Book 2 – Page 62

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Book 2 – Page 62

Postby Housellama » Tue May 31, 2011 8:45 pm

Oberon wrote:
Housellama wrote:The key words in my sentence is "long enough for them to be attacked." Massing his archons for a quick strike is genius. Leaving them around long enough for someone to mount a planned strike against them is idiocy.
How do you plan an attack against a mass of invisible units? How do you even know they are massing, much less where? How do you manage to attack fliers? I think that it is not impossible to pull off such an attack, but the resources involved would be huge. You'd need magic and a mass of the correct unit types to even stand a chance. Jillian backed by Charlie might be able to pull it off. But...Charlie isn't going to help Jillian attack Charlie. GK might pull it off. And a traditional side might pull it off, but it'd require a lot more magic to be able to get slow moving archery and flying troops into the right place at the right time. Not impossible, but it's looking really, really improbable.

We don't know how Charlie manages to have the forces needed at the time they are needed, but he does. Ansom asks for some archons and *BAM* the angels are there. Parson reveals the number of archons needed to take the GK garrison in a single turn and *BAM* they arrive the next turn. Sammy is feeling froggy and needs to be made to toe the RCCII party line and *BAM* Charlie reveals that he has enough spies at least around Haggar to describe their exact (lack of) defenses to Sammy. Bluff or not, it was what Charlie needed when he needed it. This capability has never failed him, to the point where I speculated that Charlie can teleport his archons. How else do you always manage to have the right forces in the right place at the right time? Any Stupidworld general would be green with envy.


...

That's kinda my point, you see. I never said it was easy. I simply stated that if, for some ungodly reason, Charlie let it happen then he is a complete idiot. Precisely BECAUSE it is very, very difficult for someone to effectively attack such a force.

Hence, attacking with them is genius. Leaving them around long enough to be the target of a planned and well executed strike is complete and utter idiocy of the highest level. I mean criminally stupid.
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

"The principle of strategy is to know ten thousand things by having one thing." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Earth, Go Rin No Sho
User avatar
Housellama
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 499
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 62

Postby ryanroyce » Tue May 31, 2011 10:25 pm

Oberon wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:Eeerr, don't tell me you still didn't figure that out? [Why Charlie does not have a CWL]

Arrogance. CWL tend to discuss a lot with their masters. Sometimes even betray them. I don't see Charlie having the patience. He probably had some CWL in the distant past, which were quickly disbanded when he dared to question one of his master's orders. If Don was Charlie, he would've just erased his own leadership corps rather than let them question his last grandious plan.

It's the same arrogance that made Charlie sit his archons in standby instead of capturing Hamster when they had the chance so he could get Jetstone to cough up some extra money, and ended up seeing his precious forces converted to the enemy. Charlie thinks he's smarter than everybody else, so he just won't stand for his own subordinates to question his orders. A CWL would probably remind Charlie of the "GK incident" at every oportunity to try to get leverage.


That makes sense for some facets of his personality, but it doesn't make sense for more others. Charlie likes money over just about anything else. A CWL reduces city upkeep every single turn. Enough to offset their own upkeep? Dunno, but I'd hope so. Charlie makes the vast majority of his money by renting out archons, and a CWL bonus would allow him to rent out fewer for the same effect and free up archons for other contracts. And, Charlie told Parson he'd like to have the smart warlord who came with the bracer. Unless that was whitewash to try to lower Parson's guard and perhaps turn, Charlie would have had a CWL and a very opinionated one, which tends to indicate that Charlie isn't completely opposed to hearing another viewpoint. As for the potential for betrayal, the CWL would never even see Charlie, so there would be zero chance for a coup. And, the CWL would not be the heir, so a coup would be illogical in any event. The worst betrayal would be just turning to another side. And with the fringe benefits of being Charlie's CWL? I don't see that happening. 8-) So, I'm not buying arrogance, refusal to hear another opinion, or fear of betrayal as valid reasons for Charlie to not have a CWL. I hope that the reason is reveled in time, and makes good logical sense.


You don't need a CWL to handle city upkeep, just a warlord (like Parson was while CWL Ansom was off spreading the gospel, so to speak). Perhaps you just need a unit with the Leadership special. If that's the case, then a member of Charlie's "inner circle" probably handles the city's upkeep. If a warlord would be specifically needed, then (as you say) that warlord's upkeep would need to cost less than the extra Schmuckers she would earn by doing the rounds or else it wouldn't be worth the trouble of popping her in the first place.

That said, since Charlie isn't an Idiot and he doesn't have a Warlord (chief or otherwise), I am inclined to believe that he only needs a unit with the Leadership special. It's the Occam's Razor answer, IMO.
User avatar
ryanroyce
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:58 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 62

Postby Oberon » Tue May 31, 2011 10:35 pm

Housellama wrote:Hence, attacking with them is genius. Leaving them around long enough to be the target of a planned and well executed strike is complete and utter idiocy of the highest level. I mean criminally stupid.
To date we've seen one instance where Charlie, in a great position to attack (the bracer provided the number of archons he'd need to win 100%), was persuaded instead to stand by and watch. He thought he was all clever i.e. "Oh, no! I got paid to make it a no win situation!", but instead he was the one begging for a new deal and getting the tuna fish in return i.e. "Sorry, Charlie" <all archons burn and die>. I agree with your assessment: This was criminally stupid.

Charlie on the offensive is a force all sides need to be prepared to recon with. Charlie ending turn amongst hostiles is *ahem* holding the idiot ball. He had only the tiny possibility of also gaining the 'pliers to go on for his decision to end turn. One could argue that he wanted to see Parson in action, since he clearly didn't believe the 66% chance to survive the turn until it was confirmed via a no-lie contract. But still, take the no-lie contract at face value, since it is indeed a no-lie contract, and swoop in to grab the bracer and the smart warlord who provided you with the figure you can't believe except for the no-lie contract makes it a have-to-believe. Don't stand there like an idiot hoping to also get the 'pliers on a slim chance. Instead, go Stanley hunting and take the 'hammer! :P
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
Oberon
 
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 62

Postby DoctorJest » Tue May 31, 2011 11:41 pm

Oberon wrote:
Housellama wrote:Hence, attacking with them is genius. Leaving them around long enough to be the target of a planned and well executed strike is complete and utter idiocy of the highest level. I mean criminally stupid.
To date we've seen one instance where Charlie, in a great position to attack (the bracer provided the number of archons he'd need to win 100%), was persuaded instead to stand by and watch. He thought he was all clever i.e. "Oh, no! I got paid to make it a no win situation!", but instead he was the one begging for a new deal and getting the tuna fish in return i.e. "Sorry, Charlie" <all archons burn and die>. I agree with your assessment: This was criminally stupid.

Charlie on the offensive is a force all sides need to be prepared to recon with. Charlie ending turn amongst hostiles is *ahem* holding the idiot ball. He had only the tiny possibility of also gaining the 'pliers to go on for his decision to end turn. One could argue that he wanted to see Parson in action, since he clearly didn't believe the 66% chance to survive the turn until it was confirmed via a no-lie contract. But still, take the no-lie contract at face value, since it is indeed a no-lie contract, and swoop in to grab the bracer and the smart warlord who provided you with the figure you can't believe except for the no-lie contract makes it a have-to-believe. Don't stand there like an idiot hoping to also get the 'pliers on a slim chance. Instead, go Stanley hunting and take the 'hammer! :P


And fight Jillian and TV's forces for it while he's at it?

It's been made pretty clear that Charlescomm only really survives as a side by appearing to be both neutral and mercenary. Being an opportunistic weasel only enhances the mercenary reputation. Doing decapitation strikes against leaders of sides unbidden would threaten the image of neutrality and start making other sides nervous about your true motives. When your customers stop seeing you as an asset and instead as a threat, then you have a problem.

So as long as everyone thinks that Charley will only do specifically what he's being paid to do, Charley is seen as a resource, not a threat. If Charley starts acting like an Overlord intent on some sort of endgame beyond providing his services, then that's a risk. Charley doesn't like risks.

Charley isn't in the game to win. He's in the game to not lose, and that's an important distinction. Charley has never dealt with someone who could beat him at his own game before, which is why he both admires and loathes Parson at the same time. In retrospect, that makes him look sloppy, because hindsight is 20/20. It's like you think you're playing Chess at Beginner Level but someone secretly threw the switch to Grandmaster when you weren't looking. You only look like a doof if there was some reasonable way you could expect that to have happened, which, at the time, there wasn't.
DoctorJest
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:57 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 62

Postby the_tick_rules » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:53 am

That's what I've been saying. Charlie is no doubt powerful but he's not a world ending power in terms of direct military force, but he's not playing it that way... probably. His strength is that everyone needs him, or thinks they do, so nobody is currently willing to go about the hugely costful war to crush him. Or they think if they don't hire him someone else will. That's also his weakness, with only one city his side MUST live off mercenary pay and his percieved neutral status, so they wouldn't even need to fight him, simply stop paying him and he'd starve or have to start conquering and loose his status and become just another side. He doesn't like parson because parson is rocking the nice stable system that keeps charlies pockets full.
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
User avatar
the_tick_rules
 
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 11:36 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 62

Postby Dr Pepper » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:17 am

Kipster had just returned to Charlescomm after an intelligence gathering mission when he got the call.

He hoped it was another VIP assignment. He was good at those, and proud of his abilities. Even a truly unpleasant employer like the late Princess Imelda of Transylvito couldn't break his self confidence, though she had dented it quite a bit. But that was in the past and most of his clients were-- appreciative. He might not be quite as good as Dimple Chad, whose merest grin, it was said, could render his target totally confused over even the most vital of decisions. But he did well enough. He commanded a high fee and he always brought in bonuses.

The other Archons watched him enviously as he entered the citadel. It was a rare privilege to meet Charlie face to face. Everyone craved it no matter how often he contacted them mentally. Suddenly Kipster thought of the decrypted ones, the lost sisters who now heard the voice of another in their heads. He shuddered as a greater horror than any that Imelda's shoe exercises had ever produced came over him. No, he reassured himself, those sad cases would be redressed. He had faith in Charlie.

He went inside and found himself in a little square room. It held a simple cot, a single battered table, and a rickety chair. Charlie had once claimed that these minimalist surroundings helped him concentrate. The cable of the Arkendish ran in from a tiny square window, otherwise the dingy walls were solid. They were also covered with charcoal drawings and cryptic writing. He didn't try to understand them, it was not for him to fathom Charlie's thoughts.

Charlie himself was sitting crosslegged on the cot holding the end of the cable. He gestured for Kipster to sit, then looked at him with dark, languid eyes. Unable to meet those eyes directly, Kipster stared at the enigmatic, angular symbol nestled between them.

"So, Kippers-on-Toast, what have you learned?" Charlie loved to give nicknames. "Gobwin Knob is still attacking, in spite of losing their turn" answered Kipster. "Yes, i was aware of that." Charlie sighed. "That Jillian. Such a troubled child. She needs to let go of the hangups of the past and let herself be truly loved. But what are the rumors, Kippy?"

"The rumors are all about you, Charlie. You are credited with having a finger in every pie, and a plan for every contingency, even the ones you couldn't possibly know about!" "Those rumors are true-- i know everything. Sometimes i know things even before i know that i know them. Go on." "We-ell, it seems that Gobwin Knob's new super warlord got into the Magic Kingdom somehow. And it seems that there are at least two groups of casters interested in him. And there are people arguing that the casters are either somehow doing this out of fear of you, or that they are somehow being influenced by you."

Charlie smiled. It was a warm, comforting smile and Kipster leaned into it. But it also held danger as did most of Charlie's acts. There was always danger in Charlie's love, but Kipster and all the other Archons accepted that. Charlie took Kipster's face in his hands and kissed him. "You are a good son" he murmured.

"The thing is, i don't have to do anything to influence people. That's because they do fear me. They fear what i know and what i can do. So they have to react. Like this..." He waved a hand, indicating the cramped room. "They think they put me here, that they can know where i am at all times. The fools could never see that they were just following my plan and that this is my own sanctuary!"

Kipster felt more than usually bewildered, but he continued. "Oh, that. Um, there's this other caster and he went to confront the warlord. And the thing is, well. It wasn't just some people saying he must be working for you. There were a few that were even saying it really was you. You know, in the Magic Kingdom. By yourself!"

"Oh, Kipster. Don't you know, the only reason i didn't go to the Magic Kingdom, by myself, is i didn't want to. No one can stop me from being where i want to be. Where was i ten minutes ago? You don't know, you weren't here. For all anyone else knows, i could have been in the Magic Kingdom, teaching the Hippymancers how to really groove. But i wasn't."

He cackled. "They think they can control me. That they've curbed me. Or so they tell themselves! But deep down, they cannot deny that i am the true voice of the An- Titans! And sometimes, when they think i'm here..." He indicated the room again. "I am actually here!" He indicated the room a third time. "Do you understand, Kip-to-My-Lou?" "It's, um, difficult" Kipster stammered. "Well nevermind, you will in time. Everyone will when the Revolution comes at last. And when it does, it's evolve or croak, baby!" His voice dropped to a low hiss. "And that goes for both worlds!"

Kipster closed his eyes, felt all of Erf spinning around him. After a few seconds, or was it hours, he opened them again, and found Charlie watching him. "I think that's enough for today, Kip-o-rama. Put yourself back on the available list."

Kipster stood. "Actually, Charlie, there was one other thing. While i was scouting one time, i spent some time in this one hex on the border between Transylvito and Carpool. Neither side claims it because it would be too hard to defend. But it's got a beautiful beach and some of the gnarliest waves i've ever seen. And if you decide that you want to be, like not here, and be somewhere else by yourself, that would be a good place."

"Kippy, Kippy, Kippy" crooned Charlie. "You know i don't surf!"
Read, like there won't be a movie
Game, like the die rolls don't matter
Filk, like everyone is tone deaf anyway

10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
. . . . . . Dr Pepper
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . .4
User avatar
Dr Pepper
 
Posts: 526
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:41 pm
Location: santa maria, ca

Re: Book 2 – Page 62

Postby Sylvan » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:00 am

the_tick_rules wrote:That's what I've been saying. Charlie is no doubt powerful but he's not a world ending power in terms of direct military force, but he's not playing it that way... probably. His strength is that everyone needs him, or thinks they do, so nobody is currently willing to go about the hugely costful war to crush him. Or they think if they don't hire him someone else will. That's also his weakness, with only one city his side MUST live off mercenary pay and his percieved neutral status, so they wouldn't even need to fight him, simply stop paying him and he'd starve or have to start conquering and loose his status and become just another side. He doesn't like parson because parson is rocking the nice stable system that keeps charlies pockets full.


This, @ the argument that it would be a smart move for Charlie to up and take his fleet of Archons and start crushing some faces.

The moment Charlie sneak attack erases a capitol or side from Erfworld he will lose a lot of mercenary and telecommunications income. At that point he will be unable to support his mercenary fleet of archons unless he goes out and takes a few more cities, which would totally screw with Charlie's plan, and his personal style (no warlords, no one who knows his secrets, no one to betray him, more security, more money).

This is even worse if he does it to GK right now, because then how scary will he look to the rest of the world? Everyone would form a royal coalition to go kill Charlie.
User avatar
Sylvan
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:55 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 62

Postby Shuuwki » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:01 am

the_tick_rules wrote:That's what I've been saying. Charlie is no doubt powerful but he's not a world ending power in terms of direct military force, but he's not playing it that way... probably. His strength is that everyone needs him, or thinks they do, so nobody is currently willing to go about the hugely costful war to crush him. Or they think if they don't hire him someone else will. That's also his weakness, with only one city his side MUST live off mercenary pay and his percieved neutral status, so they wouldn't even need to fight him, simply stop paying him and he'd starve or have to start conquering and loose his status and become just another side. He doesn't like parson because parson is rocking the nice stable system that keeps charlies pockets full.


I think that Charlie's wheeling-and-dealing sense is very suited to a side with a lot of influence over Natural Allies. Do we know where he stands on that facet?
Shuuwki
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:51 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 62

Postby kefkakrazy » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:30 am

What Charlie's ability to mess with Natural Allies is?

Not really. We know that "something" has taken the Gobwin out of Gobwin Knob, and we know that the Mathamancy bracer gives the odds that Charlie has something to do with it as being very high.

We also know that the Plaid Tribe was wiped out when their Natural Allies broke alliance and attacked them; Parson interrogated a Hobgobwin about it, but the nature of that text update implied that the Hobgobwin was lying/holding info back.
kefkakrazy
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:41 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 62

Postby kineticdragon » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:49 am

Apologies if its been said: I think the scroll that summoned (page 13) Parson was blue, and this scroll looks to be the same color (but with different ends). Maybe its time for summoning some other outside forces to complete... Or are all of the scrolls in the world blue?
kineticdragon
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:12 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 62

Postby Calemyr » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:58 am

For my part, I still hold with the theory that Charlescomm is a bubble side run by a barbarian with a tool. He has no treasury, just a purse, so he needs to earn his upkeep every round and cannot keep much of any excess income, so it's more or less spend it or lose it. Perhaps there's the added complication that he needs to pop more Archons to earn the upkeep for the ones he has, so he he is forced to keep growing and expanding in order to support himself. It's a simple answer that seems to cover all the bases. Naturally, its status as a "simple" answer renders it obviously invalid, as Erfworld doesn't do simple, but it's still a solid enough theory for the time being.
Calemyr
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:40 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 62

Postby Lamech » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:31 pm

kineticdragon wrote:Apologies if its been said: I think the scroll that summoned (page 13) Parson was blue, and this scroll looks to be the same color (but with different ends). Maybe its time for summoning some other outside forces to complete... Or are all of the scrolls in the world blue?
Betting its a banishment scroll. He can't really attack now, the thinkamancers are coming, even if he killed Parson then what? First Wanda decrypts him. And Jojo. Charlie is held responsible for croaking the Hippiemancer Parson, the thinkamancers "read" Jojo and Parson's mind and confirm that Parson was only going to take the Jetstone portal after the city fell. Also that Jojo was working for Charlie. And that Charlie basically just destroyed the MK's neutrality. Charlie peeves the MK, hands GK a caster and accomplishes nothing.

A banishment scroll on the other hand wouldn't ping as an attack if Parson accepted it willingly. And if Parson accepts it willingly then its not like re-summoning someone who just showed he doesn't care will help anything. Its an attack on the Parson conspiracy and GK, but not Parson.
Lamech
 
Posts: 1374
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:23 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 62

Postby Hanyo » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:41 pm

*sigh* I hope the next one is up soon, to relieve the tension. This thread is becoming much too wound-up and snarky.
Hanyo
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 12:17 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 62

Postby Infidel » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:50 pm

Hah! I was right! carneymancer. Although my guess was based mostly on the circus cover. I'm still a bit fuzzy on what a carneymancer does, but my latest prediction is, that scroll is going to set Parson free to be his own side. Because the only people with free will in Erfworld are rulers....yea, that's a fuzzy tree.

Gah, I hate posting this late. Especially when I won't be able to read replies as my ship goes right back out tomarrow. If you want a reply just send me a message.

I also hate posting without enough time to read the entire thread, but 14 pages is a bit much, when I have severly limited time. But if someone else suggested this, it didn't invite enough counter speculation to last to this page. I did see dispell/banashment scroll was the first option suggested. I don't see it.
Who is that beautiful red-headed devil,
Stabs you in the heart so that she can level?
It's Scarlet!
- BC
User avatar
Infidel
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 416
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 1:22 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 62

Postby drachefly » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:41 pm

Oberon wrote:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:You don't know what Predictamancy does and doesn't do.
We do know what has been revealed about predictamancy, and nothing revealed points to predictamancy do anything other than stating that some event will occur. No who, no when, no how, no why. ... Unless the story states or even hints as such a capability, it cannot be held out as a valid counter-argument.


Marie's predictamancy was specific enough on time-frame to indicate which cities Jack should veil. I consider that a strong hint. Later on, Marie knew that her prophecy was coming true at that very moment, before seeing Sizemore.
User avatar
drachefly
 
Posts: 1592
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:36 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 62

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:00 pm

Oberon wrote:Charlie ending turn amongst hostiles is *ahem* holding the idiot ball.


Oh no. Begun, the Charlie war has.

Hanyo wrote:*sigh* I hope the next one is up soon, to relieve the tension. This thread is becoming much too wound-up and snarky.


Why dear sir, madam, hermaphrodite or executive transvestite, I do believe you have yet to spend considerable time in this venue. With said time, you will come to see what a truly charming establishment this is. Pay no heed to the regulars jabbing each other, in matter of fact there is only one individual behind it all.

Sylvan wrote:The moment Charlie sneak attack erases a capitol or side from Erfworld he will lose a lot of mercenary and telecommunications income.


How do you know? Charlie was prepared to take Haggar off the map (at the very least it was a credible bluff), and seeing how there are, actually, quite a lot of sides in just the supposedly small part of Erfworld we're privy to, indicates that your argument is based on shaky premises.

A long version:

Spoiler: show
Look at it another way. IF Charlie would fear that erasing a side would hurt income, and would be in a position to do what I suggest next, then Charlescomm would interfere to prevent sides from being wiped out. A-ha! I hear you say, look at Jetstone! Quite, quite. Now look at Faq, the Plaid tribe, or for that matter GK pre-volcano. I'll need to look and see whether there are other wipeouts (Unaroyal is exempt from the count, on political reasons; Charlie was not allowed to interfere there).

Instead of throwing spanners in the works for the coalition (RCC, vol. 1), Charlescomm doesn't actually do anything to preserve GK. Faq is allowed to fall, moreso, Charlie may have had a hand in there according to some, and it's only later that, at great personal cost, Charlie pitches in to rebuild it.


A shorter version: sides come and go. Charlie doesn't seem much moved by this process to prevent it. Since sides come and go, sides disappearing is not necessarily a hit to income.

Sylvan wrote:This is even worse if he does it to GK right now, because then how scary will he look to the rest of the world? Everyone would form a royal coalition to go kill Charlie.


This fits with your previous idea not at all, as far as I can tell. In your first argument, you claim erasing a side means Charlie has one less customer. But GK doesn't hire Charlie, nor does anyone who fights GK! (Jillian is a money-sink).

Also, if we are to discuss decapitation strikes, how about going the whole hog on them and try to make them so that no one is left to point fingers? If nobody is left to put the blame on Charlie for GK's disapperarance, then hey, Charlie is squeaky clean.

DoctorJest wrote:It's been made pretty clear that Charlescomm only really survives as a side by appearing to be both neutral and mercenary. Being an opportunistic weasel only enhances the mercenary reputation. Doing decapitation strikes against leaders of sides unbidden would threaten the image of neutrality and start making other sides nervous about your true motives.


I think there are several discussions going on here.

One of them is about Charlie making a headshot on GK. Ok, then how about this- if Charlie could take out Stanley in an empty forest, would anyone hear a sound?

More seriously, the question should not be "is it reasonable for Charlescomm to headshot GK?". Because that's an obvious "YES, it's worth considering what means are at hand and their consequences". The question should be "could Charlie pull a headshot on GK and leave no direct evidence for anyone else?"
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
User avatar
BLANDCorporatio
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 3446
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:24 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 62

Postby gazes_also » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:17 pm

Oberon wrote:To date we've seen one instance where Charlie, in a great position to attack (the bracer provided the number of archons he'd need to win 100%), was persuaded instead to stand by and watch. He thought he was all clever i.e. "Oh, no! I got paid to make it a no win situation!", but instead he was the one begging for a new deal and getting the tuna fish in return i.e. "Sorry, Charlie" <all archons burn and die>. I agree with your assessment: This was criminally stupid.


I completely disagree with his standing back as evidence of Charlie's "stupidity". He was faced with a new, unknown factor in the world, he could have just stomped it out of existence, instead he was sufficiently curious to decide to wait and see what it was capable of, he found out that it's capabilities were far greater than he had anticipated. Making decisions on available information, which in hindsight turn out to be bad decisions is not stupid; doing the same thing again is. Charlie, having got a better measure of his adversary, has been working on a highly convoluted plan hidden by fronts which has a key objective of getting Parson/the bracer. The first casualty of action is always The Plan, and that has proved to be the case so far, but I don't think Charlie will underestimate Parson again, and longterm he may consider the loss of those Archons good value if he gets Parson.
Of course, since we know that Parson really wanted to play for the bad guys in the situation, the smart move would have been for Charlie to be a complete B@##%^d and ruthlessly destroy GK with a massive force after saying he would stand down; that would have endeared him to Parson.
User avatar
gazes_also
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:33 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 62

Postby Oberon » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:57 pm

DoctorJest wrote:And fight Jillian and TV's forces for it while he's at it?

It's been made pretty clear that Charlescomm only really survives as a side by appearing to be both neutral and mercenary. Being an opportunistic weasel only enhances the mercenary reputation. Doing decapitation strikes against leaders of sides unbidden would threaten the image of neutrality and start making other sides nervous about your true motives. When your customers stop seeing you as an asset and instead as a threat, then you have a problem.

So as long as everyone thinks that Charley will only do specifically what he's being paid to do, Charley is seen as a resource, not a threat. If Charley starts acting like an Overlord intent on some sort of endgame beyond providing his services, then that's a risk. Charley doesn't like risks.
The only problem with your problem with Charlie doing this thing is that Charlie planned to do exactly this thing. Isn't it hard to justify a "Charlie must operate a certain way for reasons X, Y, and Z", when Charlie himself has contradicted reasons X, Y, and Z?
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
Oberon
 
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 62

Postby Oberon » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:46 pm

Sylvan wrote:The moment Charlie sneak attack erases a capitol or side from Erfworld he will lose a lot of mercenary and telecommunications income. At that point he will be unable to support his mercenary fleet of archons unless he goes out and takes a few more cities, which would totally screw with Charlie's plan, and his personal style (no warlords, no one who knows his secrets, no one to betray him, more security, more money).
Oh, you think so? How would anyone know? Why would side X place Charlie on their "do not hire" list because side Y suddenly went neutral? And even after wrangling with all of the neighboring sides to scoop up the now-neutral frozen cities of the former side Y, and finding the former side Y capitol razed, why would side X blame Charlie? How would they discover who to blame, if they even bothered to give it much thought? What resources would they consider investing into discovering why an extinct side was extinct, when all is war around them and there are so many other ordinary but necessary draws upon their available resources?
gazes_also wrote:I completely disagree with his standing back as evidence of Charlie's "stupidity". He was faced with a new, unknown factor in the world, he could have just stomped it out of existence, instead he was sufficiently curious to decide to wait and see what it was capable of, he found out that it's capabilities were far greater than he had anticipated. Making decisions on available information, which in hindsight turn out to be bad decisions is not stupid; doing the same thing again is.
Ya'know, I believe I'll have to retract my earlier in the face of your argument. Upon closer consideration after the points you raise, I agree that Charlie had no idea that his archons would be at risk, all that was at risk was the bracer and Parson, and from Ansom we learned that Parson was a protected asset, and Parson of course wore the bracer. It's hard to plan for a tri-mancer spell, they fight crime! So you've convinced me, Charlie ending turn was not (*ahem*) holding the idiot ball.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
Oberon
 
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 62

Postby multilis » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:31 pm

Oberon wrote:I agree with your assessment: This was criminally stupid.

Charlie on the offensive is a force all sides need to be prepared to recon with. Charlie ending turn amongst hostiles is *ahem* holding the idiot ball. He had only the tiny possibility of also gaining the 'pliers to go on for his decision to end turn.

I don't agree.

Awakening volcano was a wild card that could have happened either way... charlie attacks GK, GK awakens volcano, same ending with only difference that parson doesn't get to try as many less desperate plans first.

Let us suppose Charlie's main goal is to win/defeat all other sides. If other sides realise that you are nearly strong enough to do so, they gang up on you. Even magic kingdom may drop neutrality to stop you, they are already losing some neutrality against GK (not selling scrolls, etc), and some thinkomancer neutrality against charlie because he is too strong.

(Taking pliers makes him more obvious target than quietly bankrupting Jetstone, so he make deal with Ansom)

So you want them to kill each other rather than kill you, while you quietly grow stronger, and *hide* your strength... that is main goal.

GK being able to put up a good fight meant more of Jetstone would be weaker rather than stronger.

(A multiplayer game like this against skilled human players tends to be a stable pattern including stop the strongest guy, till some faction quietly amasses enough force to attempt blitz/take over the world. Once he goes for power there is still some politics in strongest guy trying to convince weaker sides to wait/let someone else stop me so you can win)
multilis
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:57 am

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest