Book 2 – Page 63

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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby drachefly » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:42 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:Casters are different. The number of PhDs who are risking their lives for cash in our world is, I'll wager, extremely low - and our world has 6 billion people.


Well, you know what they say. If you see a physicist running, start running and don't stop.


There was a short circuit in the oven power controller. Loud bang, and some smoke. This occurred around 40 cm from some 800°C forming gas. Still, I go over and unplug the oven, then turn off the H2 flow just in case. Found most of the others in the hallway. One we found five minutes later on the far side of a neighboring building. He wasn't a physicist, though.

This other time I was running scared, but I wanted to catch a train. So, I guess that's not such a great guideline?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:47 pm

Bawww, physics ain't what it used to be. In the 40s.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Lamech » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:22 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
effataigus wrote:People risk their lives for cash often... and we live in a world where going broke isn't always fatal the next morning.

Sure: soldiers, mercenaries, ice truckers, "deadliest catch" fishermen... there are a lot of examples where people do very dangerous things for money.
And most of these dangerous tasks are things that any person can be taught to do.
Casters are different. The number of PhDs who are risking their lives for cash in our world is, I'll wager, extremely low - and our world has 6 billion people.
Casters have other, easier methods of making money that don't involve risking their lives, let alone other people's.
Except SHMUCKERS ARE NOT MONEY. Shmuckers are food. All the casters in the MK can get with a big bag of shmuckers is a pile of rations. Rands are money. When someone risks their life on earth as a lumberjack they are normally getting some benefit above and beyond what they would get if they didn't risk their lives. Perhaps they couldn't have gotten a job otherwise or perhaps they can buy an extra couch. Perhaps they value serving their country or find the job enjoyable. All having a big pile of money in the MK gives you is a big pile of food. I would argue the casters are so valuable they would have no trouble supporting themselves and therefore the linking up offers no significant benefit.
Oh and another cost of a link up: It might be considered highly unpleasant. That unpleasantness could easily outweigh significant profits.
MarbitChow wrote:Warlords have to be able to speak. They are commanders. By definition, you must be summoning a sentient person. Note that "willing to be summoned" was a condition that STANLEY placed on the casting - we don't even know that it's inherent in the SPW scroll.
They don't need to be able to speak. They could give all commands by interpretive dance, be perfectly understood, and probably grant a dance bonus too. If they need to tell someone something "I saw five bats" they can order a unit to "translate". Isn't leadership great?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Dr Pepper » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:40 pm

effataigus wrote:You might force the spell to give an inanimate object sentience... which I find (while riddled with moral pitfalls) to be mostly an admirable thing. I'd rather be a bread golemn than bread, I think. Unless I was dinner, I guess.


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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Oberon » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:32 pm

ftl wrote:
Oberon wrote:because if there is no disincentive these effects should be known and not available as surprise twists in the story.

Plenty of the possible disincentives have already been presented in-story for other reasons. It would not at all be a twist if a character explicitly said "mancers don't generally sell tri-link services because tri-links are always a little dangerous." Because it fits right in to the world as we've seen it. This danger has never been explicitly stated as the reason why the MK does not sell tri-link services, but the danger has been shown before (misty's death, for example.) It would not be a twist if we found out that "many barbarian mancers have no need of interacting with traditional Sides, since they are able to buy rations with Rands; as a result, only a minority of casters bother with hiring themselves out." This has never been shown to us, but would be quite consistent with the picture of the MK we've seen, and so it would not be a twist. About the SPW spell in particular, it would not be a twist if we explicitly had a mancer from one of the conspiracies say "and this was our plan, and it required only one SPW spell, so we had all participants swear not to make another."

There's plenty of possible justifications that we could find out that would not be twists at all.
You missed my point entirely. The twists I was referring to were bi- or tri-mancer spells or items. Things such as (*ptui!*) kingworld, which was indeed introduced as a plot twist, an unknown to the readers capability of a linked set of two or more casters.
ftl wrote:
Oberon wrote:The point then becomes, what is that mechanism or motivation or disincentive?
In this thread, people have proposed plenty of possibilities. You shoot down each and every one of them demanding proof.
Seems fair, since I get the same treatment or worse, my proof is rejected due to a belief in some unsupported theory without a shred of backing evidence. Possibilities without any proof don't deserve the same kind of respect as factual citations from the source. It's a possibility that your unsupported theories are a bunch of hogwash, after all...
ftl wrote:It would make sense if casters simply rarely needed to go outside the MK to have their upkeep needs met. With how powerful casters are, it wouldn't be at all surprising if, with ALL the different caster types available, there was some combination that could generate schmuckers or at least make rations! And then sell that for rands.
See now, this is a prime example. You've invented a theory which has nothing to back it from the source materiel, and you're using it to prop up your conclusions which also have nothing from the source material to back it. Casters DO hire themselves out. Casters DO sell at least scrolls and possibly other items as well. Casters DO engage in tri-mancer links for motivations which CANNOT, by the evidence of the source material, be for purely conspiratorial reasons. And so one wonders why the casters who weren't linking for "the cause" participated in creating the SPW scroll? Was it for rands or smuckers? Why, if this is such a dangerous undertaking and casters can easily make their upkeep without taking these horrible, horrible risks?
ftl wrote:It would make sense if casters did not like entering tri-links because of the inherent danger. We've seen Misty die in a badly broken one. Why would any barbarian caster risk their life in a tri-link when they don't need to? Even if it's a low risk, it's way riskier than earning upkeep solo.
Gee, it'd make sense if not for the simple fact that it has happened within the story. Someone might call this "the default position", :lol: . Your theory about upkeep is proven false by the story itself. Casters DID link to make the SPW scroll. In all probability, a tri-mancer link. Some think it was a penta-mancer link, even though that was said to be impossible.
ftl wrote:I look forward to finding out, if it ever becomes important enough to the story to know the details rather than the end result. But it certainly does not "infringe on the willing suspension of disbelief" if the details are left vague.
If it ever becomes important to the story? It is a major plot element, ferchristssake, how could it be any more important to the story? Without SPW there is no story. If SPW cannot be maintained as being logically consistent, the story loses a very important basis.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby ftl » Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:58 pm

Oberon wrote:You missed my point entirely. The twists I was referring to were bi- or tri-mancer spells or items. Things such as (*ptui!*) kingworld, which was indeed introduced as a plot twist, an unknown to the readers capability of a linked set of two or more casters.


Oh. Well, I suspect we'll keep getting additional occasional links or items.

[Seems fair, since I get the same treatment or worse, my proof is rejected due to a belief in some unsupported theory without a shred of backing evidence.


Because you present yours as an absolute instead of a possibility.

Your argument is that casters WILL DEFINITELY sell lots of scrolls for lots of money. We see that this isn't true, since casters selling services of various sorts is rare. So we shoot down your theory.

If you instead presented it as "it is POSSIBLE for a caster to make lots of money selling services", you'd find a lot less argument. I'd agree with it. Sure, it's probably possible for a money-minded caster to make a bunch of money with these things, though we haven't met one who's been shown to do that.

But as it is, that's not all you're saying; you're saying that "casters making lots of money selling services is REQUIRED for this story to be consistent." And that's a much stronger statement.

Showing that something is POSSIBLE is easy. All it takes is to show that it doesn't contradict the world as it is, and would fit in well if it were true. Showing that something IS ACTUALLY TRUE is a lot harder.

ftl wrote:It would make sense if casters simply rarely needed to go outside the MK to have their upkeep needs met. With how powerful casters are, it wouldn't be at all surprising if, with ALL the different caster types available, there was some combination that could generate schmuckers or at least make rations! And then sell that for rands.
See now, this is a prime example. You've invented a theory which has nothing to back it from the source materiel, and you're using it to prop up your conclusions which also have nothing from the source material to back it.


Because I'm presenting it as a possibility instead of a certainty. It is not something that has direct story support, but it's not contradicted either. It would fit in with the world as it is - that doesn't mean that it will turn out to be true, but as of now, it might.

Casters DO hire themselves out. Casters DO sell at least scrolls and possibly other items as well.


Yes, but these are still rare. They crop up once in a while, but not often. I'm proposing a possible explanation for why they are rare. Note how IF what I said turned out true, it wouldn't mean that casters NEVER go outside the MK - just that they don't HAVE to do it all the time.

Casters DO engage in tri-mancer links for motivations which CANNOT, by the evidence of the source material, be for purely conspiratorial reasons. And so one wonders why the casters who weren't linking for "the cause" participated in creating the SPW scroll? Was it for rands or smuckers?


All of the above, sure. Rands or schmuckers, personal favors, The Cause. Seems like all would fit in. The thinkamancers had their own agenda, Janis seems to be pretty well-connected and can pull strings, there was a good sum of money involved.

Why, if this is such a dangerous undertaking and casters can easily make their upkeep without taking these horrible, horrible risks?


For a wide variety of reasons. Schmuckers. Conspiracies. Anything you can think of MIGHT still be a reason, since we don't know for sure.

Again, my point in presenting the danger wasn't that it NEVER happens. It's that it isn't something that would be done COMMONLY or ROUTINELY just as a way to earn upkeep.

ftl wrote:It would make sense if casters did not like entering tri-links because of the inherent danger. We've seen Misty die in a badly broken one. Why would any barbarian caster risk their life in a tri-link when they don't need to? Even if it's a low risk, it's way riskier than earning upkeep solo.
Gee, it'd make sense if not for the simple fact that it has happened within the story.


I repeat. I'm not saying it would NEVER happen because of the danger. Just that casters wouldn't *like* doing it and would USUALLY avoid it.

It makes tri-links into something rare and special, not something that can be counted on repeatedly. Again, I'm presenting it as a disincentive. I'm not saying it never happens, just that it happens RARELY.

ftl wrote:I look forward to finding out, if it ever becomes important enough to the story to know the details rather than the end result. But it certainly does not "infringe on the willing suspension of disbelief" if the details are left vague.
If it ever becomes important to the story? It is a major plot element, ferchristssake, how could it be any more important to the story? Without SPW there is no story. If SPW cannot be maintained as being logically consistent, the story loses a very important basis.


Leaving it vague is also a way of maintaining logical consistency. As long as there's lots of POTENTIAL ways to resolve the issue, the story is still consistent, even if we don't know which way or which combination of ways is ACTUALLY true.

Right now the story is about Parson in Erfworld. We've only had brief forays into the MK; the majority of the story has taken place outside it. The MK is a big black box and yes, it would be very interesting to know how it works; we're getting occasional glimpses and it'll eventually add up to a big picture. But for the story outside the MK, the details of how the black box work aren't as critical as seeing what the black box does. You're claiming that unless we know everything, the story is inconsistent.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby MarbitChow » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:32 am

(An attempt at an objective, neutral summary:)

Pro-SPW-abuse main points
  • It would be interesting to experiment with the SPW spell to see what could be summoned, and what items would appear, which appeals to the research-oriented
  • Sides might pay big bucks for Perfect Warlords, and Cash is good

Anti-SPW-abuse main points
  • Original group did it for Peace, not Cash
  • Almost no one outside of GK knows about the items, and few even know of the SPW spell
  • Summoning more Perfect Warlords just to get their items is immoral/unethical
  • There are easier ways to get paid without as much effort/risk, although not nearly as lucrative

Conclusion: Abuse of SPW scrolls are possible by unethical or very curious casters. Plausible, internally-consistent reasons exist to explain why abuse isn't already happening. As knowledge disseminates through Erfworld, likelihood of additional SPW attempts increase unless the author introduces additional information (actual requirements for scroll creation, for example, or steps that casters are taking to prevent duplication) that would make repetition unlikely.

That about cover it?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Oberon » Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:25 pm

ftl wrote:Because you present yours as an absolute instead of a possibility.
I never have. And I've said myself plenty of times that my postulations could easily be proven wrong by the advancing story line at any point. I shouldn't have to use weak language with every post to keep those statements from being forgotten.
ftl wrote:Again, my point in presenting the danger wasn't that it NEVER happens. It's that it isn't something that would be done COMMONLY or ROUTINELY just as a way to earn upkeep.
Again with the phrasing lessening the importance of upkeep. "Just as a way to keep living" is a much better way to putting it which doesn't seek to diminish the importance of making your upkeep every turn or dying.
MarbitChow wrote:That about cover it?
Yep. I disagree with points 3 and 4 of your Anti-SPW-abuse summation, but it's a decent enough pros/cons list otherwise. I don't see anything unethical in taking and selling valuable items to defray or even make profitable the large investment in the SPW scroll(s), nor do I believe that we know enough about the economics of casters/MK to conclude that there are easier ways to get paid without as much effort/risk, although not nearly as lucrative.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby drachefly » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:08 pm

... you know what, I'm going to leave it at that and I recommend everyone else do the same. There is no point in continuing.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Lamech » Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:45 am

Oberon wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:That about cover it?
Yep. I disagree with points 3 and 4 of your Anti-SPW-abuse summation, but it's a decent enough pros/cons list otherwise. I don't see anything unethical in taking and selling valuable items to defray or even make profitable the large investment in the SPW scroll(s), nor do I believe that we know enough about the economics of casters/MK to conclude that there are easier ways to get paid without as much effort/risk, although not nearly as lucrative.

Basic economics tells us casters are highly valued. Sides value casters for what they do off the front lines so much above there upkeep they are normally unwilling to risk what the casters can do in support for a front line battle. Casters are devastatingly powerful units when in combat, powerful enough that three overcomes Wanda's croakamancer bonus, artifact bonus, and ability to resurrect the fallen Jetstones. Yet the amount of value placed on what a caster can do as a support unit back in the capital outweighs both this and the upkeep cost they take. So at the very least a caster could offer to work in a non-risky role for a side at upkeep, and the side would be ecstatic. And probably they could get even more than just that.

More to the point your claim is that it is implausible that the SPW is not being used to farm for cash? That there is some form of logical inconstancy in the story? Correct> Then to show that it needs to be shown that all alternatives theories are implausible. Not simply saying we don't have enough to conclude that a specific theory is the case is not enough to dismiss it as a counter-point. Which of course makes logical inconstancy extremely difficult to show when only brief information is shown.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Oberon » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:11 am

Lamech wrote:Basic economics tells us casters are highly valued. Sides value casters for what they do off the front lines so much above there upkeep they are normally unwilling to risk what the casters can do in support for a front line battle.
This seems reasonable, until the examples are considered. The RCC had no caster support, but the RCCII had all casters placed under the control of Ossomer. Ossomer taunted Ansom with this fact. Other "field" casters we've seen are Sizemore in the GK tunnels; Jack, flying into the "we're punching through" combat led by Stanley and who is traveling now with the GK expeditionary forces; Wanda, who needs to be present after a combat (or during it) in order to convert casualties inflicted upon the enemy into new units for the GK side; and Vanna, who flew into a combat zone with Jillian and her air force in order to cast (*ptui!*) kingworld upon GK. We can even count Chewie, who ran after a decked out CWL and confronted him one to one. And then of course Sizemore, Janice, and Marie who jumped into that same confrontation. That's a rather large set of examples of casters being in the front lines, being in harm's way, and being risked, either by their side or by tnemselves. There is a great deal of example situations. More than enough to counter the "normally unwilling to risk what the casters can do in support for a front line battle" theory.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:52 am

Oberon wrote:This seems reasonable, until the examples are considered. The RCC had no caster support, but the RCCII had all casters placed under the control of Ossomer. Ossomer taunted Ansom with this fact.

RCC was on the offensive. RCCII was attempting to avoid annihilation. That seems like a valid reason to risk putting the casters in harm's way, and thus doesn't refute the original point.

Oberon wrote: Other "field" casters we've seen are Sizemore in the GK tunnels; Jack, flying into the "we're punching through" combat led by Stanley and who is traveling now with the GK expeditionary forces;

GK/Stanley seeking to avoid annihilation, and thus doesn't refute the original point.

Oberon wrote:Wanda, who needs to be present after a combat (or during it) in order to convert casualties inflicted upon the enemy into new units for the GK side;

Wanda is Tool-attuned, and can be treated as an exception to the rule. Also, she's a bit crazy, if you hadn't noticed.

Oberon wrote:and Vanna, who flew into a combat zone with Jillian and her air force in order to cast (*ptui!*) kingworld upon GK.

Vanna was in a link, placed into a situation to assist RCCII, who was (and still is) attempting to avoid annihilation. Last Stands are plausible exceptions.

Oberon wrote:We can even count Chewie, who ran after a decked out CWL and confronted him one to one. And then of course Sizemore, Janice, and Marie who jumped into that same confrontation. That's a rather large set of examples of casters being in the front lines, being in harm's way, and being risked, either by their side or by tnemselves. There is a great deal of example situations. More than enough to counter the "normally unwilling to risk what the casters can do in support for a front line battle" theory.

The Magic Kingdom is currently considered neutral territory. Confronting anyone there would not normally be considered a risk, especially since Jojo honestly claimed he was just trying to help Parson.

So, for the record, all of your counter-examples are either (1) desperate last stands / flights for survival, (2) neutral territory, or (3) Wanda, who is crazy and Tool-attuned.

Those don't really refute the original point, honestly, but if you want to conclude that any casters who are in a position of a desperate last stand would willingly risk creating the SPW scroll, sure, we'll grant you that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Lamech » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:18 pm

What MarbitChow said.
Wanda, who needs to be present after a combat (or during it) in order to convert casualties inflicted upon the enemy into new units for the GK side;

Wanda is crazy, and I would argue has no business charging into battle. They should be able to beat people to death with the dwagon swarms, have an Archon check a whole dwagon relay path, and then relay Wanda out and back to the site of battle. She is almost as important as Stanley himself.
More importantly she isn't acting as a caster, but an arkentool wielder and warlord. She hasn't cast a single spell this whole battle.
Ossomer taunted Ansom with this fact. Other "field" casters we've seen are Sizemore in the GK tunnels; Jack, flying into the "we're punching through" combat led by Stanley and who is traveling now with the GK expeditionary forces;
Desperate last stands all, except for the last part. But Jack spent most of his existence being a support caster. Either veiling cities, or in the table. And foolamancers would seem much less able to run support than other casters. Also Wanda wants to croak and decrypt Jack.
and Vanna, who flew into a combat zone with Jillian and her air force in order to cast (*ptui!*) kingworld upon GK.
I strongly suspect she is there to get revenge at least in part. Or is it a coincidence that the best turnamancer for the job just happened to be the one who would want revenge on GK. So at least some casters might take a risk for revenge.
We can even count Chewie, who ran after a decked out CWL and confronted him one to one.
Same thing as Vanna, and the MK is neutral ground.
And then of course Sizemore, Janice, and Marie who jumped into that same confrontation.
Janice and Marie, of course are not there for money. They are on neutral ground, and finally they can all be decrypted.

There is a great deal of example situations. More than enough to counter the "normally unwilling to risk what the casters can do in support for a front line battle" theory.
Yeah, see that isn't how things work. What would you consider "normally X is not the case". What percentage of times would X have to be the case for "normally X is not the case" to be false? 10% 1%, .000000000000000000001%? Assuming you picked a number greater than 0% "Normally a real number is not an rational number." I can find infinite examples of rational numbers that are also real number and yet...

Second point. I have cannon support. Casters are too rare and too valuable to risk.

Finally its not important if sometimes risked. It is if casters are worth there upkeep back out of harms way. Sizemore builds cities, and units. A thinkamancer communicates and places loyalty spells on captured units. A dittomancer increases production two-fold IIRC. A turnamancer has a fifty percent increase and mass turns. A hatamancer makes raw materials for a dollamancer, makes hats, and I suspect can pull orlies out of his hat. (He wasn't even at the last stand for Spacerock.) A moneymancer presumably makes/saves money somehow, and produces gems. Pierce the healomancer didn't go on the front lines until recently so even he was worth his upkeep sitting in the capital. A shockamancer spells up a tower before leaving. Casters are considered valuable away from battle. If they weren't worth more than their upkeep that would not be the case. If Pierce the healomancer was not worth his upkeep sitting in the capital, he would have been sent into battle. If Sizemore or Maggie weren't worth their upkeep back in GK they would be on the front lines. Ditto the rest of them. Casters can make very powerful, and valued even when simply using the juice to run support. There is no reason to believe they will be unable to make upkeep without risking themselves.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:21 pm

Don't forget that leaving the casters in your capital doing other stuff like units/support, you greatly reduce the possibility of a decapitation strike at your main leader. If the whole side of my faction hinged on the survival of a single relatively fragile unit, I certainly would want to keep my best units as close to it as possible in case my oponent tries something funny. Mancers thus do double duty as city suport and supreme line of defense.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Lamech » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:49 pm

Also the flavor's of casters needed to produce the SPW spell would be particularly suited to sitting back in saftey and casting. As far as we know lookamancers simply scry. Thinkamancers spend most of their juice on thinkagrams and probably a few loyalty spells every time a caster is captured. And finally a dash of combat magic. The only findamancy magic we know about is summoning (and if they can summon harvestables, they may not even need to work.) And predictamancers simply make predictions. We haven't seen any use of magic from the, predictamancers, and lookamancers that would benefit from being on the front, and we know that thinkamancers mainly do thinkagrams. Findamancers would benefit from slightly faster deployment time. It seems extremely plausible that a side could value the help of these units above the upkeep value even if they won't risk themselves in battle.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Kreistor » Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:15 am

Lamech wrote:Basic economics tells us casters are highly valued. Sides value casters for what they do off the front lines so much above there upkeep they are normally unwilling to risk what the casters can do in support for a front line battle.

Oberon wrote:This seems reasonable, until the examples are considered. The RCC had no caster support, but the RCCII had all casters placed under the control of Ossomer. Ossomer taunted Ansom with this fact.


True, he did, but we can also see that in the beginning of Book 1, Wanda, Sizemore, and the three other GK casters are all in GK, away from their own forces.

And at this point, GK has not captured or killed any casters in the field to test the Pliers on, so in the lead up to Book 2, no Caster was ever used in the Battlefield against Ansom and Wanda.

Other "field" casters we've seen are Sizemore in the GK tunnels;


Tunnels are a GK zone, so he's defending their last city. Desperate last stand under Parson, not Stanley. Parson is always an exception.

Jack, flying into the "we're punching through" combat led by Stanley and who is traveling now with the GK expeditionary forces;


Leaving GK for FAQ was a desperate escape plan attempting to avoid combat by slipping past potential enemies. Stanley could take anyone he wanted, since everyone that he didn't was expected to die in GK.

It might have worked if Jack was mentally undamaged. Again, an exceptional event, since we have not seen other Rulers attempt such an escape. Bea and Slately have stayed in their Capitals until the end approached.

Wanda, who needs to be present after a combat (or during it) in order to convert casualties inflicted upon the enemy into new units for the GK side;


Not done at the beginning of Book 1, only once they reached the city and there was nowhere else for her to go.

[qote]Vanna, who flew into a combat zone with Jillian and her air force in order to cast (*ptui!*) kingworld upon GK.[/quote]

Inside a city with a portal to MK. If the spell succeeded, she would be on Turn and could be flown to safety. If it failed, she could step into MK. She was never in danger.

We can even count Chewie, who ran after a decked out CWL


No, we can't. He was Neutral, and not under orders from a Ruler. This is about how Sides use their Casters, not whether Casters want to fight.

And then of course Sizemore, Janice, and Marie who jumped into that same confrontation.


Janice and Marie are Neutral, and not an example. Sizemore chose to put himself in harms way, and was not acting under Parson's orders. We're talking about how a Side treats its casters, not how Casters choose to act when given free will.

That's a rather large set of examples of casters being in the front lines


And none of them are examples of Sides using Casters in armies, unless they are mounting a desperate defense of their Capital city.

being in harm's way, and being risked, either by their side or by tnemselves.


"By themselves" is not evidence of a Ruler issuing Orders. Many casters have evidenced aggression and a desire to fight, including Ace. We are not talking about casters liking to be in combat, we are talking about Sides ordering Casters into combat.

There is a great deal of example situations. More than enough to counter the "normally unwilling to risk what the casters can do in support for a front line battle" theory.


It's not a theory. It's a Klog.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F084a.jpg

He told me that Casters are Commanders and can lead Stacks, but they almost never do. Casters are too rare and valuable to risk, and they give no leadership bonus to the stack anyway.


So while your efforts amusing, you can find a thousand good examples, and still be wrong. We are not seeing the normal in this story, we see only the exceptional. We are not going to ever see a "normal" battle because stories are written about the extraordinary, and the extraordinary is the reason Sizemore said, "almost never," and not, "never." Sizemore is an expert on what normally occurs in Erfworld, and his word must be accepted, unless another expert disagrees.

We are analysts, not experts.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Oberon » Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:46 pm

Kreistor, you offer a lot of "Nuh-uh", but none of it directly contradicts me. You only seek to present extenuating circumstances as being valid counters, but that's a fail.
Kreistor wrote:True, he did, but we can also see that in the beginning of Book 1, Wanda, Sizemore, and the three other GK casters are all in GK, away from their own forces.
This point does nothing to contradict my examples of casters in the thick of it. US troops are often at home also, does that mean that US troops are not deployed abroad because of those examples? Hardly. You cannot validly cite a case where something isn't done to claim that something is never done. Fail.
Kreistor wrote:And at this point, GK has not captured or killed any casters in the field to test the Pliers on, so in the lead up to Book 2, no Caster was ever used in the Battlefield against Ansom and Wanda.
First off, you cannot sate that with certainty. No killed or captured casters were mentioned in the narrative, but we also don't have a count of stabbers or knights killed or captured. You're making a statement based on the absence of evidence, and this is a fail. And even assuming that you are correct, this would be just another fact which is interesting but not significant. Citing examples where casters were not involved in combat does nothing to counter the many examples of casters being involved in combat.
Kreistor wrote:Parson is always an exception.
That's a cheap position. "I can't be wrong even if you cite evidence to the contrary, because if Parson is there it suddenly doesn't count." Convenient! And also interesting but not significant. I cited plenty of examples of other leaders using casters in combat that even ignoring the Parson examples there are plenty enough to go around.
Kreistor wrote:Leaving GK for FAQ was a desperate escape plan attempting to avoid combat by slipping past potential enemies. Stanley could take anyone he wanted, since everyone that he didn't was expected to die in GK.
First off, you're wrong about Stanley being able to take anyone he wanted. He mustered his KISS units and told them point blank that he could only take a few of them, and this clown. Second off, you are now claiming that Stanley is also an exception, similar to your "Parson is always an exception" claim above. Do you need to declare everyone an exception to counter the weight of my presented evidence? Just give it up, already!
Kreistor wrote:Not done [Wanda in combat] at the beginning of Book 1, only once they reached the city and there was nowhere else for her to go.
Even the simple minded could understand that I was referring to Wanda needing to be present in combat in order to decrypt the fallen enemy dead. Claiming that this didn't happen much in Book 1 when she didn't have the 'pliers is not an intelligent counter. And, just as another case in point, Wanda was flying around collecting croaked WL to uncroak at the very beginning of TBfGK. That was behavior which risked her to a surprise combat.
Kreistor wrote:[Vanna] Inside a city with a portal to MK. If the spell succeeded, she would be on Turn and could be flown to safety. If it failed, she could step into MK. She was never in danger.
BS. She was flying around the wilderness and not sequestered inside a city until the FAQ forces reached Jetstone. You're claiming that one turn-end position is equal to all turn-end positions, and that is just bunk. Vanna wasn't even being flown only within the confines of the territory of the side that hired her. She was flying around in the wilderness with a strike force. She was with a combat unit which was expected by everyone to engage with the GK expeditionary forces, an uncertain outcome indeed. And she was in danger of being involved in combat every turn she was mounted on a megalo and flying around with Jillian. And after leaving Jetstone she was with Jillian while they sacked at least one GK city. Every turn Vanna is with Jillian she is subject to the possibility of the danger of combat. There is no possible exception to this clear cut example of a caster being exposed to the same dangers as any other expeditionary unit.
Kreistor wrote:No, we can't [count Chewie]. He was Neutral, and not under orders from a Ruler. This is about how Sides use their Casters, not whether Casters want to fight.
Right... Citation needed. You know for a fact that Chewie is just a neutral caster ignoring his needs to maintain his upkeep by buying or creating a scroll to try to cast on Parson? He, out of some sense of loyalty to Bea, perhaps, somehow found out that Parson was going to be in the MK at portal park on this turn (a feat which Marie the predictamancer called "hard"), and then he ran down a well armed CWL in order to avenge his fallen side? And he did this in a vacuum, with no one hiring him or supporting him in any way? You really believe that? Based on what evidence? On the flip side, we know that he did things which were "hard" for predictamancy specialists, and he isn't one, and that he had specialty items prepared which appear to also be outside of his specialty. Not certain evidence that he is hired out, but much safer money than assuming that he did all this as a lone wolf. But even if I grant you Chewie based on the uncertainty of his situation there are still plenty of examples remaining.
Kreistor wrote:Janice and Marie are Neutral, and not an example. Sizemore chose to put himself in harms way, and was not acting under Parson's orders. We're talking about how a Side treats its casters, not how Casters choose to act when given free will.
Another set of extenuating circumstances, will it ever end? "2 of the casters are neutral, and the other one wasn't ordered into combat, so none of it counts." Was the dittomancer ordered into combat? Nope! He never was. He stood back and doubled (quadrupled!) arrows in flight. Was he regardless involved in a combat, and at potential risk? Yep! The GK flying forces could have easily attacked him just like they did the siege in TBfGK if it weren't for having a more pressing mission at Jetstone proper. Same for Sizemore. I'll grant you the neutrals, even though they are still casters who were involved in a combat situation. And did you fail to read the last update? No one has free will! Sizemore jumped into a potential combat situation because his duty made him. There is no out or special circumstance here by claiming that it wasn't ordered, so somehow it never happened. It did happen.
Kreistor wrote:And none of [the rather large set of examples of casters being in the front lines] are examples of Sides using Casters in armies, unless they are mounting a desperate defense of their Capital city.
[...]
It's not a theory. It's a Klog.

You need words like "unless", or "special circumstance", or "desperate situation" to even attempt to counter the many examples I've provided. Why don't you give it up? Those exceptions don't even begin to cover Stanley bringing Jack into combat, but I know you have a "doesn't count! That was reason X" to play. I could play the same game, and claim some "special circumstance" made my own pet theory somehow more valid than actual, historical facts. But that's not a logical nor a valid counter argument. You are quite simply wrong and without basis. Your every attempt to claim otherwise is just a grasp at a straw, some "special circumstance" you must apply to attempt to eliminate each of the very many examples of that thing you refuse to accept. And just as an example, citing that Parson's klog says that something doesn't happen does not have any weight against the examples of that thing happening.
Kreistor wrote:So while your efforts amusing, you can find a thousand good examples, and still be wrong.
[...]
We are analysts, not experts.
I'd be careful how you use that word, when you prove yourself more willing to discount evidence on the basis of claiming "special circumstance, doesn't count!" and "written word is contradicted, so historical evidence must be wrong!" You're not an expert, on that I will agree. When you conclude with "No matter how many real examples you provide, I'll always be able to find an excuse as to why every piece of it is wrong" I have to wonder if you're really being serious.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby drachefly » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:29 pm

Oberon wrote:Kreistor, you offer a lot of "Nuh-uh", but none of it directly contradicts me. You only seek to present extenuating circumstances as being valid counters, but that's a fail.


It depends on the nature of the claims being made. Clarify what you're driving at, and almost all of the following back-and-forth becomes irrelevant.

A few things stand out.

Oberon wrote:
Kreistor wrote:And at this point, GK has not captured or killed any casters in the field to test the Pliers on, so in the lead up to Book 2, no Caster was ever used in the Battlefield against Ansom and Wanda.
First off, you cannot sate that with certainty.


What. Do you think they wouldn't have mentioned it when discussing the question of healing Jack or not? If it had happened, we would have heard about it.

Oberon wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Parson is always an exception.
That's a cheap position. "I can't be wrong even if you cite evidence to the contrary, because if Parson is there it suddenly doesn't count."


Oberon, Oberon, Oberon. Cut it out with the insane strawmen already, okay? That's NOT what he said AT ALL.


Oberon wrote:That was behavior which risked her to a surprise combat.

They had the table active. They knew the flight path was clear.


Oberon wrote:And just as an example, citing that Parson's klog says that something doesn't happen does not have any weight against the examples of that thing happening.
[/quote]

See, if you two can keep foremost what it is you're attempting to prove, the relevance or irrelevance of this klog will be obvious.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Kreistor » Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:35 pm

Oberon wrote:Kreistor, you offer a lot of "Nuh-uh", but none of it directly contradicts me. You only seek to present extenuating circumstances as being valid counters, but that's a fail.


You're not an objective judge of "fail". As an involved participant, you are inherently biased, and so your opinion is easily rejected.

Kreistor wrote:True, he did, but we can also see that in the beginning of Book 1, Wanda, Sizemore, and the three other GK casters are all in GK, away from their own forces.


Oberon wrote:This point does nothing to contradict my examples of casters in the thick of it. US troops are often at home also, does that mean that US troops are not deployed abroad because of those examples? Hardly. You cannot validly cite a case where something isn't done to claim that something is never done. Fail.


My example is consistent with Sizemore's statements in the Klog. Nothing you offer is evidence, just opinion and examples from irrelevant Earth. Rejected.

Kreistor wrote:And at this point, GK has not captured or killed any casters in the field to test the Pliers on, so in the lead up to Book 2, no Caster was ever used in the Battlefield against Ansom and Wanda.


Oberon wrote:First off, you cannot sate that with certainty


Book 2, Page 11 Panel 11. "A big one being, "we don't know if [Jack]'d still be able to cast or not."

Yeah, I can. Since we know Bea was unaware of Decrypted until they were on her Capital, no Units escaped from battle with Gobwin Knob to that point, implying that all fights took place on GK turn. Had a caster been participating, he would have been unable to escape the Hex. Erfworld is vicious to defenders... they cannot retreat out of the Hex, and so on a loss suffer 100% casualties. Had he been fighting, Ansom would not have ended Turn until the caster was found and captured or his corpse collected, just for the purpose of testing the Pliers on a caster. They could even have had Maggie get a Findamancy scroll from the MK, and dragon-chain it to the battlefield to uncover a Caster that had found a way to hide.

Kreistor wrote:Parson is always an exception.

Oberon wrote:That's a cheap position.


It's an accurate position. Parson is subject to many Erf rules, but not others. As an exception, what he can or cannot do is not evidence unless it is replicated by an Erfworlder or mentioned specifically. That's been SOP around here since the beginning.

Kreistor wrote:Leaving GK for FAQ was a desperate escape plan attempting to avoid combat by slipping past potential enemies. Stanley could take anyone he wanted, since everyone that he didn't was expected to die in GK.

First off, you're wrong about Stanley being able to take anyone he wanted. He mustered his KISS units and told them point blank that he could only take a few of them


That was not how that sentence was intended to be interpreted. "anyone he wanted" was intended to be interpreted as "any individual he wanted", within the limits of who could be carried (ie. not heavies). You interpreted anyone as "everyone he wanted", which was not my intent and inconsistent with the context of the discussion which was about who he selected and why, not how many he selected.

Kreistor wrote:Not done [Wanda in combat] at the beginning of Book 1, only once they reached the city and there was nowhere else for her to go.


Oberon wrote:Even the simple minded could understand that I was referring to Wanda needing to be present in combat in order to decrypt the fallen enemy dead.


That may have been your intent, but it was prejudicial, because it failed to cover all cases of Wanda's battlefield presence, or lack thereof. She could Uncroak in large numbers before she could Decrypt, and while Decrypting is obvious superior and all she would do now, in early Book 1 she could still Uncroak and have similar effect at a reduced scope and scale. Keeping her back during the opening of Book 1 is a case on point for me. Despite her stacking leadership bonus to Uncroaked, she was kept far from the battlelines, until she had infinite Decryption and an Artifact bonus to stack with her Leadership bonus to Decrypted.

Claiming that this didn't happen much in Book 1 when she didn't have the 'pliers is not an intelligent counter.


Why? Because it's direct evidence against your position? With only the Capital remaining, Stanley still held all of his casters in GK against the RCC forces.

And let's note exactly what you said there. "when she didn't have the pliers" implies that having the pliers is the reason Wanda was permitted to attend the Battleforce. Since there is only one known caster with an Arkentool, that caster is the lone exception, so what happens to her while she carries the 'pliers is not evidence of what life is like for anyone that does not have an Arkentool.

And, just as another case in point, Wanda was flying around collecting croaked WL to uncroak at the very beginning of TBfGK. That was behavior which risked her to a surprise combat.


Not exactly. She began in Tunnels. She was on GK Turn (since she was Moving), when the body can be moved out of the combat hex to a hex where no RCC units were located, so that she was never in danger. And drache mentioned the Table, (which I had completely forgotten about, thanks) which ensured no RCC units were in a Hex that she entered.

Kreistor wrote:[Vanna] Inside a city with a portal to MK. If the spell succeeded, she would be on Turn and could be flown to safety. If it failed, she could step into MK. She was never in danger.


Oberon wrote:BS. She was flying around the wilderness and not sequestered inside a city until the FAQ forces reached Jetstone.


Except for one thing: my position is not an absolute. Sizemore states that casters are "almost never" on the battlefield. That means sometimes they can be on the battlefield. You can cite and cite and cite, and you can never actually disprove Sizemore. It's impossible, because the fallback position is, "We're watching only the important parts, missing vast numbers of battles, and so can never have a sense of what is average."

It is amusing to watch you try, though.

But here, I'll hand you one. There are two examples of unnecesaary casters in battles where they are either not defending their own Capital or cannot get to a Portal -- the Dittomancer on the Bridge, and Vanna on the tower. There you do. Happy?

And it doesn't prove Sizemore wrong at all. His statement is not an absolute, and is only disproven if we can get data on all of the fights we missed.

Kreistor wrote:No, we can't [count Chewie]. He was Neutral, and not under orders from a Ruler. This is about how Sides use their Casters, not whether Casters want to fight.

Oberon wrote:Right... Citation needed. You know for a fact that Chewie is just a neutral caster ignoring his needs to maintain his upkeep by buying or creating a scroll to try to cast on Parson?


*Sound of jaw dropping to floor*

"He's a free Carnymancer, Originally from FAQ." Marie. Today's comic.

And the rest, where you talk about Upkeep.... DUUUUUDE! What the frack do you think MK is? It's the home for Barbarian Casters. Free Casters. Unsided Casters. Neutral Casters. They're all synonymous. The whole point of Parson sending Maggie, Sizemore, and Wanda to the MK (prior to the discussion of the volcano link) was so that when the side ended, they would be free. That's why Bea sent her casters through when her side ended, or else they would have been disbanded like every other Unaroyal unit and Jojo wouldn't even exist now.

If you need citation on that, go the Wiki and have a read. You'll find all the citiation is there, all ready for you to scan.

Kreistor wrote:Janice and Marie are Neutral, and not an example. Sizemore chose to put himself in harms way, and was not acting under Parson's orders. We're talking about how a Side treats its casters, not how Casters choose to act when given free will.


Another set of extenuating circumstances, will it ever end? "2 of the casters are neutral, and the other one wasn't ordered into combat, so none of it counts."


No, they're not on point for you at all. You're the one trying to prove that casters are used in Armies. I have no idea how you think Marie and Janis in MK, not even on a continent with an Army, are examples of anything remotely relevant.

Was the dittomancer ordered into combat? Nope! He never was. He stood back and doubled (quadrupled!) arrows in flight.


This isn't about Casters being in melee combat. This is about them being with an Army. Teh Dittomancer is a direct example, but not in this way. Melee combat is totally irrelevant.

Kreistor wrote:And none of [the rather large set of examples of casters being in the front lines] are examples of Sides using Casters in armies, unless they are mounting a desperate defense of their Capital city.
[...]
It's not a theory. It's a Klog.


You need words like "unless", or "special circumstance", or "desperate situation" to even attempt to counter the many examples I've provided.


All of your examples are either :
1. Desperate defences of Capitals with Portals nearby from which the Casters can escape
2. Not people in front lines of Armies. Individuals fighting other individuals far from battle lines, and in the case of MK, not even on the same continent.

That's not "exception", that's Pattern. Remember that Sizemore says "almost never", so exceptions do occur. There were 9 City captures leading up to the BfGK, which makes Capital Defences rare examples of battles. And don't forget Transylvito's attacks on Carpool, which are not intended to conquer, just loot for the Treasury. How many cities did Ansom recapture for Gobwin Knob on the way to Unaroyal and Spacerock? More non-Captial defences to add to the stack.

But we do not see these plot-irrelevant Battles. There can be a thousand battles oing on across Erfworld right now, but we're seeing only one very important one that has dire consequences for the Defender, just as in Book 1.

Oberon wrote:Why don't you give it up?


Because it's fun to see you implode. People like you, that love to directly insult other people's intelligence, are the easiest. No one respects that kind of language, so really, I can't lose, no matter what I say. I gain points simply by treating you with respect, despite your vacuous taunting.

Oh, you don't think I'm doing this to actually convince YOU of anything, do you? That's clearly impossible: you'll never let anyone convince you of anything.

Kreistor wrote:We are analysts, not experts.

[quote="Oberon"]I'd be careful how you use that word, when you prove yourself more willing to discount evidence on the basis of claiming "special circumstance, doesn't count!" and "written word is contradicted, so historical evidence must be wrong!"[quote]

Well, present some evidence instead of opinion, and I'll discount it for you. I'm discounting your opinions, not your evidence. I have yet to see any evidence, actually, just taunts and opinion.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 63

Postby Oberon » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:58 pm

Kreistor wrote:We are analysts, not experts.
Oberon wrote:I'd be careful how you use that word, when you prove yourself more willing to discount evidence on the basis of claiming "special circumstance, doesn't count!" and "written word is contradicted, so historical evidence must be wrong!"
Well, present some evidence instead of opinion, and I'll discount it for you. I'm discounting your opinions, not your evidence. I have yet to see any evidence, actually, just taunts and opinion.
I've presented nothing but evidence, and no opinions. You, on the other hand, have countered each and every in-strip case I've presented with a very convenient and long laundry list of your opinions on why each of my points of evidence should not count. Pot.kettle.black.
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