Oberon wrote:Kreistor, you offer a lot of "Nuh-uh", but none of it directly contradicts me. You only seek to present extenuating circumstances as being valid counters, but that's a fail.
You're not an objective judge of "fail". As an involved participant, you are inherently biased, and so your opinion is easily rejected.
Kreistor wrote:True, he did, but we can also see that in the beginning of Book 1, Wanda, Sizemore, and the three other GK casters are all in GK, away from their own forces.
Oberon wrote:This point does nothing to contradict my examples of casters in the thick of it. US troops are often at home also, does that mean that US troops are not deployed abroad because of those examples? Hardly. You cannot validly cite a case where something isn't done to claim that something is never done. Fail.
My example is consistent with Sizemore's statements in the Klog. Nothing you offer is evidence, just opinion and examples from irrelevant Earth. Rejected.
Kreistor wrote:And at this point, GK has not captured or killed any casters in the field to test the Pliers on, so in the lead up to Book 2, no Caster was ever used in the Battlefield against Ansom and Wanda.
Oberon wrote:First off, you cannot sate that with certainty
Book 2, Page 11 Panel 11. "A big one being, "we don't know if [Jack]'d still be able to cast or not."
Yeah, I can. Since we know Bea was unaware of Decrypted until they were on her Capital, no Units escaped from battle with Gobwin Knob to that point, implying that all fights took place on GK turn. Had a caster been participating, he would have been unable to escape the Hex. Erfworld is vicious to defenders... they cannot retreat out of the Hex, and so on a loss suffer 100% casualties. Had he been fighting, Ansom would not have ended Turn until the caster was found and captured or his corpse collected, just for the purpose of testing the Pliers on a caster. They could even have had Maggie get a Findamancy scroll from the MK, and dragon-chain it to the battlefield to uncover a Caster that had found a way to hide.
Kreistor wrote:Parson is always an exception.
Oberon wrote:That's a cheap position.
It's an accurate position. Parson is subject to many Erf rules, but not others. As an exception, what he can or cannot do is not evidence unless it is replicated by an Erfworlder or mentioned specifically. That's been SOP around here since the beginning.
Kreistor wrote:Leaving GK for FAQ was a desperate escape plan attempting to avoid combat by slipping past potential enemies. Stanley could take anyone he wanted, since everyone that he didn't was expected to die in GK.
First off, you're wrong about Stanley being able to take anyone he wanted. He mustered his KISS units and told them point blank that he could only take a few of them
That was not how that sentence was intended to be interpreted. "anyone he wanted" was intended to be interpreted as "any individual he wanted", within the limits of who could be carried (ie. not heavies). You interpreted anyone as "everyone he wanted", which was not my intent and inconsistent with the context of the discussion which was about who he selected and why, not how many he selected.
Kreistor wrote:Not done [Wanda in combat] at the beginning of Book 1, only once they reached the city and there was nowhere else for her to go.
Oberon wrote:Even the simple minded could understand that I was referring to Wanda needing to be present in combat in order to decrypt the fallen enemy dead.
That may have been your intent, but it was prejudicial, because it failed to cover all cases of Wanda's battlefield presence, or lack thereof. She could Uncroak in large numbers before she could Decrypt, and while Decrypting is obvious superior and all she would do now, in early Book 1 she could still Uncroak and have similar effect at a reduced scope and scale. Keeping her back during the opening of Book 1 is a case on point for me. Despite her stacking leadership bonus to Uncroaked, she was kept far from the battlelines, until she had infinite Decryption and an Artifact bonus to stack with her Leadership bonus to Decrypted.
Claiming that this didn't happen much in Book 1 when she didn't have the 'pliers is not an intelligent counter.
Why? Because it's direct evidence against your position? With only the Capital remaining, Stanley still held all of his casters in GK against the RCC forces.
And let's note exactly what you said there. "when she didn't have the pliers" implies that having the pliers is the reason Wanda was permitted to attend the Battleforce. Since there is only one known caster with an Arkentool, that caster is the lone exception, so what happens to her while she carries the 'pliers is not evidence of what life is like for anyone that does not have an Arkentool.
And, just as another case in point, Wanda was flying around collecting croaked WL to uncroak at the very beginning of TBfGK. That was behavior which risked her to a surprise combat.
Not exactly. She began in Tunnels. She was on GK Turn (since she was Moving), when the body can be moved out of the combat hex to a hex where no RCC units were located, so that she was never in danger. And drache mentioned the Table, (which I had completely forgotten about, thanks) which ensured no RCC units were in a Hex that she entered.
Kreistor wrote:[Vanna] Inside a city with a portal to MK. If the spell succeeded, she would be on Turn and could be flown to safety. If it failed, she could step into MK. She was never in danger.
Oberon wrote:BS. She was flying around the wilderness and not sequestered inside a city until the FAQ forces reached Jetstone.
Except for one thing: my position is not an absolute. Sizemore states that casters are "almost never" on the battlefield. That means sometimes they can be on the battlefield. You can cite and cite and cite, and you can never actually disprove Sizemore. It's impossible, because the fallback position is, "We're watching only the important parts, missing vast numbers of battles, and so can never have a sense of what is average."
It is amusing to watch you try, though.
But here, I'll hand you one. There are two examples of unnecesaary casters in battles where they are either not defending their own Capital or cannot get to a Portal -- the Dittomancer on the Bridge, and Vanna on the tower. There you do. Happy?
And it doesn't prove Sizemore wrong at all. His statement is not an absolute, and is only disproven if we can get data on all of the fights we missed.
Kreistor wrote:No, we can't [count Chewie]. He was Neutral, and not under orders from a Ruler. This is about how Sides use their Casters, not whether Casters want to fight.
Oberon wrote:Right... Citation needed. You know for a fact that Chewie is just a neutral caster ignoring his needs to maintain his upkeep by buying or creating a scroll to try to cast on Parson?
*Sound of jaw dropping to floor*
"He's a free Carnymancer, Originally from FAQ." Marie. Today's comic.
And the rest, where you talk about Upkeep.... DUUUUUDE! What the frack do you think MK is? It's the home for Barbarian Casters. Free Casters. Unsided Casters. Neutral Casters. They're all synonymous. The whole point of Parson sending Maggie, Sizemore, and Wanda to the MK (prior to the discussion of the volcano link) was so that when the side ended, they would be free. That's why Bea sent her casters through when her side ended, or else they would have been disbanded like every other Unaroyal unit and Jojo wouldn't even exist now.
If you need citation on that, go the Wiki and have a read. You'll find all the citiation is there, all ready for you to scan.
Kreistor wrote:Janice and Marie are Neutral, and not an example. Sizemore chose to put himself in harms way, and was not acting under Parson's orders. We're talking about how a Side treats its casters, not how Casters choose to act when given free will.
Another set of extenuating circumstances, will it ever end? "2 of the casters are neutral, and the other one wasn't ordered into combat, so none of it counts."
No, they're not on point for you at all. You're the one trying to prove that casters are used in Armies. I have no idea how you think Marie and Janis in MK, not even on a continent with an Army, are examples of anything remotely relevant.
Was the dittomancer ordered into combat? Nope! He never was. He stood back and doubled (quadrupled!) arrows in flight.
This isn't about Casters being in melee combat. This is about them being with an Army. Teh Dittomancer is
a direct example, but not in this way. Melee combat is totally irrelevant.
Kreistor wrote:And none of [the rather large set of examples of casters being in the front lines] are examples of Sides using Casters in armies, unless they are mounting a desperate defense of their Capital city.
It's not a theory. It's a Klog.
You need words like "unless", or "special circumstance", or "desperate situation" to even attempt to counter the many examples I've provided.
All of your examples are either :
1. Desperate defences of Capitals with Portals nearby from which the Casters can escape
2. Not people in front lines of Armies. Individuals fighting other individuals far from battle lines, and in the case of MK, not even on the same continent.
That's not "exception", that's Pattern. Remember that Sizemore says "almost never", so exceptions do occur. There were 9 City captures leading up to the BfGK, which makes Capital Defences rare examples of battles. And don't forget Transylvito's attacks on Carpool, which are not intended to conquer, just loot for the Treasury. How many cities did Ansom recapture for Gobwin Knob on the way to Unaroyal and Spacerock? More non-Captial defences to add to the stack.
But we do not see these plot-irrelevant Battles. There can be a thousand battles oing on across Erfworld right now, but we're seeing only one very important one that has dire consequences for the Defender, just as in Book 1.
Oberon wrote:Why don't you give it up?
Because it's fun to see you implode. People like you, that love to directly insult other people's intelligence, are the easiest. No one respects that kind of language, so really, I can't lose, no matter what I say. I gain points simply by treating you with respect, despite your vacuous taunting.
Oh, you don't think I'm doing this to actually convince YOU
of anything, do you? That's clearly impossible: you'll never let anyone convince you of anything.
Kreistor wrote:We are analysts, not experts.
[quote="Oberon"]I'd be careful how you use that word, when you prove yourself more willing to discount evidence on the basis of claiming "special circumstance, doesn't count!" and "written word is contradicted, so historical evidence must be wrong!"[quote]
Well, present some evidence instead of opinion, and I'll discount it for you. I'm discounting your opinions, not your evidence. I have yet to see any evidence, actually, just taunts and opinion.