Book 2 – Page 69

[Kreistor]

What Ossomer might do is order the Archons to Capture Slately. That they would have no reason to disobey. The benefits? Any units outside Jetstone disband if Tramennis is not yet heir, so this prevents them from poofing, allowing them to be Decrypted. But there's another reason.

Forcing Slately to ally with GK gives GK access to a different set of Natural Allies. Elves won't work with GK because GK already uses Hobgobwins. Jetstone as an ally gives GK a wider range of Natural Allies.

Yup this is a good plan. Another one would be "target the casters, Slately is too strong right now." I bet this Ossomer deal is going to lead up to Ossomer ordering the archons to do something other than croak Stanley but not a full-fledged turn.

Tower's falling. Attacking casters that are already on the way to the grave is a waste of effort. If there were a Shockmancer there, he'd take him out, but the Dollamancer, Hat-a-mancer, and Dittomancer aren't worth the trouble. Maybe the Dittomancer if he doubles arrows tartgetting Archons, but he's burned juice already, so may not have enough to bother with.

[0beron]

Maybe the Dittomancer if he doubles arrows tartgetting Archons, but he's burned juice already, so may not have enough to bother with.

Since he hasn't seen action in recent turns, we can likely assume he has saved up to his juice cap. And since all he did at the bride battle was quadruple the arrows once, I doubt he spent much juice. (Anything he did while on the tower was done using stored spells from the tower itself, per T's orders)

[Dr Pepper]

{something or other}

0h dear, this will be s0 much fun when the 0ther Oberon will be around.

Nah, this one is just a big zero.

[Dr Pepper]

I still don't understand, though, why Sylvia hasn't sent the big Reds up topside to scour the portico with their flame breath.

UP is a change of hex, which GK can't do since it's not their turn. Remember, Parson had to cheat to get them down in the first place.

[Kreistor]

Maybe the Dittomancer if he doubles arrows tartgetting Archons, but he's burned juice already, so may not have enough to bother with.

Since he hasn't seen action in recent turns, we can likely assume he has saved up to his juice cap. And since all he did at the bride battle was quadruple the arrows once, I doubt he spent much juice. (Anything he did while on the tower was done using stored spells from the tower itself, per T's orders)

That entire order ran, "Casters, shoot down yellows only! Use only stored spells from the tower. Save your own juice."

By your restricted interpretation, no caster can even engage the Archons, making them non dangerous. They are permitted to only shoot at yellow dwagons, and only with air defenses.

Orders last only as long as the situation remains similar. If something changes the situation, no unit is limited to orders that were made without knowledge of the new element. A piker stack set to hold a bridge against gobwins might be required to hold it even if hobgobwins show up (even if the hobgobwins are more likely to win, they would be compelled because there is still a small chance of victory), but if those hobgobwins are mounted archery units on unipegataurs that the pikers can't even hit, the order cannot be achieved and so becomes null... they cannot hold, only buy time by dying, but buying time wasn't their task. They were expected to hold the bridge, which is now impossible, leaving only self-preservation. Even the requirement for leaderless units to engage non-allied stacks fails, because they cannot engage a flying unit. So flight is permitted, if they feel it is in their Ruler's greater self-interest that they still exist to fight in the future. (It's also in their Ruler's self0interest to know the bridge was taken bby units they could not respond to.)

In this case, Trammenis' orders were issued before the suicidal fall to Atrium, and so the situation is drastically different for the casters. They were attacking ground units that can threaten the Tower, not air units that Archers were raining arrows down on everything in the Atrium, and instead of being in superior position, the Jetstone casters are in an inferior position. There are no yellow dwagons to attack anymore.

We don't see Trammenis issue different orders to the caster, but he probably doesn't need to. The rainy day he was saving their juice for has arrived, and they all know it.

[Infidel]

I say that I'm loving the last few pages. Of course, now I'm wondering where the text updates went. I don't think we have ever gone 4 pages or more without one since book 1 ended.

Rob announced several weeks ago via RSS (at least that's how I got it), that he was suspending the text updates for the rest of the book. Something about how all of the setup and subplots that needed to be handled have already come to a good place, and that writing any more of them wouldn't add anything to the story at this junction. I'm sure they'll be back for the next book, though I definitely miss them now.

Ahh cool, that's probably why I missed it. Thank you. When I get into a port, usually I have only an hour or two of internet. So I quickly log on my sites and extract the files to read later, so the rss feeds don't get read. This port, Guam, is an exception. My ship is arriving over 7 days after I do, so it's more of an impromptu all expenses paid vacation since I'm being paid to wait.

[Infidel]

2) There's an Oberon here already lol? I've always spelled mine with a zero just for the fun of it haha

I admit seeing your name and thinking, "Oh dear."

[Khordas]

I'm betting we leave this one on a cliffhanger. Next scene: Transylvito. In the last panel you can just barely see the bat hanging from the top of the tower. I love the attention to detail, by the way. I don't think they've missed showing the bat in any view that shows the finial on the tower roof.

[splintermute]

Maybe the Dittomancer if he doubles arrows tartgetting Archons, but he's burned juice already, so may not have enough to bother with.

Since he hasn't seen action in recent turns, we can likely assume he has saved up to his juice cap. And since all he did at the bride battle was quadruple the arrows once, I doubt he spent much juice. (Anything he did while on the tower was done using stored spells from the tower itself, per T's orders)

That entire order ran, "Casters, shoot down yellows only! Use only stored spells from the tower. Save your own juice."

By your restricted interpretation, no caster can even engage the Archons, making them non dangerous. They are permitted to only shoot at yellow dwagons, and only with air defenses.

Orders last only as long as the situation remains similar. If something changes the situation, no unit is limited to orders that were made without knowledge of the new element. A piker stack set to hold a bridge against gobwins might be required to hold it even if hobgobwins show up (even if the hobgobwins are more likely to win, they would be compelled because there is still a small chance of victory), but if those hobgobwins are mounted archery units on unipegataurs that the pikers can't even hit, the order cannot be achieved and so becomes null... they cannot hold, only buy time by dying, but buying time wasn't their task. They were expected to hold the bridge, which is now impossible, leaving only self-preservation. Even the requirement for leaderless units to engage non-allied stacks fails, because they cannot engage a flying unit. So flight is permitted, if they feel it is in their Ruler's greater self-interest that they still exist to fight in the future. (It's also in their Ruler's self0interest to know the bridge was taken bby units they could not respond to.)

In this case, Trammenis' orders were issued before the suicidal fall to Atrium, and so the situation is drastically different for the casters. They were attacking ground units that can threaten the Tower, not air units that Archers were raining arrows down on everything in the Atrium, and instead of being in superior position, the Jetstone casters are in an inferior position. There are no yellow dwagons to attack anymore.

We don't see Trammenis issue different orders to the caster, but he probably doesn't need to. The rainy day he was saving their juice for has arrived, and they all know it.

Also, the fact that Ace and Cubbins are enchanting Slately's gear is proof of the impermanence of orders.

[Kreistor]

Also, the fact that Ace and Cubbins are enchanting Slately's gear is proof of the impermanence of orders.

A much more elegant example than mine. I could have saved a lot of text remembering that.

[effataigus]

2) There's an Oberon here already lol? I've always spelled mine with a zero just for the fun of it haha

Hmm...

Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery, but I'd argue being unaware of someone is the sincerest form of belittlement.

These are mutually exclusive, but you almost seem to be doing both!

Welcome back, Infidel!

[Jorgath]

Ahh cool, that's probably why I missed it. Thank you. When I get into a port, usually I have only an hour or two of internet. So I quickly log on my sites and extract the files to read later, so the rss feeds don't get read. This port, Guam, is an exception. My ship is arriving over 7 days after I do, so it's more of an impromptu all expenses paid vacation since I'm being paid to wait.

Which ship are you on? I'm assuming that you're Navy, although I'm not guessing at which Navy. I'm just curious because IIRC some ships have internet access at sea, and I was wondering which ones didn't.

[Infidel]

AFAIK all Navy/MSC ships have internet access now, but they all share the same network. So to limit bandwidth they used to use a black list, but last year they started using a white list which is significantly more restrictive. Last year I could access Erfworld, although it took the page almost 30 mins to load. Now I get a webpage telling me that the site is not on the white list, and gives me directions to request the site be reviewed and added. Considering the conditions, I haven't bothered. For example: One of the conditions is that the site must contribute to the ship's mission.

I'm between ships right now, but I can't really say which one I'm going to because that would be tantamount to giving ship's movement and I don't want to lose my job. But I'm not in the Navy anymore. I'm in the MSC which operates the supply ships for the Navy..

[drachefly]

You'd think they could just demote the priority of packets to unofficial sites, and institute a user bandwidth limit… oh well.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Which ship are you on?

I'm between ships right now, but I can't really say which one I'm going to because that would be tantamount to giving ship's movement and I don't want to lose my job. But I'm not in the Navy anymore. I'm in the MSC which operates the supply ships for the Navy..

Well, it never hurts to ask.

[LogicsFate]

I did not get the Three Quiet thing.

Then I read the Urban dictionary entry, and still I did not get it.

Then I started cooking, at a seemingly random moment I got it. My body shook and I uttered a deep and low groan. Perhaps my deepest/lowest groan ever, as if some part of my spirit was attempting to leave via my mouth.

Loved the comic, I may never be the same.

>Cheese Bread is delicious.

[fjolnir]

The attacks are coming in 3 second volleys, so after a few attacks, one, two, three...quiet.

[Dancing Cthulhu]

How come the archers on the balcony haven't attacked Ossomer? And why hasn't Slately ordered the tower evacuated? When it falls, everything inside will die, giving Wanda all those units for free.

I think Slately and co are waiting till they are ready so as to not drive him off or get him to stack up with the archons to soon. They can't know that Oss already suspects they are planning to come after him and that he is in to much turmoil to want to raise much of a defense of himself.

Looking back at the relevant text updates we know they were planning on using the remaining arrows to assist in taking down some of the archons, while I think they are planning on going after Oss directly. The casters original plan seemed to go:

- Casters/elites stack up, gear up (Ace's existing accessories/equipment) and attack Oss and any archons that come to his aid, then return to the tower and use the archers and remaining tower defense to clear the way enough for Slately to escape by air (jetpack, the only way to travel).

Slately changed that to a hunting plan (he did say he was leading the battle, even if it wasn't the battle the casters were proposing). He was going to lead the charge and take out Oss and as many Archons as he possibly could to raise money for Trem. How that changed how they were going to use the tower/archers is questionable (since it doesn't appear they were planning to come back to it), but it is pretty clear it isn't going to be in play much longer unless something drastic happens.

Stand down and let themselves get murdered? Remember, Slately's stated purpose is to kill Archons for Charlie's bounty, so that he can promote Tramennis so that he'll become King when Slately dies. There is one out for every unit ordered to do something: if they think it is against the best interest of their Ruler (Stanley in this case), they can disobey the order. An order to commit suicide is simply not going to be obeyed.

Units can surrender, or something like it (though we have more seen units captured). I guess the question is the circumstances under which they can surrender. Do units have to seek the approval of their ruler/CWL? Can only a ruler or CWL do it? I'm sure their must be an option even regular troops can consider, if they are outclassed or certain of death, where they can fight to the death for their side or surrender to their foes (but not turn).

Of course I'm not sure if that would be the case here, since I don't know how Oss and 23 Archons stack up against Slately, 4 casters, whatever elites join them, plus 1 unipegatuar for each and some Orlys - as well as Slatey's special accessories and the other war gear Ace mentioned for making their units tougher in the fight.

What Ossomer might do is order the Archons to Capture Slately. That they would have no reason to disobey. The benefits? Any units outside Jetstone disband if Tramennis is not yet heir, so this prevents them from poofing, allowing them to be Decrypted. But there's another reason.

Forcing Slately to ally with GK gives GK access to a different set of Natural Allies. Elves won't work with GK because GK already uses Hobgobwins. Jetstone as an ally gives GK a wider range of Natural Allies.

That would be an interesting development with lots of room for drama.

I can see several possibilities given the last panel . . . Slately stumbles off the tower into the waiting arms of Oss, who saves his life and then A) captures him, thus effectively ending the battle [checkmate!] or B) puts him back into the tower, thus triggering whatever unpleasantry befalls a traitor. Or possibly just stumbles off the tower and plunges to his death or severe injury, once again effectively ending the battle and destroying Oss's soul as he witnesses his father's death but was too slow to save him . . . But given the cracks that appeared in the last panel, another volley or two of death & boomination is going to drop the entire edifice.

They seem like plausible, potential outcomes. It will be something of a shame if someone doesn't get to put the modified regalia of Jetstone to use after so much build (as an aspect of all the other building going on), plus Ace's other accessories, equipment, for the units flying out with them... unless of course something even more interesting takes its place.

I remember (I think) a throw away line from early in this book, where Parson commented he didn't know exactly what would happen if Jetstone fell without an heir but while they have the current one decrypted. Perhaps if something did happen to Slately and it broke Oss quick enough a turn could occur, Jetstone would have an heir and it would be him flying around the the war regalia of Jetstone.

I still don't understand, though, why Sylvia hasn't sent the big Reds up topside to scour the portico with their flame breath. It's just chock full of high value targets, not to mention the ranks of useless archers just idly standing there trying to come to grips with their imminent demise and / or decryption. You'd have thought that someone would have had the sense to send down for more ammo so they can sustain fire into the courtyard, but there seems to be a lot of hur-dur going on up there. Or at least send them below so they can be of SOME use down the road.

I don't think she can, mechanically speaking. The various zones in an enemy city are practically sealed off as far as an attacking side off turn is concerned, they can't cross the boundaries separating them unless a loophole exists and then it takes serious effort and some risk to exploit - hence the whole reason for the dwagon fall. There is no apparent way to make the dwagons float back up in such a way that would allow them to reenter the airspace (and since it seems it takes move for a flyer to take off I guess if there was a way then the dwagons would just be floating, not actually flying, with all the limits that involves).

So the dwagons are stuck on the ground with zero move contesting the garrison while the Archons and Oss are in the airspace and there they both shall remain till their next turn arrives.

I'm not sure if they archers can be resupplied either. Their ammunition pops at the beginning of the turn in their quivers, doesn't it? And once it is depleted that is it (though perhaps a fabricator like a twoll or dollmancer could make more), like a casters juice. I don't think there are stockpiles or anything like that. Still at least some of them haven't completely depleted their supply of arrows this turn (casters have said that a couple of times), but currently it was going to be used as part of Slately's attack on the flyers.

Of course I don't disagree that the guys who aren't going to be any use on the top of the tower should probably have been sent away by now (though maybe Ace had something for them - the did seem to be rocket like objects in the armory, didn't there?)

While I hope Ossomer somehow survives, the following image just popped into my brain: Siege hits the tower hard, causing Slately to stumble and fall over the side. In a flash and without even thinking, Ossomer reaches out, catches Slately, and deposits him back on the roof. Slately has barely an instant to realize that "the Ossomer-thing" has saved both his life and perhaps his side, and he looks up into his son's tear-stained eyes ... just in time to see Ossomer auto-disband for the treason of saving the ruler of the opposing side from certain death. Instantly, down in the dungeon, Wanda looks up, startled, wondering what the hell just happened. A chill runs down her back for reasons she does not understand. Somewhere, a Titan smiles.

I like the sound of that.

Stanley was troubled by the thought of his dwagons being decrypted, but that is a step removed since they had already died (and he knows what that is like). A dwagon or decrypted turning/resisting might be more troubling, though not necessarily something that would physically harm the master.

Could the title of the issue ("It's Raining Men") only now be coming into play? (Parson's harvesting exploit would be more "It's Raining Dwagonburgers" or "It's Raining Hobgobs" then men). Suppose Slately orders his archers to charge off the tower en masse; could all the falling archers interfere with either the Archons or Sylvia's siege?

Hehe, funny image. I doubt they'd interfere with the Archons who are all spread out at the airspace boundaries to protect them a bit from the arrows and air defenses earlier (everyone in GK seems to have forgotten Oss). Falling on Sylvia's siege though... we have seen a small falling stone can deflect an arrow. I guess a person could be killed/injured by someone falling on them.

I've been wondering about all of them for a while now, with the tower in such clear danger why Slately never ordered any unnecessary guys down. They were/are planning to use at least some of the archers - the ones still with ammunition - in their attack, but the others?

It seems clear he's taking all the casters with him - Lloyd Elliott and Pierce are getting the unipegataurs ready and mounting all the top units (including, presumably, Elliott and Pierce). They're saving three for Slately, Cubbins and Ace. Slately doesn't seem the type to rely entirely on an untested technology - he'll be mounted, but with the jetpack as a failsafe in case anything happens to his mount.

Agreed. Heh, I left out the most important bit there, Lloyd was always going, since his ability to double the unipegs of the max stack needed him to be part of that stack.

[Beeskee]

Considering the conditions, I haven't bothered. For example: One of the conditions is that the site must contribute to the ship's mission.

This site includes considerable discussions on military tactics and strategy.

If you have a hard copy of book 1, loan it to your CO. On a related note, Erfworld should offer a military discount on it's store, that always goes over well. Who doesn't want a discount?


(Seriously, I don't want you to get in trouble, but you know your CO better than we do.)

[0beron]

That entire order ran, "Casters, shoot down yellows only! Use only stored spells from the tower. Save your own juice."

By your restricted interpretation, no caster can even engage the Archons, making them non dangerous. They are permitted to only shoot at yellow dwagons, and only with air defenses.

We don't see Trammenis issue different orders to the caster, but he probably doesn't need to. The rainy day he was saving their juice for has arrived, and they all know it.

I think you got geared up for an argument when none was needed haha, I wasn't suggesting that the casters would avoid engagement now, I was simply saying that based on what we've seen this turn, we can assume Lloyd probably has most of his juice remaining, which WOULD make him dangerous against the Archons and therefore worth the extra mount needed to take him along if the King makes a run at the air units.

Orders last only as long as the situation remains similar. If something changes the situation, no unit is limited to orders that were made without knowledge of the new element. A piker stack set to hold a bridge against gobwins might be required to hold it even if hobgobwins show up (even if the hobgobwins are more likely to win, they would be compelled because there is still a small chance of victory), but if those hobgobwins are mounted archery units on unipegataurs that the pikers can't even hit, the order cannot be achieved and so becomes null... they cannot hold, only buy time by dying, but buying time wasn't their task. They were expected to hold the bridge, which is now impossible, leaving only self-preservation. Even the requirement for leaderless units to engage non-allied stacks fails, because they cannot engage a flying unit. So flight is permitted, if they feel it is in their Ruler's greater self-interest that they still exist to fight in the future. (It's also in their Ruler's self-interest to know the bridge was taken bby units they could not respond to.)

On this part however, I have to disagree slightly. The only time we have seen units "adjust" their orders or act without orders has been units with leadership. No basic infantry has ever made a decision about what is in the side's best interest and acted accordingly. So yes, your assessment that a piker commanded to defend a bride against gobwins would continue to do so if engaged by hobgobwins is correct...and it would continue to guard the bridge even if flying units attempted to take the bridge, because those are it's orders. If a caster or warlord was given the same instructions however, THEN they might determine it is in their side's best interest to withdraw in the face of insurmountable odds.

Either way, this kind of discussion on Duty and unit behavior isn't really what the thread is about, so I'll say no more on it here.