Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby kreszantas » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:25 pm

Hanyo wrote:
Quimper wrote:They haven't gotten a single unit killed yet.


Wait, what? What about the whole stack of stabbers & other infantry that got croaked outside once Ansom was captured? What about all of the secondary cities that GK is losing THIS turn to FAQ? What about Captain Ford? What about Wrigley!?!?!

This turn has hardly been a cakewalk for GK . . .

R.I.P. Wrigley


There is no point in wasting time posting text to this "Quimper" and "Kriestor" they are wearing jaded glasses and have to violate the only rule on the forum to gain attention... "Don't be a dick"
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby zilfallon » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:50 am

@The.Healing.Mage:

Uhm...you misquoted, hard :D It was Kreistor who found it lame that the shot missed, and it was I the one who responded to them from the same viewpoint as you did.
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Violets are blue.

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:30 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Which is why I hope, should she survive the battle, Sylvia will see the light and start touring the world delivering lectures on the importance of work safety measures.


Finally, mandatory occupational health and safety courses I would actually look forward to! "My next slide shows the correct way to hold a sword while riding a dwagon and being shot at by the enemy. Notice the use of meat shields in order to avoid undue stress being placed upon your vital organs."

Though I fear that for every brush with death that doesn't take Sylvia down will just make her more recklessly confident (and I suspect many would want it any other way).

oslecamo2_temp wrote:It's a quite common tactic on strategy games and even real wars. Bring down the big important target if you see the oportunity even if you have to risk expendable troops. GK has other warlords should Scarlet fall. Jetstone doesn't have extra


It is a bit of a "history will judge you" situation - if Sylvia succeeds GK rejoices and everyone celebrates her bold leadership (on Wanda's orders) bringing them victory. Maybe some grizzled old veteran, all severe, cuts through the crowd, everyone goes quite, he growls "you got lucky out there", then breaks into a smile "but still - a damn good job kid" and everyone cheers again.*

But if she doesn't... well, that is where my questioning comes in. Is Sylvia conducting this in a way that maximizes the chances of bringing down the tower and Slately while minimizing the risk to her forces in the event she doesn't get Slately? Or is she just overly eager for a fight?

Because those aren't expendable troops she has there. They are all GK has. Wanda and Parson are nigh irreplaceable, and they are both stuck in Spacerock (or soon will be, maybe). Jack, Sylvia etc are all highly valuable troops not easily replaced. Their only chance, as far as they know, is to win the battle for Spacerock (since they don't know Trem was considering retreating). There are no reinforcements coming except for Parson (and anything Wanda happens to be able to decrypt), who needs the forces they have there to have a chance of winning. Every dwagon or level six warlord that dies before he arrives is a dwagon or level six warlord he isn't going to have to work with, which makes his task that bit more difficult.

Trems shooting down his troops and then charging towards the dwagons-tactical genius that got unlucky!


I apologize for retreading a topic discussed in a previous thread, but you do realize that constantly repeating "Trem charged towards the dwagons, what an idiot" wont actually make it true? Especially when it is so easily disproved with a quick look at just one page from the comic?

Sylvia taking down the most important enemy position, knocking out the enemy CWL as bonus, at the expense of leting her flanks exposed-OMG foolish warlord!


Only foolish warlord if Parson gets there and finds he has already lost some purples with little loss on the enemy part making the battle that much harder to win. And knocking out Trem is a bonus, since she didn't know her attack would have that affect since she didn't even know he was even there.

*Which reminds me, where is Warlord I. Brows?! Last I saw of him he was descending the stairs with Trem. Hope he is ok.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:00 am

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:It's a quite common tactic on strategy games and even real wars. Bring down the big important target if you see the oportunity even if you have to risk expendable troops. GK has other warlords should Scarlet fall. Jetstone doesn't have extra


It is a bit of a "history will judge you" situation - if Sylvia succeeds GK rejoices and everyone celebrates her bold leadership (on Wanda's orders) bringing them victory. Maybe some grizzled old veteran, all severe, cuts through the crowd, everyone goes quite, he growls "you got lucky out there", then breaks into a smile "but still - a damn good job kid" and everyone cheers again.*

But if she doesn't... well, that is where my questioning comes in. Is Sylvia conducting this in a way that maximizes the chances of bringing down the tower and Slately while minimizing the risk to her forces in the event she doesn't get Slately? Or is she just overly eager for a fight?

You can't always play safe. Sometimes you need to take risks. The tower is in front of her, the enemy leader is in the tower, and time is running out. Every second Sylvia would spend protecting her flanks would be a second more for Slatley to run/fly away or Jetstone to mount a proper counter attack.

Not to mention, what would stop Artemis from simply sniping Sylvia even if she had set up flanks? Meat shield infantry won't do you any good against sneak attack arrows if you're standing on a tall dwagon. ;)


Dancing Cthulhu wrote:Because those aren't expendable troops she has there. They are all GK has. Wanda and Parson are nigh irreplaceable, and they are both stuck in Spacerock (or soon will be, maybe). Jack, Sylvia etc are all highly valuable troops not easily replaced. Their only chance, as far as they know, is to win the battle for Spacerock (since they don't know Trem was considering retreating). There are no reinforcements coming except for Parson (and anything Wanda happens to be able to decrypt), who needs the forces they have there to have a chance of winning. Every dwagon or level six warlord that dies before he arrives is a dwagon or level six warlord he isn't going to have to work with, which makes his task that bit more difficult.

Wanda and Jack are safe. They can just run away trough the magic kindom portal at any time. And neither of them knows Hamster is coming.

Meanwhile the dwagons and remaining units may as well take the ofensive. The enemy leader is holed in the tower and they have siege. GK has more warlords and dwagons on the field, Jetstone doesn't have extra towers or kings. What part of that don't you understand?

This is, it's not like Jetstone can even get reinforcments of their own right now. This is a grinding battle, and GK has the upper hand with the pliers.

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
Trems shooting down his troops and then charging towards the dwagons-tactical genius that got unlucky!


I apologize for retreading a topic discussed in a previous thread, but you do realize that constantly repeating "Trem charged towards the dwagons, what an idiot" wont actually make it true? Especially when it is so easily disproved with a quick look at just one page from the comic.

Make up whatever justifications you want, Trems still knocked himself out and wounded several of his own units only due to his own reckless actions and the enemy taking free shots when a juicy target positioned itself in their range of fire. That's what the comics prove if you take more than a quick look. ;)

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
Sylvia taking down the most important enemy position, knocking out the enemy CWL as bonus, at the expense of leting her flanks exposed-OMG foolish warlord!


Only foolish warlord if Parson gets there and finds he has already lost some purples with little loss on the enemy part making the battle that much harder to win. And knocking out Trem is a bonus, since she didn't know her attack would have that affect since she didn't even know he was even there.


Again, Sylvia doesn't know Hamster is coming. And her plan worked. Even if Artemis had headshooted Sylvia, the tower would be crumbling down, precisely because Sylvia didn't waste time seting up flanks and went straight for the enemy throat. Even if she had died(again), she would remembered as the noble sacrifice that took down the enemy's strongest position.

If she had wasted time seting up flanks, then Trems would still be conscious, and/or Artemis would be free to snipe her down anyway.

Not to mention that now that Artemis revealed her position, she's in for a world of hurt. I see at least six dwagons on that picture, several warlords, and GK can now bring extra reinforcments from the dungeon. Let's see how long Artemis careful flanks hold now shall we? :twisted:

Kinda ironic, if Artemis hadn't wasted so much time being careful, she may have just managed to stop Sylvia on time! :lol:
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:30 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Not to mention, what would stop Artemis from simply sniping Sylvia even if she had set up flanks? Meat shield infantry won't do you any good against sneak attack arrows if you're standing on a tall dwagon. ;)


Nothing, maybe, although Artemis I guess feels there is something she could have done (or more she could be doing to guard from certain types of attacks at least, you might not be safe from all, but every bit helps).

Wanda and Jack are safe. They can just run away trough the magic kindom portal at any time. And neither of them knows Hamster is coming.


They do, actually - text update 46 http://www.erfworld.com/page/11/

Meanwhile the dwagons and remaining units may as well take the ofensive. The enemy leader is holed in the tower and they have siege. GK has more warlords and dwagons on the field, Jetstone doesn't have extra towers or kings. What part of that don't you understand?


GK doesn't have more warlords (from decrypted Antium "He knew Jetstone's forces here were massive, and their leadership was impressive even without mighty Ossomer." and from Trem "We outnumber them and have greater available leadership"). And true, Jetstone only has one king, so it is worth the shot if you have a good chance of getting him and the losses you take wont totally screw you chances of still winning the city if you happen to not get him (which they nearly didn't, and still might not).

Or big picture kind of stuff. I imagine Parson running calcs along the lines of "What are the chances of us winning the battle for the city with current forces"/"What are the chances of us croaking Slately in his tower with X forces"/"What kind of losses are we likely to take attacking the tower"/"If we don't manage to croak Slately and suffer predicted losses what are our chances of us winning the battle for the city".

Then after that a decision would be made (funny, I usually say Wanda puts far to much faith in Parson, he is only human, but here I am saying it probably would have been best to be careful with the limited number of heavies available to them and wait for Parson's plan). Remembering what Wanda herself says - ""I know the enemy forces here are strong. I know that they may counterattack at any moment. In truth, I have very little idea how to win this city. But Lord Parson will be here soon." So, it doesn't exactly sound like Wanda is confident Sylvia will get them an insta-win with a King kill.

This is, it's not like Jetstone can even get reinforcments of their own right now. This is a grinding battle, and GK has the upper hand with the pliers.


Which is why Trem thinks they have a chance but was prepared to retreat from Spacerock rather then retaking the garrison if he judged the likelihood of victory to be too close. If. A big part of GK current strength is they also have a number of dwagons (while Jetstone left a big chunk of their heavies in the field with no remaining move) but little in the way of infantry at the moment (compared to the masses Jetstone has). They are off turn which also limits there offensive capabilities

The pliers have entered into everyones thinking, but we don't know their limit, which is a problem when a numerically superior force (with greater available leadership) is surging forward - Wanda can't be in the front lines where the push of the pike is occurring, which is also where the dead guys are. If Wanda is even planning on contributing, she does say (in the same update I linked to above), that she doesn't intend to leave the portal room just in case.

Make up whatever justifications you want, Trems still knocked himself out and wounded several of his own units only due to his own reckless actions and the enemy taking free shots when a juicy target positioned itself in their range of fire. That's what the comics prove if you take more than a quick look. ;)


Then why not simply say that is what you think as opposed to, well, saying Trem did something he didn't (or, if you like, making stuff up). And I'm still not quite sure what the reckless action is. This whole post you've been pointing out that you feel Sylvia's best course of action was to take a hand full of purple dwagons and rush tower, killing Slately, no matter the risk, while Trem's best course of action apparently is to not get the king to safety (which is what he was doing, in the only place it could be done).

Again, Sylvia doesn't know Hamster is coming. And her plan worked. Even if Artemis had headshooted Sylvia, the tower would be crumbling down, precisely because Sylvia didn't waste time seting up flanks and went straight for the enemy throat. Even if she had died(again), she would remembered as the noble sacrifice that took down the enemy's strongest position.


You do know the tower hasn't actually fallen yet. It is damaged, sure, but it is still standing and the seige dwagons (weak type) are about to get counterattacked (which I guess means a choice between defending themselves and trying to finish the tower off).

If she had wasted time seting up flanks, then Trems would still be conscious, and/or Artemis would be free to snipe her down anyway.


Maybe, maybe. Although if Trem were still conscious there might be a bit of heated debate going on between him and Artemis. ;)

Not to mention that now that Artemis revealed her position, she's in for a world of hurt. I see at least six dwagons on that picture, several warlords, and GK can now bring extra reinforcments from the dungeon. Let's see how long Artemis careful flanks hold now shall we? :twisted:


Not sure if Sylvia has brought several warlords with her (the guys surviving the fall were mainly hob heavies and knights, maybe some warlords but not alot, and Wanda took everything tunnel capable). I do wonder though if Artemis has done anything else with the troops Trem brought with him (what happened to that entire stack of noble warlords he and Oss had in the field?) or were holding nearby - they do have a lot, and a fair few knights, warlords in proximity.

Not sure about reinforcements from the dungeon either, time is of the essence and all that.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby MichaelR138 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:20 am

"And I really am enjoying reading Artemis, Rob's doing a very good job portraying her as a skilled, smart soldier and commander. Also very nice art on this update, compliments all round."


I am sorry but this is wrong, Artemis is skilled and has a lot of personal intelligence, but she is a hazard to her own side. She left her post with the archers, and they will need her bonuses and guidence very soon I am guessing. Why? Because she saw the prince stacking up HER Knights. She did not know what he was doing and whether or not it was tactically sound, what caused her to desert her post was simply seeing someone else commanding her units while she had to wait at her assigned post. In the military there is a formal charge for her actions: Dereliction of Duty. She quit her post on the battlefield without being properly relieved and is off trying to play the hero instead of doing her assigned duty. If Trem's attempt at the tower was foolhardy, Artemis' charge into the artrium with DAMAGED knights is idiocy. 8 knights into the teeth of 48 dwagons and a few dozen soldiers, yeah, that sounds like winning odds. She may buy Slately time to escape, but she has no idea that he is working on an airborne plan does she? Even if she did, she would have to weigh the odds of whether her personal Custer's charge is more valuable then her bonuses on the walls with the archers while she knocks down the high prized targets. Artemis is a loose cannon thinking she knows more then everyone around her while she actually only knows less then 10% of the tactical situation. She will hand some very nice Knights over to GK, and possibly her own services as well just when a high level warlord with an archery special might be very useful for shooting down flying monarchs and casters.

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:08 am

MichaelR138 wrote:
"And I really am enjoying reading Artemis, Rob's doing a very good job portraying her as a skilled, smart soldier and commander. Also very nice art on this update, compliments all round."


I am sorry but this is wrong, Artemis is skilled and has a lot of personal intelligence, but she is a hazard to her own side. She left her post with the archers, and they will need her bonuses and guidence very soon I am guessing. Why? Because she saw the prince stacking up HER Knights. She did not know what he was doing and whether or not it was tactically sound, what caused her to desert her post was simply seeing someone else commanding her units while she had to wait at her assigned post. In the military there is a formal charge for her actions: Dereliction of Duty. She quit her post on the battlefield without being properly relieved and is off trying to play the hero instead of doing her assigned duty. If Trem's attempt at the tower was foolhardy, Artemis' charge into the artrium with DAMAGED knights is idiocy. 8 knights into the teeth of 48 dwagons and a few dozen soldiers, yeah, that sounds like winning odds. She may buy Slately time to escape, but she has no idea that he is working on an airborne plan does she? Even if she did, she would have to weigh the odds of whether her personal Custer's charge is more valuable then her bonuses on the walls with the archers while she knocks down the high prized targets. Artemis is a loose cannon thinking she knows more then everyone around her while she actually only knows less then 10% of the tactical situation. She will hand some very nice Knights over to GK, and possibly her own services as well just when a high level warlord with an archery special might be very useful for shooting down flying monarchs and casters.

Michael


I do agree with some of that, kind of similar to what I was saying last time (she doesn't have all the facts and rushing in without them is a problem) but I meant now, in this update, she sounds like she is in her element and knows what she is doing and is being portrayed as doing it well which I am enjoying reading.

While her initial reasons for leaving the wall may well be wrong, she is probably better off there then with the archers now (who aren't immediately relevant to what is going on and might not be for some time), since nobody else has put there hand up to take over with Trem out of it for the time being. True, she doesn't know about the kings plan, but neither did Trem (so his hanging around the tower entrance made sense, as he was trying to get the king to safety).

I would like to know if she has done anything else with the other troops close by (since Trem had a pretty competent looking bodyguard with him and plenty of other troops in the vicinity.) I'm not sure she would be charging with just 8 knights (maybe she has the other forces waiting to attack till she was in position), but if she is at least she only has 6 purples to worry about for the time being. But still, not knowing Slately has a plan (an important part of which involves promoting Trem, who is also in danger) isn't too much of a black mark because, well, there was no way to know and now that she is there she would be compelled to do whatever she can to ensure her sides survival, which means doing whatever she can to preserve the tower and Slately and counterattacking does seem like the best option.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby the_tick_rules » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:52 pm

plus now we all get the fun of thinking about critical hits and the rules surrounding them.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby Lamech » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:38 pm

Then why not simply say that is what you think as opposed to, well, saying Trem did something he didn't (or, if you like, making stuff up). And I'm still not quite sure what the reckless action is. This whole post you've been pointing out that you feel Sylvia's best course of action was to take a hand full of purple dwagons and rush tower, killing Slately, no matter the risk, while Trem's best course of action apparently is to not get the king to safety (which is what he was doing, in the only place it could be done).
Here is the thing, the dwagons can't be placed in the tunnels. So where should we put them? In the tower requires an attack.
Okay so what about the atrium? Well we can put them close to the tower or away from the tower. Away from the tower? Well then any archers deploying out of the tower can start well away from the dwagons. (Something Artemis spent time to do) And units can spread out out flank and surround the dwagons before engaging, giving them better positioning and reducing the effect of AoE's. So the dwagons should be close to the tower. Okay so we have dwagons up close to the tower, should we attack or should we not attack? We should attack. It inflicts free damage to the tower. It has forced the hand of the king, forced the hand of Artemis reducing there options. It has removed Tram, and damaged knights.

So clearly we need to attack. The other option includes sitting next the tower wasting potential breathes, and sitting in the middle of the atrium to get surrounded, and swarmed. Maybe Sylvia didn't make the best tactical decisions about the details but I for one vote for not second guessing with our limited knowledge.

Furthermore Artemis and Tram have also made the correct options. The tower is about to fall; leadership must be removed (so the dwagons break off and go for units). Tram had to rescue the king while their was still time. Yes they are really bad options, charging into dwagons and abandoning archers, but the other option was the king's death.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby kreszantas » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:49 pm

effataigus wrote:Very interesting indeed... and exciting.

I wonder if the Tower of Ossomer crumbling refers to his actual turning to dust...

If so, I'm betting Jetstone will be very happy to have that carpet in a moment or two!

I am curious about this though:
the fate of the odd-shaped stone tile he had been dwelling upon moments ago.

I can't make sense of this. When had Ossomer been dwelling upon a stone on the tower? Maybe last turn, but Ossomer appears to have been near Exp. Bridge or in the air since then... did anyone understand what was meant by this?


This maybe a little late to answer this but my take on this comes from http://www.erfworld.com/2011/04/book-2-text-updates-047/ in that Ossomer is realizing that his own musing is not only relevent but playing out right in front of his eyes.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby Kreistor » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:23 pm

Kreistor...oops, not... BlandCorporation wrote:Now, disclaimer. I've not shot a serious modern bow, and those have mechanisms in place to make the draw more manageable for the average (read, unfit) person. However, if it's medieval-like bows we're talking about, which admittedly I didn't shoot either, some people (presumably historians, if I ever find the time to check up on exact sources) estimate the draw strength of a medieval longbow to be in the 60kg-force range, and recurved Mongol bows supposedly got as high as 90kg-force.

Which force would need to be delivered by one arm (think about it) several times a minute to make an efficient archer. I dare say, archers were probably more beefy than the cannon fodder swinging swords in the field. And more valuable.


Bland, the actual estimate on top end English Longbows is a 200 lb pull, so about 90kg. Though there are no surviving examples of bows that powerful (yew decays), long term bow use deforms the skeleton, and using skeletons from that era, they have determined how much tension would be required to deform the most severely deformed examples. The best surviving bows came out of a shipwreck (in mud with 0 oxygen, so they did not decay), and so may not have been the most powerful weapons the English had available.

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Extra disclaimer. I practise Kyuudo, that still uses old-style bows whitout any of those fancy modern firing mechanisms, and they do demand a lot of strenght to properly draw a single time.

But don't discount the cannon fodder swinging swords either, as they were expected to run half the way across the battlefield with armor and said swords, so they had to have some pretty good muscles as well.

In particular I remember reports of the ancient Japan-Korea war where the korean archers would only have time to loose one or two volleys before the samurais got in melee and started stabbing left and right. And armor had a much better chance of stoping an arrow hit than a sword/spear blow.



Oslesamo, Korea is not known for having an archery history, and should not be considered examples of trained troops. I once watched a crossbow vs. archer competition on one documentary, and the archer ripped off 1/3 seconds from a back quiver, while the crossbowman did 1/6 seconds.

But you are grossly overestimating footman armor. Most footmen wore boiled leather, not steel. Even in the best circumstances, a small unit might be equipped with chainmail, but chain has been shown to be woefully deficient defense against piercing weapons like an arrow, bolt, or thin pointed sword thrust. Plate armor infantry would be extremely rare on infantry, since it was so expensive, you'd be able to easily afford a horse, too. But even Plate has problems with piercing weapons...

Add this to youtube.com
watch?v=xG6sP3aezco

Or search on Cold Steel Two Handed Great Sword. You'll get a nice example of how swords were really used against plate armor.

Now, do be careful drawing too many conclusions from that video. True armor would be much tougher than this, since the forming (into a curve) and quenching would toughen the steel considerably. (The curve also creates a sloping effect, similar to tank armor.) Figuring out whether a weapon would penetrate armor takes a lot more than most documentaries go through. I've seen documentaries put a 1/4" plate up and shoot through it with a musket, and claim that killed the knight. No, it's untempered, unquenched steel, and much softer than real armor, and when a period lead ball is shot against a tempered, shaped armor it flattens like a pancake because lead is very soft, and hard steel is, well, hard. The best arrow vs. armor documentary I ever saw went to Agincourt, found an arrowhead (there are lots still in that area), identified it as being iron, not steel, found period plate armor, made a tempered piece to fire at (not shaped properly), and the soft iron bent, with no penetration. There are many factors that determine penetration, beyond a thought experiment on weapon strength. It doesn't matter how hard you fire, if the head is soft iron, then it's going to bend and not penetrate high quality, smithed steel. And my guess? The Mongols didn't use high quality steel for arrows, when the Asian region didn't have much high quality steel. Asia was notoriously low on steel, and Europe had plenty, once Germany found its massive resources.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby Oberon » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:30 pm

drachefly wrote:Pulling numbers out of nowhere for range examples that fit this: 15% crit rate is pretty high for a crit rate, especially compared to a lot of game systems (e.g. D&D/d20 RPG, GURPS, Pendragon, Final Fantasy). 25% is also fairly likely for a miss. That leaves 60% normal hit. She's just saying there is a wide range of possibilities of how this works out.
Well, sure, I guess. Gamers (myself included) often use poor terminology for the odds. In non-gaming circles, calling a 25% probability a "likely" outcome would raise eyebrows, at the very least. "I've got a 25% chance to win my bet! That's likely! Kick ass!" :o
badninja wrote:Not that, I was thinking along the lines of how WW 1 went. The old tactics fell out as trench, tank and aircraft* combat began. Parson is introducing new ways to battle, it is not the titans who have changed, it is how to fight has. So will Parson introduce aircraft to Erfworld or something more diabolical? :twisted:
If Parson does introduce modern warfare tactics, Sizemore is going to make some damn comfortable trenches!
Or perhaps the corridor is a "servants' corridor" in the same manner that the bank and the butcher shop are a bank and a butcher shop: Just a label for Erfworlders for empty/unused building which a warlord can visit to reduce city upkeep costs.
BLANDCorporatio wrote:Yes, or that. The mount's keen animal senses detecting a danger the rider is oblivious to or somesuch. Some proof that Dwagons aren't totally useless :P
Let's wait and see if they manage to take down the tower, eh? Or will you call them useless if the leadership and casters evacuate into the airspace before that happens? If it happens... :?
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby Oberon » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:35 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:For the record:

Trems shooting down his troops and then charging towards the dwagons-tactical genius that got unlucky!

Sylvia taking down the most important enemy position, knocking out the enemy CWL as bonus, at the expense of leting her flanks exposed-OMG foolish warlord!


Double standard much? If it had been Trems leting his flanks exposed, people would now hailing his undeniable military strategy and claiming it was simply impossible he could've protected the flanks on that situation. :roll:
As the author and chief proponent of the "Tram was holding the idiot ball" position, I hate to disagree. But I must, slightly. Tram ordered the evacuation of the atrium, and later ordered fire into the atrium. Had he given his troops enough time to get out of friendly fire? I cannot say, but we only saw Adam Antium die to friendly fire, and he was disobeying the order to evacuate in order to hunt Wanda. I cannot hold Tram responsible for Antium's death when Antium disobeyed orders, however nobly, and died due to that disobeyal.

Sylvia's foolishness or lack thereof I'm waiting for more facts to come in on before making a decision. She left her flank open, yes. But it took a high level unit with the presumably rare special of archery and a new and never before mentioned or even hinted at tactic (Stack for stealth? Really?) to come into firing range of Sylvia and her stack undetected. And, a few people have pointed out that there should be unled stacks about. Which I suppose can't attack an undetected enemy stack (for stealth), but which should reduce the chance for stealth in much the same manner that having 11 warlords detecting against 30 veiled units gives about 300 chances to detect a veiled stack. Presuming (and since it isn't magic, this should be a safe presumption) that detecting a "stealthed" stack doesn't require warlords to detect, every GK unit in the atrium should have had a chance to detect Artemis's stack. I'm tending towards calling foul on new "standard" Erfworld rules being introduced into the story.

At this point Parson should know every regular rule (a position I held near the end of TBfGK also), and new "standard" rules being introduced should only be new to the readers. And the story value of new rules for the readers loses credibility with every new rule introduced... Asking the readers to accept the setting, and then constantly/frequently/occasionally introducing new setting mechanics both strains the suspension of disbelief and is a bait and switch routine. There are areas in Erfworld where such new detail can be introduced and not be lame, but those are limited to the capabilities of new caster types we haven't seen yet and the bi- and trimancer link spells. Adding never before mentioned standard unit tactics sucks a lot, because the readers by this time should already be aware of this level of detail, even if only peripherally mentioned by Parson or some other character, and the reader should be able to look for the strengths and weaknesses of those tactics for themselves. Or their epileptic tree theories. :)
Quimper wrote:Writing a completely unnecessary post? Check!

Knowing less about the world and books than me? Check!

Being an avid raging fanboi? Check fucking plus!
I'm with Angband. Plot Armor (or someone channeling him) has returned!
Nothing Angband said was either unnecessary, lacking in knowledge about the source material, or displaying of fanboy tenancies. It was, however, critical of Quimper, and apparently he cannot stand the heat nor get out of the kitchen.
Dancing Cthulhu wrote:Finally, mandatory occupational health and safety courses I would actually look forward to! "My next slide shows the correct way to hold a sword while riding a dwagon and being shot at by the enemy. Notice the use of meat shields in order to avoid undue stress being placed upon your vital organs."
I could only hope for some mandatory training classes with this as the subject matter...
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby ftl » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:33 pm

"And I really am enjoying reading Artemis, Rob's doing a very good job portraying her as a skilled, smart soldier and commander. Also very nice art on this update, compliments all round."


I'll also thrown in my disagreement here.

Remember, we've only seen Artemis from the point of view of ARTEMIS HERSELF. So we know she THINKS of herself as a skilled, smart soldier and commander, who was sidelined in a city for stupid politics that wasn't her fault.

But I'm not at all convinced that's actually the case. Here's some of what we can conclude actually happened:

1) Some battle that was lost. She claims it wasn't her fault; obviously, the higher-ups disagreed. No idea who to trust here.
2) The encounter where she tried to prove her worth to Ansom, and ended up shooting him. This isn't in her favor.
3) She watches from the walls - then takes action without telling any higher-up leaders (much less consulting them). Even worse, she basically nearly the *exact same action* she criticizes Tramennis for - she grabs a stack and attacks! She's trying THE SAME DAMN THING! Well, slightly different because she's attacking in her own archery style, but at the moment it seems like a difference of style rather than substance. Though if she escapes unharmed, it'll have ended up slightly better, but I'm not sure that's likely.
4) Misses her shot at Sylvia! (for whatever reason - shooting through falling debris, I guess? "Only now, in the context of the arrow's flight, did she pay heed to the debris that was falling around her target's stack." Maybe she should have paid heed to that before considering her attack? But a miss is a miss, game-wise).

In her favor, she does recount how
1) As a level 1, she was a great hunter, and her stack didn't need to touch their provisions.
2) She saved Forthewin's life with a good shot against a Woodsy Owl.
3) She had a bad feeling about the dwagon bombing.

But again, remember that this is all what we see from a text update WRITTEN FROM HER PERSPECTIVE! She thinks very highly of herself, but even she can't bring up enough good memories to even the score (she shot the prince in the eye, and after that wants to claim superiority.)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby The.Healing.Mage » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:39 pm

Oberon wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:Adam Antium

Adam ... Antium. But he wasn't even that hard to kill. [groan][/groan]
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby kreszantas » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:12 am

ftl wrote:
"And I really am enjoying reading Artemis, Rob's doing a very good job portraying her as a skilled, smart soldier and commander. Also very nice art on this update, compliments all round."


I'll also thrown in my disagreement here.

Remember, we've only seen Artemis from the point of view of ARTEMIS HERSELF. So we know she THINKS of herself as a skilled, smart soldier and commander, who was sidelined in a city for stupid politics that wasn't her fault.

But I'm not at all convinced that's actually the case. Here's some of what we can conclude actually happened:

1) Some battle that was lost. She claims it wasn't her fault; obviously, the higher-ups disagreed. No idea who to trust here.
2) The encounter where she tried to prove her worth to Ansom, and ended up shooting him. This isn't in her favor.
3) She watches from the walls - then takes action without telling any higher-up leaders (much less consulting them). Even worse, she basically nearly the *exact same action* she criticizes Tramennis for - she grabs a stack and attacks! She's trying THE SAME DAMN THING! Well, slightly different because she's attacking in her own archery style, but at the moment it seems like a difference of style rather than substance. Though if she escapes unharmed, it'll have ended up slightly better, but I'm not sure that's likely.
4) Misses her shot at Sylvia! (for whatever reason - shooting through falling debris, I guess? "Only now, in the context of the arrow's flight, did she pay heed to the debris that was falling around her target's stack." Maybe she should have paid heed to that before considering her attack? But a miss is a miss, game-wise).

In her favor, she does recount how
1) As a level 1, she was a great hunter, and her stack didn't need to touch their provisions.
2) She saved Forthewin's life with a good shot against a Woodsy Owl.
3) She had a bad feeling about the dwagon bombing.

But again, remember that this is all what we see from a text update WRITTEN FROM HER PERSPECTIVE! She thinks very highly of herself, but even she can't bring up enough good memories to even the score (she shot the prince in the eye, and after that wants to claim superiority.)


My only quip against this post is what leadership supposed to do when the CWL goes down? Stand around with their thumbs up their boop?!? Or do they do what they are popped to do and that is lead. She only had this "attack" option available to her AFTER the purples did their damage. Therefore selective use of facts to piece together a story that is not read the same way by everyone is indeed a fallacy.
Huh? What was that sound, oh nevermind it was nothing.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby ftl » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:30 am

Fair enough. I'll agree that the decision to attack may have made sense.

Still, I'll maintain my impression. I only got the feeling that she considered herself to be really good, and not that she actually was all that. Perhaps she'll be vindicated eventually, but in my opinion it hasn't happened yet.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby decius » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:39 am

Decorus wrote:Sylvia wasn't saved by the Titans, she just won another round against Death.
Sylvia wasn't taking any precautions, because since she was decrypted she has been playing a game of chance against death.
Her latest hand came up Aces and Eights beating Death's pair of nines.

Sylvia saw Artemis lining up the shot, read the hand signals to know when the shot was coming, and directed the siege to break that stone to fall that way and deflect the arrow. That's how the croakamancer and arkenpliers bonus manifests itself sometimes.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby The.Healing.Mage » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:02 am

decius wrote:
Decorus wrote:Sylvia saw Artemis lining up the shot, read the hand signals to know when the shot was coming, and directed the siege to break that stone to fall that way and deflect the arrow. That's how the croakamancer and arkenpliers bonus manifests itself sometimes.


Just out of curiosity how long has it been since you took physics? How about statistics? I'd consult Parson on how unlikely doing that on purpose is, but he'd laugh at me.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 051

Postby zilfallon » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:30 am

The.Healing.Mage wrote:
decius wrote:
Decorus wrote:Sylvia saw Artemis lining up the shot, read the hand signals to know when the shot was coming, and directed the siege to break that stone to fall that way and deflect the arrow. That's how the croakamancer and arkenpliers bonus manifests itself sometimes.


Just out of curiosity how long has it been since you took physics? How about statistics? I'd consult Parson on how unlikely doing that on purpose is, but he'd laugh at me.


It wasn't Decorus who said that...You should really fix your quotes, they might cause more chaos than we need :D
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Violets are blue.

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