Book 2 – Text Updates 050

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 050

Postby Beeskee » Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:59 am

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:He did know they were in the atrium, mere meters away from the tower stairs


Yeah, I worded it funny, didn't mean to make it sound like he didn't know. He got a good look through the doors before they were barred, but even if he didn't, someone else should have seen and reported it to him. That's more along the lines of what I meant.


He's not stupid, just had bad timing, or bad luck, or bad fate, or whatever. :D
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 050

Postby Sixty » Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:26 am

The.Healing.Mage wrote:
Dancing Cthulhu wrote:or, if they want to use their breath weapons and risk hitting the purples blocking the way


Before this update did we have confirmation about friendly fire? (It's on, as Artemis proved.)


Yeah, Duke Antium was croaked by an arrow from his own side right before he was about to attack Wanda.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 050

Postby Lamech » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:23 am

BakaGrappler wrote:And you know what is awesome? If Ansom had taken Artemis with him as a second in command instead of Webinar then Parson would have lost the Battle for Gobwin's Knob, since Sizemore just barely won against Webinar's leadership bonus in the tunnels. If a Warlord like Artemis, with her level 7 bonus that is comparable to that of the other Warlords that Webinar had said had higher bonuses than him, had been in those tunnels, Sizemore would have bought it, and Parson's plan would have fallen apart. Just another instance of how Royals are always hamstringing themselves.
Then... Ansom would have been without Jillians air units, he wouldn't have found the dwagons, would have died in the forest. At that point the arkenpliers would have fallen to Wanda. At which point Ansom and Wanda could stack up for a superior bonus and simply wipe the coalition. GK would be down its pool of lava and an archon pack, and up a pack of marbits, goblins, dwagons and the TRIMANCER LINK. The alliance would have been up knowledge about decryption. All in all I call this a win for GK. Sure knowing what your enemy can do is nice, but knowing absolutely everything about the battle field is nicer; although you could make an argument for the coalition coming out ahead.

But no Artemis would not have made the difference in the tunnels, because she wouldn't get that chance. Jillian made the difference in the air without that it would have been a wipe. More importantly Webinar wasn't close to winning. Sizemore could have just tunnel away no matter what, and besides he had loads of spare juice. Even if they got forced out... woo? Stanley is gone and GK is partying in FAQ. I bet Parson could rake in tons of cash with the mathamancy bracer if he felt like it; Charlie would even advertise for him since how is the rest of erf going to call Parson?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 050

Postby Balerion » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:39 am

Beeskee wrote:I'm guessing the thing with the side streets makes more sense if they were facing a conventional enemy. Parson will throw a big wrench into every plan but against a regular Erfworld warlord it makes sense. With decryption (or even plain vanilla uncroaking) GK's plan to take the dungeons serves to strengthen them and Jetstone knows it, Jetstone warlords will probably imagine them massing their troops below before taking the upper city the same way. If GK does this, they will probably lead the charge with high-level units. In which case, you don't want your level 1s taking the spearhead of the assault. That just gives GK more uncroaked/decrypted units to play with. Moving the level 1s to the side streets and having them flank whatever battle force GK comes charging out with, while meeting that same force head-on with wall of high-level units to absorb the brunt of the attack, is a perfectly viable strategy.


My problem with moving off the level ones like that is it would make them a really tempting target to the dwagons, or even potentially wanda's troops.They would be separate from the main force, and its not like Jetstone can send troops to reinforce them when they absolutely have to protect the tower. At least when they are mixed in with the main army, they get some level of protection and have a better chance of doing something. Flanking might work, but its risky; should GK find them before the attack, they get crushed out of hand and decrypted, and even if it does work... they are only level 1s.

I think the problem is that level 1s are pretty much useless in a decryption/uncroaking situation. Sending them out of the city might be best :P. or mixing them in a way as to get support from elites, or just put them at the rear.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 050

Postby Beeskee » Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:24 am

Part of the situation to consider is the mechanics of combat in Erfworld. I don't think GK can actually leave the garrison zone at the moment. So the side streets, outside the garrison, are a reasonable place to stash their weaker units. That is "the back" currently, since GK's units are all roughly in the middle of the city, inside the garrison. If Slately ever gets around to getting the heck out of there, GK may be able to pursue them, not sure how the mechanics work there. We saw things from the other side, with GK defending, and defenders can move around freely even off-turn, but I think I remember that attackers were restricted in movement.

Artemis' problem was with the other warlords all trying to regroup with their assigned units. (which is probably a mix of mostly lower level units and a few mid to high levels) Artemis is thinking, "Don't bother with that, group them by levels with weaker units further away from danger, and the strong units in front to attack."

I agree about the lower level units being more of a liability than an asset for Jetstone. As we already saw, Jetstone's front lines are likely to become GK's front lines, unless Jetstone meets GK with a significant force which can overwhelm GK. The dwagons are all on the ground tho, and the Archons can't attack from the air when it's not GK's turn. So as long as the low-level folks aren't in the front lines, they are reasonably safe. Well, about as safe as they can be in a city that is about to fall with their king still in it, and with a lot of their former allies decrypted and passing on knowledge of the city and defenses, nevermind that Parson is hopefully about to come through the gate and redefine 'pwnage', 'epic', 'uber' and 'what the hell was that?'


I *think* this is the current situation, more or less:

Image

Except that Artemis has now moved toward Sylvia with her units.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 050

Postby Dr Pepper » Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:41 am

"Do you hear barrels?" Rofl!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 050

Postby BakaGrappler » Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:57 am

Lamech wrote:Then... Ansom would have been without Jillians air units, he wouldn't have found the dwagons, would have died in the forest. At that point the arkenpliers would have fallen to Wanda. At which point Ansom and Wanda could stack up for a superior bonus and simply wipe the coalition. GK would be down its pool of lava and an archon pack, and up a pack of marbits, goblins, dwagons and the TRIMANCER LINK. The alliance would have been up knowledge about decryption. All in all I call this a win for GK. Sure knowing what your enemy can do is nice, but knowing absolutely everything about the battle field is nicer; although you could make an argument for the coalition coming out ahead.

But no Artemis would not have made the difference in the tunnels, because she wouldn't get that chance. Jillian made the difference in the air without that it would have been a wipe. More importantly Webinar wasn't close to winning. Sizemore could have just tunnel away no matter what, and besides he had loads of spare juice. Even if they got forced out... woo? Stanley is gone and GK is partying in FAQ. I bet Parson could rake in tons of cash with the mathamancy bracer if he felt like it; Charlie would even advertise for him since how is the rest of erf going to call Parson?


That theoretic timeline doesn't actually make sense in the slightest. Jillian joining the coalition and acting the way she did was because of her vendettas and Wanda's suggestion spells. Webinar's presence had nothing to do with any action that Jillian took. You're trolling is flawed, grasshopper.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 050

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:54 am

Beeskee wrote:Part of the situation to consider is the mechanics of combat in Erfworld. I don't think GK can actually leave the garrison zone at the moment. So the side streets, outside the garrison, are a reasonable place to stash their weaker units. That is "the back" currently, since GK's units are all roughly in the middle of the city, inside the garrison. If Slately ever gets around to getting the heck out of there, GK may be able to pursue them, not sure how the mechanics work there. We saw things from the other side, with GK defending, and defenders can move around freely even off-turn, but I think I remember that attackers were restricted in movement.


That sounds about right, and would fit in with Trems plan - once Slately is out of the garrison he would be safe from any direct threat, and Trem would only attempt to retake it the garrirson after Slately was out of the city and he felt their was a a good chance he could defeat Wanda's forces. If not he was going to retreat. His plan didn't sound like he ever intended to be fighting in main street or side streets or anywhere else in the city.

I *think* this is the current situation, more or less:

Image

Except that Artemis has now moved toward Sylvia with her units.


That is brilliant.

Beeskee wrote:
Dancing Cthulhu wrote:He did know they were in the atrium, mere meters away from the tower stairs


Yeah, I worded it funny, didn't mean to make it sound like he didn't know. He got a good look through the doors before they were barred, but even if he didn't, someone else should have seen and reported it to him. That's more along the lines of what I meant.

He's not stupid, just had bad timing, or bad luck, or bad fate, or whatever. :D


Ah, I've got you now. Agreed, Trem to me seems more to be suffering from some bad luck (and Slately, though I can't hold a grudge against the newly spirited little turnip, I have grown fond of him and hope he gets an really good final act, if a final act he is destined to get) rather then suffering for being dumb. Damn you Forthewin, using up all Jetstones reserves of princely luck!

Lamech wrote:Then... Ansom would have been without Jillians air units, he wouldn't have found the dwagons, would have died in the forest. At that point the arkenpliers would have fallen to Wanda. At which point Ansom and Wanda could stack up for a superior bonus and simply wipe the coalition. GK would be down its pool of lava and an archon pack, and up a pack of marbits, goblins, dwagons and the TRIMANCER LINK. The alliance would have been up knowledge about decryption. All in all I call this a win for GK. Sure knowing what your enemy can do is nice, but knowing absolutely everything about the battle field is nicer; although you could make an argument for the coalition coming out ahead.

But no Artemis would not have made the difference in the tunnels, because she wouldn't get that chance. Jillian made the difference in the air without that it would have been a wipe. More importantly Webinar wasn't close to winning. Sizemore could have just tunnel away no matter what, and besides he had loads of spare juice. Even if they got forced out... woo? Stanley is gone and GK is partying in FAQ. I bet Parson could rake in tons of cash with the mathamancy bracer if he felt like it; Charlie would even advertise for him since how is the rest of erf going to call Parson?


Some things might have been very different (one mentioned already being if Artemis had been there instead of Webinar) but I would think Jillian still would have been part of the coalition. Then again if Ansom and Artemis had been romantically involved Jillian might not have developed the same feelings for him (or she would develop unrequited love for him and much hate for Artemis) and so not have disobeyed orders in the same way. But then again.... arrgh, too many variables.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 050

Postby Lamech » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:04 pm

BakaGrappler wrote:That theoretic timeline doesn't actually make sense in the slightest. Jillian joining the coalition and acting the way she did was because of her vendettas and Wanda's suggestion spells. Webinar's presence had nothing to do with any action that Jillian took. You're trolling is flawed, grasshopper.
I was operating under the assumption one of the reasons that Jillian got into the coalition was Ansom had a crush on her, and she would not have been in otherwise. I suppose we could have a couple scenario's with her joining.
-We could assume she joined anyway, but unless she had love for (the now taken Ansom) she would have floated right on by those dwagons. At which point Ansom and co gets rescued*, we have a bunch of leaderless forest units which of course get popped. (And in all likelihood animated by Wanda.) Then Parson can wipe the rest of the siege. And repeat the tactic a few more times as the column closes, since they can't actually hit dwagons in GK (if they use the air units Wanda could roast all most all of them.) Parson has no reason to tell Charlie about his super-math powers, so the archons don't interfere beyond those three... Finally the tunnel battle? Parson can send all five of his warlords down, they'll have total informational superiority with the table, Wanda can still decrypt as soon as they have however many corpses they want. Assume GK retreats. Then we get a repeat of the courtyard battle, except GK has dwagons and the coalition is down archons. (If the coalition tries to contest the sky we'll get a repeat of the tower; everything was lost except for a couple bats, orlies, two archons, Jillian and Vinny, the dwagons will eat their faces off.) Ansom can't join the courtyard battle with out getting cwapped, flamed, shocked, gassed, bubbled, ect. and the coalition ends up TPK'd.

-If she DID have love for the now taken Ansom, well just look at her actions in regards to someone who rejects her: kidnapping and attempted mind-rape. Jillian could be worse then useless, but really too many factors...

*If Artemis came with Tarfu would get left behind. It won't save the siege though.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 050

Postby splexis » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:26 pm

Beeskee wrote:I *think* this is the current situation, more or less:

Image


Except that there are no tunnels/cellars in this city, sure.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 050

Postby effataigus » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:58 pm

Hahah, nice, Beeskee.

This could go very poorly for GK very soon. Right now we have Wanda and Jack hanging back from the main force just as Slately is contemplating charging into battle. This means that GK is missing the ability to decrypt, the dance-fight bonus, the decrypted-lead-by-Croakamancer bonus, the foolamancy option, and the artifact bonus.. all sacrificed so that Wanda can huddle near an escape hatch that may itself be on the verge of becoming the next hot zone.

Add to that that we just learned that GK's remaining leadership is in the crosshairs, and we might see a king, some warlords, and a couple of casters make mince-meat of our grounded dwagon friends. I hope KC survived the fall and is ready to jump in...

I wonder if Parson will think "oops, I bungled that one by splitting forces to come through the portal" rather than "well, it's a good thing I showed up to provide leadership when I did."
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 050

Postby quindraco » Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:10 pm

Could someone please explain the hamhawk joke? Google has nothing for me.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 050

Postby Beeskee » Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:44 pm

Glad folks like the map. ^.^

Edit: Something missing: The Atrium building should probably be pushed back a bit, and one of the main streets widened significantly, and labeled "Mainway" - maybe if someone with some ACTUAL art talent shows up, unless folks want another Horror That Came From MS Paint.


Dr Pepper wrote:"Do you hear barrels?" Rofl!


It just ended up looking SO much like Donkey Kong. :)


splexis wrote:Except that there are no tunnels/cellars in this city, sure.


I... didn't put any tunnels in the drawing. :D There ARE dungeons, which is where the portal is, along with Wanda, Jack, and an unpictured number of GK forces (formerly Jetstone forces) But yes, Spacerock has no tunnels, which means GK has it's back against the wall yet again.

For those wondering where the tunnels would be, they connect the dungeon part of the garrison to a spot outside the city. In addition the tunnels can be potential mines, etc, but the connection points are between the dungeons and outside.


quindraco wrote:Could someone please explain the hamhawk joke? Google has nothing for me.


Search for "ham hock". Basically it's a big chunk of ham. The bird in Erfworld is probably a large, meaty bird, or maybe a flying chunk of ham with wings, or even a flying pig given the nature of Erfworld puns.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 050

Postby Dr Pepper » Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:47 pm

quindraco wrote:Could someone please explain the hamhawk joke? Google has nothing for me.


Hamhawk=Ham Hock, a small chunk of ham.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 050

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:20 pm

effataigus wrote:I wonder if Parson will think "oops, I bungled that one by splitting forces to come through the portal" rather than "well, it's a good thing I showed up to provide leadership when I did."


I may be misremembering, but I don't think Parson is aware the forces are split like that. I believe Sylvia and the purples attacking the tower is all down to Wanda. Sylvia was asking about Parson's orders and Wanda told her she still had her (Wanda's) order, so get cracking on destroying the tower while everyone else headed down to the dungeons. Which made Sylvia pretty happy.

I would guess Parson never thought GK was going to get a quick kill on Slately through the destruction of the tower, hence his urgency in getting there himself (that this turn would end with a messy, closely fought ground battle where every opportunity needed to be grabbed swiftly seemed to be what he was expecting, and what Trem was expecting as well, though Trem was planning on avoiding it all together if it appeared to close).
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 050

Postby effataigus » Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:28 pm

Aye, a very good point, Dancing... we don't know how much about the current situation Parson knows vs. how much is just Wanda bringing fatalism to a tactics party.

However, we do know that Parson knows that units were sent to secure the portal room:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -03-04.jpg

We also know that some of the GK units, notably the dwagons, are not "tunnel capable."

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -02-23.jpg

If "tunnel INcapable" means the units can't fit inside a tunnel (as suggested by Gobwin Knob 1.0 only having Spidews, Twolls, and Dwagons for large units), then Parson should have enough information to know that his portal hopping is forcing GK to split its forces (and therefore deny a portion of the forces most of the available bonuses). Of course, another possible interpretation of tunnel incapable would be just that they don't fight well in tunnels.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 050

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:41 pm

effataigus wrote:Aye, a very good point, Dancing... we don't know how much about the current situation Parson knows vs. how much is just Wanda bringing fatalism to a tactics party.

However, we do know that Parson knows that units were sent to secure the portal room:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -03-04.jpg

We also know that some of the GK units, notably the dwagons, are not "tunnel capable."

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -02-23.jpg

If "tunnel INcapable" means the units can't fit inside a tunnel (as suggested by Gobwin Knob 1.0 only having Spidews, Twolls, and Dwagons for large units), then Parson should have enough information to know that his portal hopping is forcing GK to split its forces (and therefore deny a portion of the forces most of the available bonuses). Of course, another possible interpretation of tunnel incapable would be just that they don't fight well in tunnels.


Yes, that would make sense, Parson would certainly know at at least some forces have been split away from the Atrium in order to secure the portal. So Wanda took everything tunnel capable with her (all the infantry) and left all the dwagons with Sylvia. Since Parson isn't seen giving any orders about the troops not securing the portal maybe he was expecting Wanda would have them consolidate/defend the atrium till he arrived and then go from there, and not be pushing forward on the attack.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 050

Postby Lamech » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:52 pm

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
effataigus wrote:Aye, a very good point, Dancing... we don't know how much about the current situation Parson knows vs. how much is just Wanda bringing fatalism to a tactics party.

However, we do know that Parson knows that units were sent to secure the portal room:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -03-04.jpg

We also know that some of the GK units, notably the dwagons, are not "tunnel capable."

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -02-23.jpg

If "tunnel INcapable" means the units can't fit inside a tunnel (as suggested by Gobwin Knob 1.0 only having Spidews, Twolls, and Dwagons for large units), then Parson should have enough information to know that his portal hopping is forcing GK to split its forces (and therefore deny a portion of the forces most of the available bonuses). Of course, another possible interpretation of tunnel incapable would be just that they don't fight well in tunnels.


Yes, that would make sense, Parson would certainly know at at least some forces have been split away from the Atrium in order to secure the portal. So Wanda took everything tunnel capable with her (all the infantry) and left all the dwagons with Sylvia. Since Parson isn't seen giving any orders about the troops not securing the portal maybe he was expecting Wanda would have them consolidate/defend the atrium till he arrived and then go from there, and not be pushing forward on the attack.
Hitting targets of opportunity (Tram and co.) would seem to be the best way to defend against the units in the city and tower. Right now they are clumped and at a choke point against AoE. I would assume its fairly standard tactics to lock the choke point down. Then the debate comes if trying to go for the win would be more effective than throwing gas, fire, gum and smoke at enemies for protecting the dungeon. I don't think we can tell.

Regardless I think its a better plan than waiting for them to enter the atrium and attack you. If you can get free hits in take them.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 050

Postby BakaGrappler » Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:13 pm

You are also forgetting that the Dwagons have AoE breath weapons that heavily take advantage of the confined spaces, and their bulk makes it so they can crush units just by shifting their weight in such a small area. The best way to fight a Dwagon is to not fight on it's terms, in my opinion.

I think Artemis' move is the best one they can make at this point. Snipe the Warlords giving the Dwagons their leadership bonuses and then have the mook Stabbers take out the Dwagons as soon as they are weakened. Since Decrypted are Dusted, the countercharge would not have to deal with the corpses and would become a very big surprise for the Decrypted in the Atrium. Things could potentially become a horrifying bloodbath over a few square feet of space in that chokepoint.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 050

Postby djones520 » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:57 am

BakaGrappler wrote:You are also forgetting that the Dwagons have AoE breath weapons that heavily take advantage of the confined spaces, and their bulk makes it so they can crush units just by shifting their weight in such a small area. The best way to fight a Dwagon is to not fight on it's terms, in my opinion.

I think Artemis' move is the best one they can make at this point. Snipe the Warlords giving the Dwagons their leadership bonuses and then have the mook Stabbers take out the Dwagons as soon as they are weakened. Since Decrypted are Dusted, the countercharge would not have to deal with the corpses and would become a very big surprise for the Decrypted in the Atrium. Things could potentially become a horrifying bloodbath over a few square feet of space in that chokepoint.


Decent line of thought.

I wonder if an unconcious Chief Warlord still gives a bonus?
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