Book 2 – Text Updates 049

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby Freemage » Tue May 24, 2011 12:15 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote: One wonders what other things Stanley might buy.

Scrolls from the MK, no go there. Apparently the MK is pissed with the Toolists, so yeah.


If the MK is actively withholding basic services from one side in the fight, many traditions would consider that a violation of neutrality. Now, they might not be planning anymore "special deals", but the basic range of services (such as Healomancy scrolls) is probably something that's standardized for all sides.

If the MK's status as a neutral power is undermined as a result of Parson's antics, however, expect that to change rapidly.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue May 24, 2011 12:19 pm

What I'm seeing here is a side that is de facto not neutral, and is about to become officially hostile ASAP.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby holy_dwead » Tue May 24, 2011 2:10 pm

No one has commented on this, so I wanted to say that I got a big kick out of "Somewhere, a pigeon cooed." This is a play on a practically ancient literary trope: "Somewhere a dog barked."

Take a look at an essay regarding the expression in novels (caution: strong language).

http://www.slate.com/id/2256007/

Obviously, a cooing pigeon is the only logical alternative to the phrase when Stanley the Tool is in the room.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby joosy » Tue May 24, 2011 3:14 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:What I'm seeing here is a side that is de facto not neutral, and is about to become officially hostile ASAP.


Also note that there has been several mentions of potential conflict between magic factions in the Magic Kingdom but were either deemed to much of a risk or talked out of. (e.g. in the extra update in the Erfworld book, Maggie stops a potential struggle between the Thinkamancers and the Hippiemancers over Parson.) I wonder if there was a previous struggle in the Magic Kingdom that led to this truce/peace agreement or if it was popped into existence that way.

in any case, hopefully we will get to see some of each caster discipline in action.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby udat » Wed May 25, 2011 5:21 am

holy_dwead wrote:No one has commented on this, so I wanted to say that I got a big kick out of "Somewhere, a pigeon cooed." This is a play on a practically ancient literary trope: "Somewhere a dog barked."

Take a look at an essay regarding the expression in novels (caution: strong language).

http://www.slate.com/id/2256007/

Obviously, a cooing pigeon is the only logical alternative to the phrase when Stanley the Tool is in the room.


Hahahaha. I love this. I'm glad you pointed it out :)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby imany » Wed May 25, 2011 10:10 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:
Calemyr wrote: I don't know if this new enlightenment is a good thing or not, as Parson has observed before that Stanley is a master at getting in the way of his own goals.


Oh c'mon give the man a break. Yes he isn't perfect, but his side is still standing and powerfull, so he's doing something right.

Actually, let's compare Stanley with the other rulers out there shall we?


While I don't think Stanley is as bad as he might be made out to be, I don't think his side doing well is because of him.

Economics

Stanley: takes care to don't waste money needlessly. Makes sure to keep a fat treasury for hard times, wich comes in handy for hiring supreme warlords, mass promotion of heavies, scrolls for the casters and other essential stuff. Even when cornered against the wall, Stanley still had quite a good chunk of pocket change.


Stanley's treasury is currently full because Sizemore realized that GK was still full of gems. Stanley may have had 500 grand in his treasury prior to Parson's appearance in Erfworld, but he was also down to one city and his military had been largely decimated due to poor decision making.

Statley: Spends money like water on pretty structures and couriers. When cornered, finds himself bankrupt.


My understanding was that Slately's treasury was empty due to a prolonged war, not because of courtiers and pretty structures.

Don: Spends money like water on other sides. Unreliable unstable sides that give low chance of a profitable return. Almost bankrupted his own kingdom if not for his leadership corps steping in.


I'll give you that one, although Don's situation was more that it went from good to bad very quickly because of his dependence on results he couldn't control.

Jillian: Can barely afford basic services, needs constant supplies from other sides.


Yes, well, Jillian is... Jillian.

Command Under Pressure

Stanley: Knows when to run and when to fight. If he hadn't pulled out from GK when the coalition giant mob arrived, Hamster wouldn't be able to use the hax volcano (as stanley couldn't be pulled to the safety of the magic kingdom), and they would've lost. When ambushed by Transyvilto, quickly decided to break trough instead of fighting to the death.


Going to disagree that he had good command under pressure, and also going to disagree that ditching GK led directly to Parson's win. Stanley had been a Warlord previously, so he had combat experience and could make decisions to save his own life. However, Stanley's decision to punch through that stack resulted in his troops being decimated. It was Jack who saved him with Foolamancy, and that was totally luck based--if Jillian hadn't called his name, he would have still been out of commission and Stanley would have croaked.

Yes, Parson was able to use the hax volcano because he left, but if Stanley had stayed he may have had other options (stacked bonus dance fighting, for example? Or no, rocking out, which is better ;)). That win is purely attributable to Parson. Whether or not Stanley stayed is irrelevant to Parson's ability to come up with new tactics. Also, Stanley chose to leave almost all of his casters behind--he only took Jack, and didn't order any of them into the MK. No matter how you look at it, that's a stupid decision in leaving a city to fend for itself and planning to start a new side. Even if he was pissed at them, none of them were traitors, and casters are hard to replace.

Statley: When cornered, decides that suicide rush while bankrupting an ally is a good plan. Instead of one of his experienced warlords, puts in command a pretty diplomacy boy that shoots down his own troops and then runs screaming towards the enemy artillery geting knocked out.


Slately's decision regarding the suicide rush may not be a great plan, but it's not without reason. There has been no mention of any exceptional warlords in JS; the only warlords even mentioned have been Ossomer and Ansom. Additionally, Slately is a Royal who believes in Royalty--of course he's going to appoint another Royal. As far as Trammenis is concerned, you're trolling, right? So far, he's been shown to have the fastest reactions to Parson's moves.

Don: Puts himself into a pretty bad position by burning all his resources towards other side that its renowed for their unreliability and chaotic behaviour.


Jillian:
Has to rely on other sides to cover her ass.


True and true.


Natural Leadership


Stanley: Will you admit it or not, Stanley has loads of natural leadership. Every one of his subordinates is willing to fight to the last breath rather than even think about betrayng him. Both Jack and Wanda had multiple chances to surrender out of a hopeless situations but choosed to stand and fight for Stanley.


Multiple? Jack has only left GK twice and only had one actual opportunity to surrender. His skirmish with Jillian in Book 1 largely involved him being deranged and having to make decisions quickly; arguably Duty would have immediately compelled him to save Stanley. By the time he has his second brush with Jillian, he's developed a close relationship with Parson, as well as trust in his abilities. He says as much when Wanda asks him why he didn't defect. What does that have to do with Stanley?

As far as Wanda is concerned, it's been made very clear that she believes it's her destiny to help bring the Arkentools together. Jillian does not have an Arkentool. Stanley does. Enough said, but just to make my point clear, Wanda is loyal to Arkentools, which has little to do with Stanley's natural leadership.

Statley: Is seen as his side's simple accountant.

Don: his own leadership corps banded togheter to put a stop to his plans. Need I say more?

Jillian: Has to make extensive use of mind rape to get her troops to follow.


Man, as I continue to write this post, I'm more and more sure you're trolling, but I'm going to respond anyway. Slately is presented as someone who has only ever expected to sit on a throne and wear his crown, so yes, that's true. Don, however, is depicted as someone his people love and respect, who has recently (sine Bea's death) gone around the bend. If you're arguing natural leadership, off-screen, Don's prior leadership ability has been abundant. Jillian has never mind raped anyone, and you should probably revisit TVTropes so you remember what mind rape actually is. She has natural charisma that causes other characters to follow her, and some to fall in love with her.


Conclusion:
So ok Stanley has some communication problems. But he excells at battle instinct, knows how to get his subordinates unquestionable loyalty and makes sure to keep his side economically stable. His side is thus in a much better position now than either the two other sides we know in detail so far.


Erfworld's depiction of loyalty is strange, but I think arguing Stanley's people have 'unquestionable loyalty' to him personally is going a bit far. They are all loyal to their side, and it's arguable that's a result of Duty.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby effataigus » Wed May 25, 2011 10:42 am

imany wrote:Man, as I continue to write this post, I'm more and more sure you're trolling, but I'm going to respond anyway. Slately is presented as someone who has only ever expected to sit on a throne and wear his crown, so yes, that's true. Don, however, is depicted as someone his people love and respect, who has recently (sine Bea's death) gone around the bend. If you're arguing natural leadership, off-screen, Don's prior leadership ability has been abundant. Jillian has never mind raped anyone, and you should probably revisit TVTropes so you remember what mind rape actually is. She has natural charisma that causes other characters to follow her, and some to fall in love with her.

Erfworld's depiction of loyalty is strange, but I think arguing Stanley's people have 'unquestionable loyalty' to him personally is going a bit far. They are all loyal to their side, and it's arguable that's a result of Duty.


Hah, yes, it seemed to me that Olsecamo2_temp was arguing from a point of greater conviction than the he/she personally believed... if only to make a point. Personally, I'd rather have my side be managed by any of the other rulers in comic than Stanley (possibly not if the Arkentool came with him), and that is despite agreeing with most of the original post's criticisms of the other rulers! Stanely has had his clever moments, but they're rare.

Anyway, regarding your (imany) last couple of points:

Jillian mind rape is referring to the use of the turnamancer on Duncan (and later Ansom, and implied the captured GK units), I think. I haven't read the definition, but I can't imagine that falls outside of it. Regarding natural charisma, we've seen that make people fall in love with her, but I don't think we've seen it inspire anyone. In fact, I'm guessing that handful of orlies that died in the dwagons mouths would have really shined if they had gotten a kind word or two (kidding).

I also don't think it is fair to say that many people are loyal to GK (the side). Jack claims to be loyal to Parson, Maggie is part of a conspiracy (that she presumably hasn't told Stanley about), the decrypted seem loyal to Wanda, and Wanda is loyal to fate. Stanley has the dwagons, the troops popped under his command, and perhaps Parson, but that seems to be about it.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby imany » Wed May 25, 2011 11:13 am

effataigus wrote:Jillian mind rape is referring to the use of the turnamancer on Duncan (and later Ansom, and implied the captured GK units), I think. I haven't read the definition, but I can't imagine that falls outside of it. Regarding natural charisma, we've seen that make people fall in love with her, but I don't think we've seen it inspire anyone. In fact, I'm guessing that handful of orlies that died in the dwagons mouths would have really shined if they had gotten a kind word or two (kidding).

I also don't think it is fair to say that many people are loyal to GK (the side). Jack claims to be loyal to Parson, Maggie is part of a conspiracy (that she presumably hasn't told Stanley about), the decrypted seem loyal to Wanda, and Wanda is loyal to fate. Stanley has the dwagons, the troops popped under his command, and perhaps Parson, but that seems to be about it.


Jillian's use of a turnamancer isn't unusual in Erf, and I also would argue it isn't mind rape. The definition of mind rape is to horribly violate someone's mind, hence the use of the word 'rape' in the term. Turning a person may not be pleasant, but it isn't a matter of someone taking personal pleasure out of breaking someone's mind. Additionally, while Duncan turns, he isn't necessarily loyal; it's mentioned somewhere that turned units have low loyalty scores. On top of that, Duncan's personal justification for becoming loyal is Jillian's capture of him. While that was Charlie's plan, it doesn't change the fact that Duncan believes brilliant plans are a part of her ferocious personality. I should rephrase, however. Jillian currently does not have any specially mentioned characters on her side aside from Duncan. I'm not counting Vanna because Vanna appears to be a contractor, and I'm not counting Vinny because he's a TV denizen. It's mentioned she's popped a few warlords, but none of them have been named or given significant (if any) face time. Therefore, it's hard to say whether or not she's inspired anyone; my mentioning her natural charisma causes people to follow her is an assumption. Very little has been said about the actual status and members of her side.

I say that characters are loyal to their side, because it appears to be that more than Stanley specifically. They wish to preserve their side, each person justifies that his/her own way. It's arguable that since Stanley doesn't have an heir, he -is- his side, so naturally preservation of his life is important; perhaps in that regard, they are directly loyal to him. The justifications they use for preserving his life/their side, however, has little to do with respect or love for him personally.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby Occasional Sage » Wed May 25, 2011 11:32 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:What I'm seeing here is a side that is de facto not neutral, and is about to become officially hostile ASAP.


Except that two of the MK factions have powerful reasons to support GK: Marie and her Hippiemancers want to use him to break war, and the Great Minds are gunning for Charlie (who has launched a shadow war on Parson and by extension GK). That puts a lot of weight on the "status quo" side of the scale.

Given that, I wonder if the MK's hostility is at least partially feigned.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby effataigus » Wed May 25, 2011 2:01 pm

imany wrote:I say that characters are loyal to their side, because it appears to be that more than Stanley specifically. They wish to preserve their side, each person justifies that his/her own way. It's arguable that since Stanley doesn't have an heir, he -is- his side, so naturally preservation of his life is important; perhaps in that regard, they are directly loyal to him. The justifications they use for preserving his life/their side, however, has little to do with respect or love for him personally.


One of the biggest and most exciting questions for me right now is whether units are loyal to what they claim, or whether their claims are just hollow justifications for their magical compulsion to follow their ruler. We might find out soon!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby ftl » Wed May 25, 2011 2:08 pm

Well, thing is, "loyal to Fate" is entirely nebulous. Fate doesn't give commands or orders - "loyal to Fate" can mean absolutely anything. I'm not really sure how we might find out what units are loyal to, unless we get a direct rebellion of Wanda against Stanley.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby Aquillion » Wed May 25, 2011 4:29 pm

Occasional Sage wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:What I'm seeing here is a side that is de facto not neutral, and is about to become officially hostile ASAP.


Except that two of the MK factions have powerful reasons to support GK: Marie and her Hippiemancers want to use him to break war, and the Great Minds are gunning for Charlie (who has launched a shadow war on Parson and by extension GK). That puts a lot of weight on the "status quo" side of the scale.

Given that, I wonder if the MK's hostility is at least partially feigned.
Part of the problem is that we haven't really seen any important MK characters who are hostile to GK. We've seen general hostility and annoyance with Parson arriving there, but to the extent that we've seen important characters with clear influence in the MK, they've been more or less on Parson's side, or at least against Charlie. There hasn't really been a face to put on the other side.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Thu May 26, 2011 4:18 am

Freemage wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote: One wonders what other things Stanley might buy.

Scrolls from the MK, no go there. Apparently the MK is pissed with the Toolists, so yeah.


If the MK is actively withholding basic services from one side in the fight, many traditions would consider that a violation of neutrality. Now, they might not be planning anymore "special deals", but the basic range of services (such as Healomancy scrolls) is probably something that's standardized for all sides.


It seems a lot depends on what kind of "neutral" the MK is (or is perceived to be), as well as what kind of entity it is. I wouldn't call it a "truly" neutral entity. It isn't a side, more of a neutral ground populated by unemployed/retired mercenaries. It doesn't have a government, a ruler, a central authority etc and thus no official political/ethical/moral/diplomatic/etc policies or directions. I'd assume the casters and the factions there are largely free to work and provide services for, or refuse to work for, whoever they want.

The true basis of the neutrality, to me at least, appears to be more focused on the special abilities of the MK, not so much on who the casters are willing to work for. I'd only consider it violation of neutrality if there was a controlling power there that ruled no caster was to lend aid to GK or if there was some sort of large scale coordinated resistance to GK (or any side)from the caster community there (neither of which is the case).

Rizban wrote:Just because it wasn't rationally thought out and optimized doesn't mean that he's a bad leader for doing the right thing out of instinct. It's obvious that he has good qualities that his side needs, or he would never have been promoted to heir in the first place.


If it was the real world saying "Of course I have the good qualities that will benefit this empire, otherwise I wouldn't have been made heir" would likely inspire comparisons to all the individuals that were handed power (heirs) or gained power (revolutionaries for example) but were truly terrible leaders of men/nations/corporations etc. Of course in Erfworld it has a certain complexity added due to the whole "are the Titans/fate involved".

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Oh c'mon give the man a break. Yes he isn't perfect, but his side is still standing and powerfull, so he's doing something right.


Stanley's greatest strength as a ruler is that he rules some very capable individuals, plus two tools (if they didn't end up with the pliers there is no way they would have been able to advance so far so fast). Stanley's greatest weakness as a ruler is himself.

Actually, let's compare Stanley with the other rulers out there shall we?

Economics

Stanley: takes care to don't waste money needlessly. Makes sure to keep a fat treasury for hard times, which comes in handy for hiring supreme warlords, mass promotion of heavies, scrolls for the casters and other essential stuff. Even when cornered against the wall, Stanley still had quite a good chunk of pocket change.


Fiscal responsibility is a good thing, assuming it is actually responsible and not just hiding it in a whole. It certainly paid off that Stanley had those 500,000 available to get Parson, and he was super lucky later that his Volcano lair had so much hidden loot.

Statley: Spends money like water on pretty structures and couriers. When cornered, finds himself bankrupt.


Just now, after a long and very costly war. It is worth remembering that until very recently Jetstone was the biggest, fattest fish in the pond something they achieved and maintained for many turns without a volcano full of gems and a magic item that lets you have a massive army with no upkeep.

Don: Spends money like water on other sides. Unreliable unstable sides that give low chance of a profitable return. Almost bankrupted his own kingdom if not for his leadership corps steping in.


Again just at this point in time, after a long, costly war etc...

Jillian: Can barely afford basic services, needs constant supplies from other sides.


There wasn't much else she could do to change that. Any of the rulers would be in the same boat at the start. Now of course her actions have given Faq much more financial independence.

Command Under Pressure

Stanley: Knows when to run and when to fight. If he hadn't pulled out from GK when the coalition giant mob arrived, Hamster wouldn't be able to use the hax volcano (as stanley couldn't be pulled to the safety of the magic kingdom), and they would've lost. When ambushed by Transyvilto, quickly decided to break trough instead of fighting to the death.


If I remember rightly the swiftness with which GK lost all its cities, warlords, strength before TBfGK was largely down to Stanley, and of course the big bit there is "Hamster". And since then GK swift ascent is due to Parson, Ansom and Wanda with pliers.

Statley: When cornered, decides that suicide rush while bankrupting an ally is a good plan. Instead of one of his experienced warlords, puts in command a pretty diplomacy boy that shoots down his own troops and then runs screaming towards the enemy artillery geting knocked out.


I feel kind of silly now, you aren't being serious are you?

Jillian: Has to make extensive use of mind rape to get her troops to follow.


It's kind of weird, though I feel like saying "as opposed to GK who make extensive use of the plier's powers...". And I don't know if I would say extensive. All of Jillian's troops except Duncan she popped herself. And Duncan was turned, a seemingly valid tactic though I seem to remember discussion about lower loyalty through turning - while Duncan seems to be very happy.

Conclusion: So ok Stanley has some communication problems. But he excells at battle instinct, knows how to get his subordinates unquestionable loyalty and makes sure to keep his side economically stable. His side is thus in a much better position now than either the two other sides we know in detail so far.
[/quote][/quote]

It is doing very well. Of course one would ask if Parson were removed from the equation, or Wanda, how would Stanley go? Is GK destined to be the biggest and the baddest for as long as Jetstone was?
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby Oberon » Thu May 26, 2011 5:54 pm

Occasional Sage wrote:To which I'll add, Wanda only convinced him to give those 500K Schmuckers away by telling him the Treasury could not be taken along in case of a hasty retreat.
hmmm. Except maybe for enough to fill his purse when he became a barbarian? Jillian has told us that's a very limited amount, which may explain the three-knight-limit when he bailed on GK.
The barbarian purse doesn't begin to explain why Stanley didn't take along additional forces. Jillian, as a barbarian, maintained a disband order. Stanley could have taken multiples of the forces he did take and just disbanded those he could not support if and when he could not support him. Going lean had zero advantages, and is an unexplained logical flaw. Fridge logic, if you will.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby MarbitChow » Thu May 26, 2011 6:17 pm

Oberon wrote:The barbarian purse doesn't begin to explain why Stanley didn't take along additional forces. Stanley could have taken multiples of the forces he did take and just disbanded those he could not support if and when he could not support him. Going lean had zero advantages, and is an unexplained logical flaw.

You're not seriously attempting to apply logic to Stanley's decision-making process, are you? Are we reading the same book? :D
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby Occasional Sage » Thu May 26, 2011 6:23 pm

Oberon wrote:
Occasional Sage wrote:To which I'll add, Wanda only convinced him to give those 500K Schmuckers away by telling him the Treasury could not be taken along in case of a hasty retreat.
hmmm. Except maybe for enough to fill his purse when he became a barbarian? Jillian has told us that's a very limited amount, which may explain the three-knight-limit when he bailed on GK.
The barbarian purse doesn't begin to explain why Stanley didn't take along additional forces. Jillian, as a barbarian, maintained a disband order. Stanley could have taken multiples of the forces he did take and just disbanded those he could not support if and when he could not support him. Going lean had zero advantages, and is an unexplained logical flaw. Fridge logic, if you will.


Fair point, unless he was taking what he could pay for and leaving the rest to bleed the RCC. "Little use" is still better than "none".

Though again, as MarbitChow pointed out: that's using logic to explain Stanley.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby skarl » Fri May 27, 2011 1:19 pm

holy_dwead wrote:No one has commented on this, so I wanted to say that I got a big kick out of "Somewhere, a pigeon cooed." This is a play on a practically ancient literary trope: "Somewhere a dog barked."

Take a look at an essay regarding the expression in novels (caution: strong language).

http://www.slate.com/id/2256007/

Obviously, a cooing pigeon is the only logical alternative to the phrase when Stanley the Tool is in the room.



is that the same as (caution, litterally translation) 'what, did I just hear a lama shit?' if someone is pointing out that he is ignoring someone
I'm not serious. I am never serious. seriously!

(please remember that I am a foreign speaker, and therefore make a lot of spelling & gramatic mistakes, and please don't pin me down on my exact formulation.)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby Oberon » Fri May 27, 2011 2:42 pm

MarbitChow wrote:You're not seriously attempting to apply logic to Stanley's decision-making process, are you? Are we reading the same book? :D
Stanley is an idiot, but he is also firmly aware of the rules. In other words, he may be an idiot, but he isn't an idiot. :o
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri May 27, 2011 3:05 pm

He may be an idiot but he's no fool.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 049

Postby skarl » Sat May 28, 2011 4:34 pm

he's no fool, he's a tool.








(couldn't let that pointe go. sorry. It was a bad one, I know.)



(still, I couldn't let it go.)
I'm not serious. I am never serious. seriously!

(please remember that I am a foreign speaker, and therefore make a lot of spelling & gramatic mistakes, and please don't pin me down on my exact formulation.)
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