at GK) who made an assessment of GKs odds came to the same conclusion: the GK expeditionary force was as sure as croaked. Duncan even told Jillian that if Jetstone lost to the GK forces that Jetstone deserved to be ended, and it was implied that he meant that the fight was such a sure thing that only a total imbecile could have snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory.

Huge stretch there on saying immitating Don King abotu somethign he disagreed with in a conversation wthe a couple of other warlords is being dis-loyal. That is like saying if you have ever said anything disparagiing about your spouse to one of your buddies you are being unfaithful. It is silly on its face IMO.

When you change the circumstances, it's no surprise that you're able to arrive at a different conclusion. Let's keep the situation the same: If you have ever said anything disparaging about your spouse to one of your buddies you are being disloyal. The same word, not morphing into unfaithful, as there is a world of difference there. And yes, if you disparage or exhibit a lack of respect to your spouse or your leader in front of others, you are by definition acting disloyally.

[Squishalot]

Caesar's "airy-voiced impression of their sovereign was just barely on the respectful side."
[...]
He is acting contemptuously of his king in hearing range of the other warlords, and in range of a non-TV (Jillian).
[...]
And two turns later, Caesar strides through the palace, says some "terse words" to Don and then leaves abruptly, while the other warlords kiss Don King's ring, go on bended knee, etc.

That doesn't sound like Loyalty that's on solid ground to me.

Nice post, you've reinforced my negative opinion of Caesar with solid citations from the strip, and not just wishful thinking or expounding your own pet theories.

Actually, no. That's not a clear picture of who Caesar the CW was prior to the whole "Royal" thing happening. His attitude only started changing when the orders came to bring 'Princess Zamussels' back to Transylvito.

Don's idea that royalty is important obviously peeved him off, and the part about terse words to Don in the palace is obviously because he disagrees with Don's strategy of ceding Faq back to Jillian. I think that Don's assessment of Caesar's 'Duty and Loyalty in abundance' is more telling than his disagreement of Don's strategic decisions.

[Chit Rule Railroad]

Everyone here supporting Don fails to address the point that even with ownership of Spacerock, Jetstone has not been able to pay their upkeep the past several turns. Now we take away their best city, and add the burden of paying back this large loan in short time with a heavy interest rate and I do not see how JS can do that AND maintain the fight against GK over that 9 turn period. If you cannot produce troops to replace your losses, this fight against GK will be short and VERY one sided.

I'm not aware of any evidence that popping troops in cities costs schmuckers, and all the troops JS has lost at SR certainly saves on upkeep. The upkeep they save could easily exceed the revenue they're losing from SR and the cities Jillian is taking.

The best interest of Erf from a royalist perspective. Pardon my egalitarianism, but I see nothing in royalism that makes it superior to toolism. Whether your leader is Slately or Stanley, you still a diminutive idiot who has been raised to supreme executive power largely through a lucky break (circumstances of birth in Slately's case; attunement in Stanley's. Is there any meaningful difference between how Overlord Stanley runs his domain and how any King or Queen runs a royalist one? Do the royalists have any moral grounds for holding themselves as superior to toolists other than their rank bigotry against the commoner Stanley becoming "a mouse who hunts wolves" as Don condescendingly put it?

The near-inevitable reality of "Toolism" is not being a unit under Stanley, but being enslaved to Wanda in as creepy a fashion as an archon is enslaved to Charlie. Even units that begin serving GK un-decrypted are likely to be decrypted eventually.

[udat]

Setting aside the casters (as they seem more autonomous than most) aren't all units in Erfworld controlled in as "creepy" a manner as Wanda controls the decrypted and Charlie controls his Archons?

Edit: punctuation.

[Smoker]

Royalty are inherently "better" than other units because they level faster and have slightly better stats.

That doesn't have much to do with being Rulers, though. For example, we haven't heard that Royal cities produce more revenue, or better units, or anything else related to rulership.

Having said that, the ideas of honour and nobility is something that gives them a certain claim to these positions. If the Royals always fight fair, never break parley and treat their prisoners with respect, then that is something that makes them perfect candidates (but not the only candidates) for rulers. Unfortunately we have some lovely examples of Royal units displaying decidedly non-royal conduct.

And maybe that's where its at with Don. As much as I agree with Oberon that Don is the type of character that must have a plan, its possible that he's just trying his best to live up to his Royal standards (which have thus far been abandoned) and if he's going to croak, by Titans he'll do it like a Royal should.

A born-again Royal, if you like.

The only way I'd be halfway happy with this, is if Don can come out on top. Maybe his new found Royalism will find him important allies, or he will actually croak, but will become a martyr and other sides will flock to his example.

Ultimately, Don is too cool. I cant handle the thought of him being a failure. If there is any possibility that he's actually a genius, I shall cling to it out of loyalty until it is proven impossible. So for now, FAQ was a marvellous military decision, Carpool cannot possibly be as bad as Caesar thinks, and Don has a really good reason for not bringing all the warlords in on his wonderful plans which will soon come to fruition and have awesome results.

I fear an intervention.

[Smoker]

Setting aside the casters (as they seem more autonomous than most) aren't all units in Erfworld controlled in as "creepy" a manner as Wanda controls the decrypted and Charlie controls his Archons?

Edit: punctuation.

Not really. The 'pliers have made all the decrypted feel as if they are somehow blessed by the titans, and the Archons (which may or may not be a product of the 'dish) seem to hang out for thinkagrams from Charlie like he was some kind of drug.

Maggie certainly doesn't behave like this towards Stanley, for example. Nor does Caesar towards Don, not even Duncan towards Jillian.

Even the Z-twoll seems mostly indifferent towards Stanley, and he's not even a warlord.

[Smoker]

On reflection, its quite interesting to see the difference between the attitudes of the archons and the decrypted. If we assume that the archons are a product of the 'dish, then we see the 'tools granted units seem to take on the attitude of their attuned.

The archons and decrypted both have a creepy brand of devotion to their leader, but the archons' is much more of a business-like relationship while the decrypted have a religious ferver, completely in line with the pre-existing sentiments of the weilder (I assume Charlie was always as he is, and not somehow changed by the dish.)

So a decrypted unit like Ossomer might be able to figure out the spell he's under (the term "spell" used loosely) if he were to speak to an archon.

Likewise, decrypted archons might have the brain power to figure out for themselves that if they were not Titanicly relevent prior to decryption, then perhaps they, having always been a product of the 'tools, are still not? It would be interesting to get inside one's head. *ahem*textupdatepleaserob*ahem*

If only Ossomer was in a location that allowed him some exposure to an Archon....

Also, by the same thinking, maybe dwagons are considerate and loving creatures when not tamed by Stanley, and thereafter infected with little-man syndrome?

[DevilDan]

Not to diss Ossomer, but I wonder what Ansom's thoughts are at the moment.

[splexis]

Is it just me, or does this text update imply that Ossomer is going to challenge Slately to single combat?

[teratorn]

On reflection, its quite interesting to see the difference between the attitudes of the archons and the decrypted. If we assume that the archons are a product of the 'dish, then we see the 'tools granted units seem to take on the attitude of their attuned.

Archons are not a product of the dish. Cities without the dish can pop them. Even for Charlie they pop from the city's queue line and not from the dish.

[Smoker]

On reflection, its quite interesting to see the difference between the attitudes of the archons and the decrypted. If we assume that the archons are a product of the 'dish, then we see the 'tools granted units seem to take on the attitude of their attuned.

Archons are not a product of the dish. Cities without the dish can pop them. Even for Charlie they pop from the city's queue line and not from the dish.

I'm not saying they definitely are from the dish (heck even the archons themselves dont know) but look at it this way:

Dwagons can be tamed by the 'hammer, and also popped in cities.
Dwagons seem to be particularly loyal to Stanley

"We'd gain a dwagon or two every turn. Units that answer to that," said Parson, pointing to the Arkenhammer on the desk.

Decrypted can be created by the corpses of units that were popped in cities.
Decrypted seem to be particularly loyal to Wanda. (See: Ansom being prevented from talking to Stanley)

Archons pop faster for Charlie than for other cities, this may or may not be a function of the dish.
Archons seem to be wildly obsessed with Charlie.

Hilary missed Charlie more than she ever could have said. It meant so much to know she could call him any time (though of course, she only did so on business). Being cut off, even for a turn, left her with an ache in her chest.

So really, none of the units pop from the tools. The 'hammer allows instant date-a-mancy upon a feral unit, the 'pliers allow unlimited and improved croakamancy on already popped units, and the 'dish (if you entertain the theory) offers constant turnamancy on archons.

So its not canon that archons are absolutely definitely linked to the 'dish in the same way that dwagons and decrypted are linked to the 'hammer and 'pliers, but it would fit very nicely. Therefore, its not a crazybad idea to explore other theories or make comparisons that assume this is true.

[Oberon]

That's [Caesar being openly disloyal to Don in front of Jillian, other TV warlords and casterts, and Don himself] not a clear picture of who Caesar the CW was prior to the whole "Royal" thing happening. His attitude only started changing when the orders came to bring 'Princess Zamussels' back to Transylvito.

Don's idea that royalty is important obviously peeved him off, and the part about terse words to Don in the palace is obviously because he disagrees with Don's strategy of ceding Faq back to Jillian.

I don't think "only started changing when" matters. What matters is that the change has occurred. It was many turns ago, if timing matters, which it doesn't. If the example stood alone, we might be able to make allowances for Caesar's dislike for Jillian, or some other consideration might be made for the circumstances. But it is far from a stand alone event, it is instead the definition of Caesar's behavior.

I think that Don's assessment of Caesar's 'Duty and Loyalty in abundance' is more telling than his disagreement of Don's strategic decisions.

Well, if you really feel that Don's estimation of unknowable stats makes things so, I can understand your position on Don's estimation of Caesar. But it just cannot be so, Don is basing his feelings on their long standing relationship, Caesar's position as CWL and heir, and other similar subjective judgements. Because with duty and loyalty, there can be no objective judgement. Don said in essence "Caesar has two things in abundance which I cannot see or measure." Riiiight....

[Bilgor]

So really, none of the units pop from the tools.

Pigeons do. Stanley just hasn't tried to use them for anything.