Book 2 – Text Updates 049

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby Rizban » Mon May 23, 2011 3:15 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:Oh c'mon give {Stanley} a break. Yes he isn't perfect, but his side is still standing and powerfull, so he's doing something right.

Actually, let's compare Stanley with the other rulers out there shall we?

Economics

Stanley: takes care to don't waste money needlessly. Makes sure to keep a fat treasury for hard times, wich comes in handy for hiring supreme warlords, mass promotion of heavies, scrolls for the casters and other essential stuff. Even when cornered against the wall, Stanley still had quite a good chunk of pocket change.


Meh, it depends. The other leaders in your analysis don't fare well, but miserliness is not always better than profligacy (yeah I looked those up on wiktionary).

The ur-example is RTSs (bear with me for a moment). In Starcraft (1), having more money than needed for one command structure was often a bad idea- it meant you weren't churning out enough units/upgrades. Part of this logic applies to TBS games, or worlds with TBS-like physics, as long as one simple condition applies: there are limits to how much you can build/pop/buy in one turn. Therefore, if you cannot spend your entire massive treasury all at once, it doesn't make sense to hoard too much, then find out that you can recruit 1000 Archons but oops, they'll be ready in 5 turns whereas the enemy has enough forces at your door to croak you now.

Granted, a lot of things seem to be "instant" in Erfworld (exceptions: heirs, Archons (?) and possibly some other high-tier units require more turns).

Anyway. The point is that some of Stanley's behaviours (hoarding Schmuckers, fleeing GK) turned out to be beneficial ... but not necessarily because Stanley deliberately looked for an optimal solution to a problem and stumbled upon said policies. It was not a calculated decision to store Schmuckers, I believe, nor was the reason for the flight from GK anything other than own-ass-saving and GK be damned.

Where Stanley is lucky is in having subordinates that can transform his (ill-considered?) decisions into opportunities.
Just because it wasn't rationally thought out and optimized doesn't mean that he's a bad leader for doing the right thing out of instinct. It's obvious that he has good qualities that his side needs, or he would never have been promoted to heir in the first place.

gazes_also wrote:Stanley seems quite capable of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. From his point of view ordering Parson not to enter JS' portal or to return to GK might seem like a good idea right now to avoid losing a second CW in one day.

Key point that comes out in this update; things are going seriously wrong in TMK despite Maggie and the GM's attempts to intervene and it is not something they anticipated. Sounds like Parson's pursuer has made his move in TMK and is not just following him through the portal.

About Stanley's wealth: even before the volcano GK was a source of gems and Sizemore made them easier to reach after the volcano; a large proportion of his army have no upkeep; and the dwagons are caught in the wild, not popped, so only have upkeep and no production cost. High income, low overhead, that's what keeps Stanley's treasury full. The other major cost he has so far spared himself - no heir.
Dwagons can be popped and are constantly popped. A blue was popped in GK the turn immediately after the volcano went up.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby Saladman » Mon May 23, 2011 3:44 pm

Well this could, and likely will, go very poorly.

But I'm interested to see Stanley making an effort. Its not my thought, but I've seen it before and come around to the view, that Stanley must have been competent once at Piking and Warlording or he wouldn't have got promoted. He's just no good as a Ruler, and presumably not too sophisticated as a Chief Warlord. But it'd be interesting to see him more in his own element.

Though again, the path to him getting there, and being a ruler at the same time, doesn't look good for Gobwin Knob or its other principals.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby wykstrad » Mon May 23, 2011 4:17 pm

Berserkas wrote:
looked longingly at the doorway, which led to a parapet overlooking the city and was the nearest exit from the larder area. Then he sighed, nodded silently, and shrugged his huge shoulders.


He obviously wants to fight rather than sit in the larder.


Haha, close, but I think it's that "nearest exit from the larder" is the key phrase here. He may or may not have gotten around to wishing he could be in a battle, but he definitely doesn't want to be around Stanley.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby Housellama » Mon May 23, 2011 4:53 pm

kagato23 wrote:I think your overthinkingthis

Zhopa is terrified of Spending time with Lord Staneley. Note his looking longingly at an escape route, and how nervous he has been up till now.

And now Stanley is asking him weird questions he lacks the cognitive ability to answer quickly. Putting him on the spot and making him more nervous.

And somehow, he answered in ways that mean now he has to stick by this man ALL THE TIME.

Facebread time. He's not sure how, but Zhopa knows he screwed up big.


Okay, after re-reading the update with this in mind and going back and rereading the other larder updates, this makes TOTAL sense. Zhopa's not really DUMB. Yeah, he's not smart, but he's not stupid either. He's a Twoll. He's there to make stuff. Food, mainly. That's what he was popped to do. Not make nice with his superiors. His Special is Fabrication, not Etiquette. He really doesn't have the talents to deal with his Ruler like this.

And now his Ruler, Stanley the Socially Handicapable, promotes him to Personal Lackey? Yeah, I'd be looking at the nearest ledge too. But Duty and Loyalty are practically unbreakable in Zhopa's case, so instead he does the only thing he can do.

Facebread.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby Occasional Sage » Mon May 23, 2011 5:21 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
mmooneybsa wrote:He had over 500,000 Schmuckers stored at the beginning of Book 1. Which is the largest amount any side has had mentioned so far.


To which I'll add, Wanda only convinced him to give those 500K Schmuckers away by telling him the Treasury could not be taken along in case of a hasty retreat.

hmmm. Except maybe for enough to fill his purse when he became a barbarian? Jillian has told us that's a very limited amount, which may explain the three-knight-limit when he bailed on GK.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby wrecan » Mon May 23, 2011 5:25 pm

He wasn't planning on becoming a barbarian. He was planning on founding a new capital in FAQ.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby Saladman » Mon May 23, 2011 5:45 pm

wrecan wrote:He wasn't planning on becoming a barbarian. He was planning on founding a new capital in FAQ.


But he was expecting to go barbarian on the way there; he expected to lose his capital site/last city.

And incidentally, if he did have any say under those circumstances, which I doubt, letting himself go barbarian before claiming FAQ had a certain cunning to it. It might have saved the RCC looking around and noticing Gobwin Knob the side was still kicking around somewhere and making further inquiries.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby twhitt » Mon May 23, 2011 6:48 pm

Saladman wrote:But he was expecting to go barbarian on the way there; he expected to lose his capital site/last city.

And incidentally, if he did have any say under those circumstances, which I doubt, letting himself go barbarian before claiming FAQ had a certain cunning to it. It might have saved the RCC looking around and noticing Gobwin Knob the side was still kicking around somewhere and making further inquiries.

He had two options, assuming he had the move to get to the FAQ capital site in one turn.

He could have broken through the blockade, reached the capital site, and ended turn. GK would fall, he would become Barbarian, and early on the next turn he could found a new side at the capital site.

Alternatively, he could have broken through the blockade, reached the capital site, founded a city, and maybe even designated this as his capital, then ended turn. GK the city would fall, GK the side would probably have persisted (book 2 strongly suggests that Jetstone the side will not end if the ruler is alive and the side has a city on another capital site), and Stanly would have been free to designate the new city at FAQ's site as his capital, if he hadn't done so before.

Of these, the second one had the greatest possibility of saving his treasury, but mechanics are far from clear. As far as whether RCC would have been able to tell that the side had ended, it's very difficult to make any reasonable prediction. GK had essentially no field units that could be observed to depop, so there wouldn't be much evidence there. They would likely have known that they didn't croak Stanley, at any rate, and would probably have had to resolve that problem eventually.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby Musrum » Mon May 23, 2011 11:55 pm

If Slately's plan works (Tram to heir then croak) won't Jetstone have their Ruler and Chief Warlord unconscious? Who will end their turn?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby kreszantas » Tue May 24, 2011 2:16 am

Musrum wrote:If Slately's plan works (Tram to heir then croak) won't Jetstone have their Ruler and Chief Warlord unconscious? Who will end their turn?


there must be some sort of plotarmor for things such as this... I would suspect that is part of the hijinx Rob is setting us up for.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby BakaGrappler » Tue May 24, 2011 3:11 am

I think Stanley has given us a very, VERY good point in this Text update that will very soon become important. Slately's plan of taking out the Archons is dependent on getting Ossomer out of the way, which the casters have unanimously agreed is just barely doable. Ossomer is saying "If the Titans will it, I will be captured or croaked again this turn." That is basically a fatalistic push towards causing some event to happen to prevent the worst from befalling Ossomer. He will fight as much as he can for it is duty.

Now, what will happen when Parson's Chief Warlord Bonus suddenly pops up on Ossomer while he's fighting his father and the others?

We all know Hamster's appearance in Jetstone will change things, but will his presence in the Hex alone end up causing things to change? This is one of those turns that decides all that is to come later.

And now we have an injured Tramennis, who is in need of a Healomancer. I wonder if there are any Healomancy scrolls in the military in Spacerock, or if Slately will end up breaking off his own little Last Stand to send Pierce to his son.

This turn decides all that will come later.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby ftl » Tue May 24, 2011 3:22 am

BakaGrappler wrote: I wonder if there are any Healomancy scrolls in the military in Spacerock, or if Slately will end up breaking off his own little Last Stand to send Pierce to his son.


There probably are scrolls, but a caster still has to be there to cast a scroll - as far as we've seen, it still takes casters to use scrolls, warlords can't. So Slately will have to split off at least some caster; it seems simpler to just tell the Healomancer to do it rather than bringing up a scroll for some other caster to use.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby wykstrad » Tue May 24, 2011 5:04 am

This may already have been answered, but is Zhopa supposed to look like Zangief from Street Fighter II? And if so, why is his name Zhopa?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Tue May 24, 2011 6:33 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
mmooneybsa wrote:He had over 500,000 Schmuckers stored at the beginning of Book 1. Which is the largest amount any side has had mentioned so far.


To which I'll add, Wanda only convinced him to give those 500K Schmuckers away by telling him the Treasury could not be taken along in case of a hasty retreat.

And Stanley acepted her advice didn't he? And still managed to get a discout out of it!

Compare with Don that needed his full leadership corpses to threaten a revolution to stop him from bankrupting his own side.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
gazes_also wrote:About Stanley's wealth: even before the volcano GK was a source of gems and Sizemore made them easier to reach after the volcano; a large proportion of his army have no upkeep; and the dwagons are caught in the wild, not popped, so only have upkeep and no production cost. High income, low overhead, that's what keeps Stanley's treasury full. The other major cost he has so far spared himself - no heir.


One wonders what other things Stanley might buy.

Scrolls from the MK, no go there. Apparently the MK is pissed with the Toolists, so yeah. However, we know Erfworld cities can produce Archons, and a few more of those may be useful. Or why not, Twolls or whatever it is that Stanley's cities can pop.


Eerr, he's already bought those. He has put GK in twoll production day and night. Also only a few rare cities in Erfworld can produce archons. Plus production of basic units cost no money, only city time.

Not to mention it was Stanley that decided to spend loads of money rebuilding the hobgobwin forces that proved essential on the last battle.

And then roughly 2/3 of GK's current current forces are now living since all of their new cities have been busy producing new troops all this time. Even Trems aknowledged that if the decrypted fell, GK would still have a pretty fearsome army. So that's a lot of upkeeps to pay.

Meanwhile other sides also have casters wich provide their own means of saving money. Don has a freaking moneymancer, and yet he manages to put his side at the verge of bankrupcy.

So yes, Stanley has been a quite good manager of his side.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue May 24, 2011 7:07 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:And Stanley acepted her advice didn't he? And still managed to get a discout out of it!


Certainly, as long as he has advisers that know how to get him relaxed, he has it made. I wouldn't think GK's policies are as much up to him as they are up to whoever those others are, that keep Stanley out of the loop.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby wrecan » Tue May 24, 2011 8:20 am

wykstrad wrote:This may already have been answered, but is Zhopa supposed to look like Zangief from Street Fighter II? And if so, why is his name Zhopa?

People aren't always named after who they look like. Isaac is named after Isaac Newton, but looks like Carl Sagan. Zhopa is a Russian (and impolite) term for buttocks. Twolls seem to have somewhat obscure but vulgar names (i.e., Bogroll).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby Radagast » Tue May 24, 2011 10:04 am

kreszantas wrote:
Musrum wrote:If Slately's plan works (Tram to heir then croak) won't Jetstone have their Ruler and Chief Warlord unconscious? Who will end their turn?


there must be some sort of plotarmor for things such as this... I would suspect that is part of the hijinx Rob is setting us up for.


It would be funny if their turn just auto-ended in such a case :p
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby Jinren » Tue May 24, 2011 11:15 am

Radagast wrote:
kreszantas wrote:
Musrum wrote:If Slately's plan works (Tram to heir then croak) won't Jetstone have their Ruler and Chief Warlord unconscious? Who will end their turn?


there must be some sort of plotarmor for things such as this... I would suspect that is part of the hijinx Rob is setting us up for.


It would be funny if their turn just auto-ended in such a case :p


Judging by how other things (e.g. autoattacking) work, it probably delegates to the next highest-ranking person with Leadership. Jetstone still has warlords (at least, nobody's actually said they're out of warlords as far as I can remember), and knights can also have Leadership if I recall correctly, so they should be good for a while in that respect.

That said: have we ever seen a Chief Warlord end a turn directly? Some people have discussed the implications of Ansom ordering the end of a turn in Book 1, but he could have technically been ordering someone to let Slately know he was done with the day's military activity and the turn could safely end when necessary. Hope I haven't forgotten a more obvious example.

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Stanley has been a quite good manager of his side


Increasingly I get the impression that Stanley's pretty competent at individual things (managing a side's production, rocking out, taming dwagons), but that one of his bigger flaws is that he can't multitask too well (and of course, either doesn't know it or doesn't want to know it); what ruined Gobwin Knob was trying to coordinate spending, military command, and whatever else he does, without enough delegation. If he were a lower-ranked warlord he'd probably make an excellent general-purpose addition to the team (people have been throwing "Peter Principle" around as a description of him for a while now).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby effataigus » Tue May 24, 2011 11:17 am

Random question:

If it took a foolamancer and a predictamancer working together to keep Faq from TV's notice, then how had TV missed discovering the ruins in the time that Jillian has been a barbarian? Mebbe it hasn't been that many turns, or perhaps TV rolled a fumble?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby the_tick_rules » Tue May 24, 2011 11:59 am

Maybe, or maybe since they had thought there was nothing there for so long they had already stopped going there long ago. I was about to say they may have found them but had no interest in them. But ruined cities are different than ruins in that ruined cities can be rebuilt, so odds are they would have taken the cities.
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