Summer Updates - 014

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Re: Summer Updates - 014

Postby DunkelMentat » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:00 am

Look at that! Jillian's got a nice little butt there.

The writing in this update was excellent.
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Re: Summer Updates - 014

Postby badninja » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:24 am

I guess Jillian is a little too rough around the edges. Vinny might need to remind her about proper edict like he did, but I feel that she will not ever fit in with royalty again.
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Re: Summer Updates - 014

Postby atteSmythe » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:54 am

DunkelMentat wrote:Look at that! Jillian's got a nice little butt there.

The writing in this update was excellent.

Excellent update all around - I think the image is just fantastic, too. Good story bits, good rules bits, character depth, and a bit of humor sprinkled in for good measure. This might actually be my favorite summer update to date.
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Re: Summer Updates - 014

Postby SteveMB » Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:01 pm

badninja wrote:I guess Jillian is a little too rough around the edges. Vinny might need to remind her about proper edict like he did, but I feel that she will not ever fit in with royalty again.

I don't think she'll completely fit in with royalty, but she might react better that we (or she) expects if Don King treats her with respect (which seems likely -- I don't see why he'd have her brought to the capital for a personal audience unless he intended to try to persuade her to cooperate voluntarily with whatever plan he has in mind).
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Re: Summer Updates - 014

Postby Spot » Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:05 pm

HandofShadows wrote:Hmn. I wonder where Vinny EVER got the idea that Jillian didn't have any manners. :roll:
We should be seeing the TV capital soon and get a look at one of Erfworlds major powers.


Maybe they are a major power, maybe not. We still don't know how large Erfworld is.

If Erfworld is relatively small, then TV is a major power.

If Erfworld is as huge as Earth, then TV could be the equivalent of one of the small European city-states from the middle ages, like Florence or Burgundy. To a Western European of the time, they were pretty powerful. To the Chinese of the same time period, they'd be laughably tiny and weak barbarian pocket kingdoms out in the middle of nowhere.

So... if Erfworld is as big as I guess that it is, the whole "conquer the whole world" strategy could take many dozens of books, with the conquest of every single member of the former Crown Coalition taking only a fraction of the total.
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Re: Summer Updates - 014

Postby SteveMB » Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:25 pm

Spot wrote:
HandofShadows wrote:Hmn. I wonder where Vinny EVER got the idea that Jillian didn't have any manners. :roll:
We should be seeing the TV capital soon and get a look at one of Erfworlds major powers.


Maybe they are a major power, maybe not. We still don't know how large Erfworld is.

True. That said, Translyvito is certainly a bigger regional power (for however big a chunk of Erfworld the "region" is) than it was before -- they lost three warlords and a gaggle of expendable bats; the other members of the Coalition lost considerably more.

Of course, that could change... if, say, the scenario Vinny worried about came to pass because Carport was now owned by or allied to a side that had a Foolamancer and some heavy combat units....
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Re: Summer Updates - 014

Postby DevilDan » Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:20 pm

Kreistor wrote:Authors must have license to describe things. "Scrubby" did not come with any indication of different rules for hills, nor "craggy" for mountains. They are, for now, just adjectives. Did you think all mountain hexes would look the same? The same 1000' tall mountain repeated over and over? Or did you expect something more realistic with some mountain ranges steeper than others, and some snow topped, and others...

It's just an adjective. For the moment.


Agreed. Just because twolls or tchotchkes, for example, vary in appearance doesn't mean that they are qualitatively or quantitatively different from the perspective of game mechanics. You can also think of them as different tilesets. In one part of Erf, you get grass and in another you get stone, but they are really the same in terms of movement, combat, and all calculations thereof: flat or neutrla terrain.

Kreistor wrote:But this is the first update with no readily identifiable new rules or explanations. The one thing we can say is that Al is again shown as a vampire, and so we should probably rethink the conclusions in 13.


Could there be "vampire brands" as there are elf brands? Or different powers based on different colors, as with dwagons? Too little information at this point. Maybe he does fly and just doesn't, for whatever reason.
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Re: Summer Updates - 014

Postby HandofShadows » Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:04 pm

badninja wrote:I guess Jillian is a little too rough around the edges. Vinny might need to remind her about proper edict like he did, but I feel that she will not ever fit in with royalty again.


Again? She never fit in with royalty to start with! :lol: Her life since then has just made it even harder to try and fit in.

Unconnected thought. I wonder if will get an Erfworld smiles?
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Re: Summer Updates - 014

Postby Maldeus » Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:51 pm

Kreistor wrote:Authors must have license to describe things. "Scrubby" did not come with any indication of different rules for hills, nor "craggy" for mountains. They are, for now, just adjectives. Did you think all mountain hexes would look the same? The same 1000' tall mountain repeated over and over? Or did you expect something more realistic with some mountain ranges steeper than others, and some snow topped, and others...

It's just an adjective. For the moment.

But this is the first update with no readily identifiable new rules or explanations. The one thing we can say is that Al is again shown as a vampire, and so we should probably rethink the conclusions in 13.


Not quite true. The whole "minimum upkeep" thing is from this update, confirming that provisions reduce upkeep and heavily implying that no matter what, you still have to pay at least one shmucker as upkeep.
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Re: Summer Updates - 014

Postby DevilDan » Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:44 pm

Maldeus wrote:Not quite true. The whole "minimum upkeep" thing is from this update, confirming that provisions reduce upkeep and heavily implying that no matter what, you still have to pay at least one shmucker as upkeep.

Or "enough to keep her on minimum upkeep for five turns" could be interpreted as meaning that those supplies would be enough to keep her from starving (whether that means immediate disbanding or just a loss in stats is a separate issue) for five turns.
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Re: Summer Updates - 014

Postby Cmdr I. Heartly Noah » Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:16 pm

Kreistor wrote:But this is the first update with no readily identifiable new rules or explanations. The one thing we can say is that Al is again shown as a vampire, and so we should probably rethink the conclusions in 13.


Uhh... update 008 didn't really tell us anything.

And what do you mean, Al is shown as a vampire? "Again?" He was shown as a vampire before?

We've seen eleven vampires so far. Ten of those are man-sized; one is fat, but not quite as big (I think) as Al; we can call that a wash. All eleven have grey skin (some slightly greener or bluer) and red eyes. Unfortunately we don't know about Al's eyes, but we know his skin is tan; something we can assume is impossible for normal Vampires. At best (for you) that's a wash, but I think it's support that Al is not a Vampire. How do our Vampires dress? As greasers, mafiosos, and one wears a Hawaiian shirt. Al wears Roman-style robes. Hardly difinitive, so I'll give you this one as a wash, again. Ears, noses, and teeth: Vampires all seem to have pointy ears, have a variety of noses, and show their fangs about 1/3 of the time. Al has pointy ears, a pig nose, and has not yet shown fangs. I'll grant you pointy ears, it's certainly not a Man trait (though neither is being "enormous"), and you might say the pig nose doesn't stick out too much from the variety of noses. If Al just failed to display his fangs because we've only seen him up close once, then maybe. Call that one point. Vampires fly. Al doesn't fly. He can barely walk up steps. Al sweats. Do Vampires sweat? I dunno. We also know Vampires keep Doombats and sleep in caskets; we haven't seen Al do either, but we haven't seen him not do them. So, overall, it's a wash. Al might be a weird Vampire, or a weird Man, or neither. We have no idea.
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Re: Summer Updates - 014

Postby Anton Gaist » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:25 pm

Cmdr I. Heartly Noah wrote:Al might be a weird Vampire, or a weird Man, or neither. We have no idea.


Weird Al, eh?

I just don't have enough information yet to form an opinion either way, it could be either one. We haven't seen Don King fly yet either, for that matter, nor have we seen his fangs. That ball is still up in the air as far as I care.

Great bit of info on the rations and upkeep. These summer updates are great.
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Re: Summer Updates - 014

Postby Lunaya » Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:24 pm

I say Jillian surprises everyone by being a perfect lady. Just wait.
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Re: Summer Updates - 014

Postby Maldeus » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:29 pm

I'm going to place my (metaphorical) bets on Al's being a vampire, but I wouldn't say there's enough evidence to say it's one or the other.

Also, on the size of Erfworld. For starters, not many wargames involve Earth-sized worlds, because it's just too much trouble to design. Granted, this limitation does not apply to Erfworld in comic, but it does apply to Rob. Second, Gobwin Knob alone once controlled eleven cities. Maybe they were one of the bigger factions, but I doubt they were ever some kind of superpower of unparalleled size, which means there's likely a lot of Sides with cities in the double-digits, and Transylvito could be one of them. I'm betting we'll see a lot of cities change hands over the summer updates because the battles are fairly run of the mill. Send in Decrypted, capture city, have a party, done.
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Re: Summer Updates - 014

Postby moose o death » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:47 am

the decrypted are not supertroops, they are the standard troops they always were. they simply have a large number of them...we assume, if bogroll was incinerated, then it's a safe bet a large amount of RCC forces were too. sure bogroll was specifically incinerated, but so were thousands of RCC troops.

but lets assume the decrypted are a very large army, you can either split them up and conquer as many cities as possible while surprise is on GK's side, or the whole legion descends on one city at a time. it's a safe bet if you do that the second city will be heavily fortified and as you progress the whole world rallies against you.

if you split up and take multiple cities simulataneously wanda cannot decrypt as many troops and eventually the side's numbers dwindle to stanley's real troops.

GK is NOT overpowered as an attacking force, only as a defencive force. and that's ONLY if rcc troops weren't utterly destroyed en mass. assuming that GK forces are about to lay waste to the whole world is a mistake. what good is an overpowered protagonist? either GK is overpowered and parson is facing them as an opponent or GK is still weaker than it's enemies.
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Re: Summer Updates - 014

Postby Maldeus » Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:11 am

My point, Moose, is that the next couple of battles probably aren't going to be terribly interesting. The RCC is crushed and Gobwin Knob has a sizeable army. It isn't hard to see how these next hundred turns are going to go.
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Re: Summer Updates - 014

Postby Pax » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:13 am

Lunaya wrote:I say Jillian surprises everyone by being a perfect lady. Just wait.

We'd certainly get a good spit-take form Vinny, if she pulled that off. "Proper" ladylike Princess' gown, and all! :lol:
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Re: Summer Updates - 014

Postby Cmdr I. Heartly Noah » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:31 am

moose o death wrote:we assume, if bogroll was incinerated, then it's a safe bet a large amount of RCC forces were too. sure bogroll was specifically incinerated, but so were thousands of RCC troops.


"we" don't. Bogroll was croaked, burned, and probably torn apart and scattered to ensure he was really dead and not coming back. This all happened long enough before the eruption that one can assume that it was sufficient in preventing him being decrypted later.

We don't really know what happened to Bogroll specifically, and we don't know what the actual effects and ramifications of dying by volcano are. We saw several troops as fireballs, and we've seen some charred corpses after. But we don't know if any of the dead can't be decrypted, and if so, we have no idea how many. Maybe it's 100. Maybe it's 5,000. But we have no way to confirm and I don't know if it's right to assume that someone can't be decrypted because they were burned.

but lets assume the decrypted are a very large army, you can either split them up and conquer as many cities as possible while surprise is on GK's side, or the whole legion descends on one city at a time. it's a safe bet if you do that the second city will be heavily fortified and as you progress the whole world rallies against you.


Well, if anybody can pull off a successful series of attacks with his split forces, it's Parson. As far as the second city being fortified, well, who's to say the first city wasn't? And even if they found out about the first attack (it shouldn't be a surprise), the second city can only fortify better if it has the resources, and then only to an upper limit of 5. If GK can collect 2/3 of the RCC army sent to get them, they can theoretically crack any city in the world (if they add a little siege, at least). Moreover, with each successive victory, GK can increase its army's size. All you have to do is be able to protect Wanda. I think Jack and a flight of Dwagons can manage that. And as for the whole world rallying against you, what was happening when the RCC attacked? A couple friends on a picnic? They may have been overconfident, but that's because it was the largest combined force any of them had ever seen. And even if they can put together a force twice the size, Parson can asymmetric warfare their butts off. But more likely, after the failure of the first RCC, they'll give up on trying again and instead focus on their own defense.

what good is an overpowered protagonist?


A fair point, but only if the conflict is Parson+GK vs the world. If it's Parson vs himself, or Parson vs Stanley, or Parson vs Erfworld, it's just fine. Powerful, even seemingly invincible men can have great drama in their lives. I mean, with Parson at the helm, I think they can do a lot of damage. I'd believe that if it was just Parson, Wandapliers, Jack, and 20 pikers. But Parson has to make himself do it. The easier it is to wipe out whole swaths of people, the harder it will be on Parson. Because he's not fighting for survival anymore. Plus there's always the chance that someone on the other side can pull a trick or two. And there's the conflict between Wanda and Jillian.

Pax wrote:
Lunaya wrote:I say Jillian surprises everyone by being a perfect lady. Just wait.

We'd certainly get a good spit-take form Vinny, if she pulled that off. "Proper" ladylike Princess' gown, and all! :lol:


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Re: Summer Updates - 014

Postby DevilDan » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:22 pm

moose o death wrote:the decrypted are not supertroops, they are the standard troops they always were. they simply have a large number of them...we assume, if bogroll was incinerated, then it's a safe bet a large amount of RCC forces were too. sure bogroll was specifically incinerated, but so were thousands of RCC troops.


The archons were very clearly incinerated, yet there certainly were enough of them left for Wanda to decrypt.
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Re: Summer Updates - 014

Postby Anton Gaist » Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:03 pm

moose o death wrote:GK is NOT overpowered as an attacking force, only as a defencive force. and that's ONLY if rcc troops weren't utterly destroyed en mass. assuming that GK forces are about to lay waste to the whole world is a mistake. what good is an overpowered protagonist? either GK is overpowered and parson is facing them as an opponent or GK is still weaker than it's enemies.


Or GK is pretty much on the level with the other Powers in Erfworld, I doubt the RCC threw everything they had against GK. They may have sent a rather large combined army, but I don't see them (except perhaps for Jetstone) committing a significant number of their individual armies.

I wouldn't have sent more than 15%, anyway.

So if Wanda was able to decrypt, say, 50% of the units croaked by the courtyard and final tunnel battles and the volcano, and considering almost all of Jetstone's units were uncroaked before that (assuming uncroaked can't be decrypted), that'd put the units acquired by GK at around 2900, far less than what Jetstone sent in the first place. Not overpowered, no matter what way you look at it.

As for an overpowered protagonist, it's true that Gotti is the best military strategist in Erfworld. That doesn't necessarily make him overpowered, he depends on other units and resources. If Stanley decided to ignore his suggestions and took direct control of the coming battles' strategies, well, it'd be back to square one. On the other hand, if Gotti becomes too much of a nuisance, what's to keep someone else from buying the Perfect Warlord spell and summon someone to match him?
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