Book 2 – Page 62

[Housellama]

Wow, this thread got full of silliness.

I agree that Jeftichew poses a great deal of risk to Parson, and that part of that risk is his apparent harmlessness.

Re: attacking Charlescomm, I'd have to suggest that going against the archon horde without a countermeasure strikes me as quite dangerous. However, stifling Charlie's business model would starve him out and reduce that number substantially.

I don't think anyone's arguing that Jeftichew's not a threat. What the argument was about is whether or not Parson should kill him immediately. The majority opinion seems to be no, he shouldn't, but he would do very well to get whatever it is that he is going to do done and get out of the MK with a quickness. There is a vocal minority who believes that Parson should kill Jeftichew now and go.

I think the Archon horde discussion is academic, because I really don't think Charlie is stupid enough to mass his Archons in one place long enough for them to be attacked. If he is, he deserves whatever happens.

[Oberon]

You present jojo as a skinny weak man that Parson should not fear.

Yes, of course. Except, you made that shit up out of your own imagination. I never even hinted that Chewie was some kind of weakling that Parson should be completely at ease with. I instead described a stand down where both humans were well armed. I noted that Chewie was a caster, that he had a scroll in hand, and that he was not harmless. It's awfully convenient for you to be able to invent straw man and then knock them down, but it doesn't make for a reasoned debate. It just makes for an exchange where you make shit up and I point it out.
Did you have any real point you wanted to discuss? Or is standing up straw men all that you can manage?

The sword is not extended, and is quite far from jojo.

Ah, that's all you've got. You've decided that the art perspective reveals that Parson is just one step shy of offering to buy Chewie a drink, regardless of the simple fact that Parson stopped Chewie in his tracks by drawing his blade and that Chewie responded by essentially begging Parson's leave and engaging in conversation... Bravo.

I think the Archon horde discussion is academic, because I really don't think Charlie is stupid enough to mass his Archons in one place long enough for them to be attacked. If he is, he deserves whatever happens.

I don't think that massing a veiled and highly mobile force of archons is much of a risk at all, from what we've seen of the other side's ability to detect such. But, Charlie may be still smarting from his last massing of archons in one place, where he lost them all and now they are working for GK. Still, recall that Charlie at that time could have ended GK and taken the bracer and Parson, if Parson had lived. Charlie allowed himself to be talked into ending turn, possibly because another turn of GK vs. RCC action would have made his eventual take of GK easier, possibly because he wanted to see Parson in action, and possibly because he might have also gotten the 'pliers without having to attack an RCC side to get them. And possibly other reasons I have not managed to grasp, which are based upon factors the readers have not been made privy to. But Charlie, in the absence of Parson's persuasion, would have done the thing he wanted to do and been absent before or even prevented the volcano.

[Chit Rule Railroad]

Parson has seen Maggie in action, she stunned a warlord with a simple word.

On the one hand, Jojo announced his presence instead of shooting Parson in the back. On the other hand, Parson may not be confident that by attacking Jojo, he would prevent Jojo from saying a single word.

And just who is sending that caster, using that hat, or sending that thinkagram?
Send a caster away from their capitol, when it is under attack? Not likely. Likewise with wasting time using a hat or sending a thinkagram. This would be the Charlescomm turn, and would not have any of the drama of the current off-turn siege of Jetstone where Jetstone was earlier able to waste piles of time thinking that they had it to waste. No, this would be what Parson intended: A blitzkrieg decapitation strike. And I doubt that any defenders would divert any resources (and to whom?) rather than fully focus on a fight for their very survival as a side.

Marie found her way into the MK from Faq. A "message" found its way to Jillian, even though no Faq thinkamancer has been identified. Parson sent casters into the MK. Bea sent casters into the MK. The MK doesn't pop units, but it is full of casters who once belonged to Sides.

Thinkamancers can monitor who lives and dies. They "can pluck anyone's G-strings"; Maggie knew how many RCC units survived Sizemore's collapses of GK zones. The GMTTA could see Charlie's archons taking casualties up to and until the moment of a Side being wiped out (which I suspect they would notice even if they weren't watching the Side specifically), and it is quite plausible that they are spying on Charlie's archons. Sure, it wouldn't be definitive, but the GMTTA certainly care enough about Charlie to pay other casters some Rands for any information they need to check on what he's up to.

You don't know what Predictamancy does and doesn't do.

And then there's the mysteries of the workings of Duncan's headset, Janis knowing Sizemore's CW bonus, Parson's bracer - which is to say, there's a lot we don't know about magic.

[the_tick_rules]

I think Janis might know it because didn't sizemore visit the MK and her during parson's 1st reign as CW? I'm guessing since she can see stats she noticed they switched back to the exact same numbers they were at that time.

[oslecamo2_temp]

Charlie may have, with his unmatched thinkamancy enhanced intelligence, arrived early on at the conclusion that expanding an empire was not a winning strategy, and then developed his current "amass a fortune because money is always a good thing" strategy as a way to survive, present a small target, and await new revelations. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that Charlie invests in tri-mancer and other spell research. Someone had to come up with (*ptui*) Kingworld, after all. New and potent spells are one way to potentially break the status quo, so this would be a natural thing for Charlie to be involved in.

Charlie is far from the only erfworlder developing magic. Even Stanley creates his own custom tri-mancer spells (and yes, Wanda herself confirmed it was Stanley's personal idea). Jillian's converted chief warlord came with an item produced by a tri-mancer link as well.

The problem being however that if a single caster is a tasty target in a battlefield, a tri-mancer link is a complete sitting duck. They cannot use their basic sells for self-defence and heck, just talking to them may make them colapse in coma! They can produce super effects like volcano nuke and Kingworld, but you need to set up things very carefully, and in the end troop rush may be simply easier and faster.

I sure wish we knew the reason he never popped a warlord and promoted him/her to CWL for the reduced city upkeep, it seems a natural thing to do. Even if s/he never gains much in the way of levels s/he would also provide every archon a CWL bonus. And Charlie should be able to provide him/her with a flying item specifically so that s/he can gain levels and further boost his fleet of archons. It makes no sense why Charlie would avoid this no-brainer option.

Eeerr, don't tell me you still didn't figure that out?

Arrogance. CWL tend to discuss a lot with their masters. Sometimes even betray them. I don't see Charlie having the patience. He probably had some CWL in the distant past, which were quickly disbanded when he dared to question one of his master's orders. If Don was Charlie, he would've just erased his own leadership corps rather than let them question his last grandious plan.

It's the same arrogance that made Charlie sit his archons in standby instead of capturing Hamster when they had the chance so he could get Jetstone to cough up some extra money, and ended up seeing his precious forces converted to the enemy. Charlie thinks he's smarter than everybody else, so he just won't stand for his own subordinates to question his orders. A CWL would probably remind Charlie of the "GK incident" at every oportunity to try to get leverage.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Gentlemen, why don't we dial back the snark factor just a wee bit? You have successfully demonstrated you are both souls of wit and eloquence. Now that we've got that out of the way, perhaps you may continue with the topic at hand?

However, if you would like to continue, I do happen have a tape measure close at hand. I would be more than happy to facilitate your meta-discussion. Slap them down on the table and I will assist you good gentlemen post haste.

Le Salon de Snarque always has available locations for worthy applicants such as yourself. Dare I say, you look like a member already

Wow, this thread got full of silliness.

You must be new here.

But you'll see things our way soon enough. Mwahahaha!

Has anyone considered a carnymancer's defence against being attacked by a sword?

Haha, good one

{BLAND}'s completely right.

Crikey. That's the second time someone with more letters in their name than posts delurks to praise my magnificence. Thanks y'all, it's really flattering, but please stop doing this, as it reflects badly on me.

Spoiler: show

The irony of it all is, it's actually everyone here who has over 100 posts who are my sockpuppets.

And again you are grasping at straws {as far as the Archon-hunting plan is concerned} but all this is a bit pointless we won't get to that in less than two years...

Well, apart from several fundamental flaws that prevent it from ever working, yours is a sound plan. I'm sure that, with just a few cosmetic changes, it will be just the thing Parson will eventually adopt.

I just hope we all are alive when that time comes

I sure wish we knew the reason he never popped a warlord and promoted him/her to CWL for the reduced city upkeep, it seems a natural thing to do.

Eeerr, don't tell me you still didn't figure that out?

Oh shite. No. You can't possibly mean that ... Charlie is holding the Idiot Ball?

[wrecan]

Parson completely ignores the danger and seems intrigued and not really afraid. I'm perplexed about your sentence about humans being predictable. Humans can easily hide intent.

Parson doesn't ignore the danger. The sword is in striking position in every frame it's drawn. In three of the four, the sword can be poked at Jojo. In the other one, the sword can easily be brought down in a slash across Jojo's midsection. At no point does Parson drop his guard, even if he may be shifting his stance during the conversation.

At any rate, Parson is not particularly scared, but you're the only one who thinks that to be a salient factor. I think Parson doesn't want to kill someone just because they want to talk a few moments. I fully expect Parson to ask Jojo to cut to the chase if Jojo won't get to the point in the next few moments.

(Frankly, I think Parson isn't all that scared because a large part of him thinks this is still a dreamworld and everything happening to him is not real, and he's lying in a hospital bed somewhere in Stupidworld. So, thinking that this is all a dream can give a person a bit more confidence.)

[kouhoutek]

At any rate, Parson is not particularly scared, but you're the only one who thinks that to be a salient factor. I think Parson doesn't want to kill someone just because they want to talk a few moments. I fully expect Parson to ask Jojo to cut to the chase if Jojo won't get to the point in the next few moments.

Also, Parson is not particularly scared because he hasn't been speculating on forums for the past month about who the mysterious marching band caster is.

He doesn't know he was lurking behind the portal, that he has a connection to Queen Bea and might have one with Charlie. He doesn't know any of that.

He has known this guy for all of 30 seconds. As far as Parson is concerned, he could be some hall monitor type coming to tell him he shouldn't be in the MK. Killing him in cold blood would be stupid and cowardly and out of character.

[MarbitChow]

Eeerr, don't tell me you still didn't figure that out? Arrogance. CWL tend to discuss a lot with their masters. Sometimes even betray them.

I don't see it as arrogance. I see it as paranoia. Charlie has to know EVERYTHING. Charlie is also a control freak. Commanders have too much independent thought. Charlie's defenders are only Archons (which the Dish renders fanatically loyal, like the Hammer does for dwagons and the Pliers for decrypted), and golems (which are also fanatically loyal). All of his units are perfectly loyal, and do exactly what he says.

[oslecamo2_temp]

BLANDCorporatio:I'm not saying Charlie is holding the idiot ball, I'm saying he isn't perfect. He's pretty smart, and his business system had been quite sucessfull so far even whitout a CWL, so one cannot really blame him for being arrogant and/or paranoid. He would've greatly crippled GK just if one of his two allies deliver the finishing blow to Wanda, but both Jillian and Trems decided they had better things to do. Can't really blame Charlie for not wanting a CWL when he has plenty of proof he's Surrounded by Idiots.

For Charlie to be holding the idiot ball, he would need to be commiting multiple idiotic mistakes in a row like, I dunno, not taking down the enemy when you have the oportunity, followed by exposing you troops, followed by shooting your own exposed troops, followed by running screaming towards the enemy heavy siege units and geting yourself knocked out.

Eeerr, don't tell me you still didn't figure that out? Arrogance. CWL tend to discuss a lot with their masters. Sometimes even betray them.

I don't see it as arrogance. I see it as paranoia. Charlie has to know EVERYTHING. Charlie is also a control freak. Commanders have too much independent thought. Charlie's defenders are only Archons (which the Dish renders fanatically loyal, like the Hammer does for dwagons and the Pliers for decrypted), and golems (which are also fanatically loyal). All of his units are perfectly loyal, and do exactly what he says.

Those are good points, but I believe they aren't mutually exclusive with mine. Charlie may not have a CWL out of a combination of paranoia and arrogance, since other paranoic sides still trust in CWLs. What's the worst that could happen if his CWL betrays him after all? There's no nearby sides for him to defect to, and a lonely warlord would have no hope of breaking trough Charlie's honor guard of veteran archons, not to mention whatever direct combat potential the arkendish has.

[gazes_also]

Those are good points, but I believe they aren't mutually exclusive with mine. Charlie may not have a CWL out of a combination of paranoia and arrogance, since other paranoic sides still trust in CWLs. What's the worst that could happen if his CWL betrays him after all? There's no nearby sides for him to defect to, and a lonely warlord would have no hope of breaking trough Charlie's honor guard of veteran archons, not to mention whatever direct combat potential the arkendish has.

There are other possibilities why no CWL or heir. First, to a toolwielder, an heir is pretty useless unless you can be certain he will attune to the tool, and if you are certain he will attune, that you can trust the heir completely to resist the temptation of attuning ... ahead of schedule (remember Stanley doesn't have an heir either.)

Second, on the CWL, Charlie has complete command and control of his forces through the archendish, so has no need of a field commander; it would probably slow him down, in fact. As the CWL would not have the kind of access to information that Charlie has directly his decision-making would always be a step behind. The CWL would just be a bonus giver, but then, where do you put that bonus? Charlie doesn't engage in direct conflict with massed units if he can avoid it, so no one group is the obvious place to put that bonus; the hired-out units would be granted bonus from CWL of the hiring side. The cost/benefit for Charlescomm having no heir or CWL looks pretty sound.

Other sides are hierarchical because they have to be, and it often causes no end of problems(TV for example). Charlie's side has a radial structure because it is efficient and effective that way given his powers. There are higher level Archons with tactical command, who would be equivalent to regular WLs and there are probably garrison units and commanders we haven't seen yet because we know so little about his cities (I'm still hoping to see short, chubby, male garrison units called Bosley's )

[Housellama]

I think the Archon horde discussion is academic, because I really don't think Charlie is stupid enough to mass his Archons in one place long enough for them to be attacked. If he is, he deserves whatever happens.

I don't think that massing a veiled and highly mobile force of archons is much of a risk at all, from what we've seen of the other side's ability to detect such.

The key words in my sentence is "long enough for them to be attacked." Massing his archons for a quick strike is genius. Leaving them around long enough for someone to mount a planned strike against them is idiocy.

[Lamech]

Sure Charlie doesn't have a CWL somewhere? Stashed in a cell somewhere doing nothing but providing a bonus, and he passes it off as something else? (Artifact bonus, enchanted luckamancy bonus, city bonus?) He clearly wants a short command tree (him, FF5, everyone else) a chief warlord who could give orders would screw it up, but he wants the bonus, so, dude in a cell. Occasionally he can get fed captured units, and cloth golems for XP.

[coyotenose]

Parson is reacting exactly as my personal and academic experiences say that he should. I believe that your understanding of the way humans should and do react is inaccurate or incomplete. Perhaps my interpretation of what you are saying is wrong, but my life experiences lead me to believe that Rob's portrayal of Parson's actions in this situation are consistent with his character. (Pun fully intended)

Parson stopped, pointed the sword to the guy, made a joke, and then pointed the sword from the guy and started talking like they were old friends and he wasn't in hostile territory surrounded by enemies that want to kill him. You're not getting the point of my lion thingy, when one is really scared instinct takes over, unless one had same training on how to deal with it.

Parson isn't scared, or at least much less than I expected.

Parson deals with tension and fear by snarking. I do it too.

[the_tick_rules]

Sure Charlie doesn't have a CWL somewhere? Stashed in a cell somewhere doing nothing but providing a bonus, and he passes it off as something else? (Artifact bonus, enchanted luckamancy bonus, city bonus?) He clearly wants a short command tree (him, FF5, everyone else) a chief warlord who could give orders would screw it up, but he wants the bonus, so, dude in a cell. Occasionally he can get fed captured units, and cloth golems for XP.

Way outside chance, but not impossible.

[ftl]

Sure Charlie doesn't have a CWL somewhere? Stashed in a cell somewhere doing nothing but providing a bonus, and he passes it off as something else? (Artifact bonus, enchanted luckamancy bonus, city bonus?) He clearly wants a short command tree (him, FF5, everyone else) a chief warlord who could give orders would screw it up, but he wants the bonus, so, dude in a cell. Occasionally he can get fed captured units, and cloth golems for XP.

Way outside chance, but not impossible.

Well, the fact that he doesn't have a CWL came straight from the archons, I think. They'd feel the bonus.

[Lamech]

Well, the fact that he doesn't have a CWL came straight from the archons, I think. They'd feel the bonus.

He would need to convince them its something else. The arkendish bonus for example. You could have a magic box that provides a CWL bonus to archons and it would do the same thing. (If it had an upkeep and could be upgraded by sacrificing unit too it.)

[Oberon]

Marie found her way into the MK from Faq. A "message" found its way to Jillian, even though no Faq thinkamancer has been identified. Parson sent casters into the MK. Bea sent casters into the MK. The MK doesn't pop units, but it is full of casters who once belonged to Sides.

None of those situations has anything to do with the hypothetical at hand, where Charlie has sent in a decapitation strike of veiled archons to the capitol of some side, giving them little to no time to do or think about anything except for their fight for immediate survival. The defenders at FAQ were not shown to have had enough time to do more than put up the best defense they could before falling, and this was an attack which would have given even more advance warning than a pile of veiled archons.

You offer speculation combined with interesting but not relevant facts. Marie could have been in the MK when FAQ fell, we just do not know. We do know that Jack was captured and Wanda turned. We also know that if Marie had been present in any of FAQs other cities that she would have been frozen in time when the capitol fell,and thus unable to enter the MK (and there is no evidence that anything other than the capitol of a side has a MK portal). It is reasonable to assume that Marie would have been captured as well had she been present at the fall of FAQ. If the "message" you refer to is the hat magic, this is not relevant. Parson sent casters into the MK when he was standing in the portal chamber, having been fully aware of the attack which was coming and having had time enough to plan for a series of fall back maneuvers as his defensive plans were thwarted one by one. The MK is full of casters who once belonged to sides, but the MK isn't full of casters who died or were captured when their capitol fell. All interesting but not relevant facts.

Thinkamancers can monitor who lives and dies. They "can pluck anyone's G-strings"; Maggie knew how many RCC units survived Sizemore's collapses of GK zones. The GMTTA could see Charlie's archons taking casualties up to and until the moment of a Side being wiped out (which I suspect they would notice even if they weren't watching the Side specifically), and it is quite plausible that they are spying on Charlie's archons. Sure, it wouldn't be definitive, but the GMTTA certainly care enough about Charlie to pay other casters some Rands for any information they need to check on what he's up to.

Thinkmancers can see units fall. They don't see who killed them. And any thinkamancer monitoring falling units would need to be in the MK to avoid being either killed or captured in the capitol, or frozen in time as a neutral when the side fell if they were in a non-capitol city. Charlie has both the reconnaissance and the intelligence to arrange for the caster to be at the capitol when the attack starts, if he wants that to be the case. Charlie gets to set the pace, everyone else, whether they know it or not, needs to be ready to thwart a decapitation strike all the time. This fact either makes them very inefficient and therefore weaker by keeping large numbers of defenses penned up at the capitol every turn, or it makes them extinct when Charlie sees that the time it ripe for that side to fall.

You don't know what Predictamancy does and doesn't do.

We do know what has been revealed about predictamancy, and nothing revealed points to predictamancy do anything other than stating that some event will occur. No who, no when, no how, no why. Wanda was predicted to attune. To which 'tool? When? Marie could not say. FAQ was predicted to fall. To who? When? Marie could not say. You can't just toss out something which insinuates that Charlie would be identified by predictamancy when there is no evidence for it at all. I'll happily swap theories with you, but you must present them as unfounded theories, and not use made up theories to try to disprove known facts. I don't know what the Shredder claw does or does not do either, but I'm fairly safe in assuming that it doesn't magically inform every unit on my side that unit X from side Y just killed unit Z from my side. Unless the story states or even hints as such a capability, it cannot be held out as a valid counter-argument.

[Oberon]

Eeerr, don't tell me you still didn't figure that out? [Why Charlie does not have a CWL]

Arrogance. CWL tend to discuss a lot with their masters. Sometimes even betray them. I don't see Charlie having the patience. He probably had some CWL in the distant past, which were quickly disbanded when he dared to question one of his master's orders. If Don was Charlie, he would've just erased his own leadership corps rather than let them question his last grandious plan.

It's the same arrogance that made Charlie sit his archons in standby instead of capturing Hamster when they had the chance so he could get Jetstone to cough up some extra money, and ended up seeing his precious forces converted to the enemy. Charlie thinks he's smarter than everybody else, so he just won't stand for his own subordinates to question his orders. A CWL would probably remind Charlie of the "GK incident" at every oportunity to try to get leverage.

That makes sense for some facets of his personality, but it doesn't make sense for more others. Charlie likes money over just about anything else. A CWL reduces city upkeep every single turn. Enough to offset their own upkeep? Dunno, but I'd hope so. Charlie makes the vast majority of his money by renting out archons, and a CWL bonus would allow him to rent out fewer for the same effect and free up archons for other contracts. And, Charlie told Parson he'd like to have the smart warlord who came with the bracer. Unless that was whitewash to try to lower Parson's guard and perhaps turn, Charlie would have had a CWL and a very opinionated one, which tends to indicate that Charlie isn't completely opposed to hearing another viewpoint. As for the potential for betrayal, the CWL would never even see Charlie, so there would be zero chance for a coup. And, the CWL would not be the heir, so a coup would be illogical in any event. The worst betrayal would be just turning to another side. And with the fringe benefits of being Charlie's CWL? I don't see that happening. So, I'm not buying arrogance, refusal to hear another opinion, or fear of betrayal as valid reasons for Charlie to not have a CWL. I hope that the reason is reveled in time, and makes good logical sense.

[Oberon]

The key words in my sentence is "long enough for them to be attacked." Massing his archons for a quick strike is genius. Leaving them around long enough for someone to mount a planned strike against them is idiocy.

How do you plan an attack against a mass of invisible units? How do you even know they are massing, much less where? How do you manage to attack fliers? I think that it is not impossible to pull off such an attack, but the resources involved would be huge. You'd need magic and a mass of the correct unit types to even stand a chance. Jillian backed by Charlie might be able to pull it off. But...Charlie isn't going to help Jillian attack Charlie. GK might pull it off. And a traditional side might pull it off, but it'd require a lot more magic to be able to get slow moving archery and flying troops into the right place at the right time. Not impossible, but it's looking really, really improbable.

We don't know how Charlie manages to have the forces needed at the time they are needed, but he does. Ansom asks for some archons and *BAM* the angels are there. Parson reveals the number of archons needed to take the GK garrison in a single turn and *BAM* they arrive the next turn. Sammy is feeling froggy and needs to be made to toe the RCCII party line and *BAM* Charlie reveals that he has enough spies at least around Haggar to describe their exact (lack of) defenses to Sammy. Bluff or not, it was what Charlie needed when he needed it. This capability has never failed him, to the point where I speculated that Charlie can teleport his archons. How else do you always manage to have the right forces in the right place at the right time? Any Stupidworld general would be green with envy.