MarbitChow wrote:The 'reason' people assume Stanley is an idiot may have something to do with the Cast of Characters page: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erfcast.html
From the Stanley entry - "Weaknesses: Strategy, Critical Thinking, Human Resource Management".
When the author spells it right out for you, taking the opposing point of view requires extraordinary evidence. Since there's a pretty strong correlation between tactics, strategy, and critical thinking, knowing that he's weak in two (Rob's own words) means that assuming he's weak in the 3rd isn't a stretch. Stating that he is strong on tactics requires, at the very least, some evidence that he has used exceptional tactics at some point.
I think the White Wolf RPG's (Vampire, Wwerefwolf the Apocalypse, Mage the Ascension, etc.) had an excellent way of breaking this down. They separated mental capacity into three statistics -- intelligence, wit, and charisma. The last is obviously irrelevant to this particular discussion.
For those games, Intelligence is the stat you used for solving problems when you had lots of time. Wit is what you used when you needed to think on your feet, so Wit got used in Combat, and Intelligence got used out of combat, generally.
Being bad at long term thinking does not necessarily make you bad at short-term. Strategy, Critical Thinking, and HR are all out-of-combat thinking. IN-combat thinking is a completely different beast.
Kreistor wrote:4. That you can reduce survival to a probability is not evidence that someone is lucky. That's like saying, "Hockey players have a 7% chance of scoring on each shot, so Wayne Gretzky must have been the luckiest hockey player ever, because he had only a tiny chance of scoring a record number of goals in that many shots." Wayne Gretzky was talent personified, and the evidence of his extraordinary goal count is evidence that he was supremely talented, not lucky. Exceptional results suggest exceptional ability.
False analogy. I'm not saying that Stanley is lucky because he survived. I'm simply stating that basic probability indicate that basic units will level up to the point where granting them warlord status makes sense as a regular occurrence without any requirement that the unit in question actually be exceptional. The bit of exceptional luck that Stanley received is finding and attuning to the 'Hammer.
No, you quite literally used this to try to prove Stanley was just Lucky. You even tried to Sin my criticism of this attempt into agreement tht he was Lucky.
There is no evidence of Stanley's exceptionalism prior to finding the 'Hammer. His promotion to Warlord is explainable simply by assuming he managed to achieve a few levels,
Plausibility is not evidence. That it might have happened that way doesn't mean it did happen that way.
His success prior to finding the 'Hammer is consistent with simple probability,
Plausibility is not evidence. That it might have happened that way doesn't mean it did happen that way.
Well, my opinion, and Rob's actual description of the character. But hey, go ahead and imagine Stanley as a tactical genius without any evidence to support it whatsoever. If it increases your enjoyment of the comic, more power to you.
Prove that Critical Thinking affects Tactics. Prove that Human Resource Management has anything to do with Tactics (expounded on below).
Don't like the word 'default'? Ok, then I'll say that your position deviates from the author's description of the character more than mine does, so your position requires more proof.
The author has said nothing about his Tactical abilities. That you try to link those three particular mental capacities to Tactics is interesting, but it doesn't even pass a cursory examination. Critical Thinking, the capacity to recognize assumptions and high order thought, has no place on the time-sensitive battlefield. HR Management is meaningless when you are restricted to using whoever is at hand.
Saline promoted him to Chief Warlord, and later to Heir Designate, because he won lots of battles by using the 'Hammer and Dwagons:
Since we don't know how well he would have performed without the Arkenhammer, we don't know how much of his success was due to it.
Again, I do not deny that Erfworlders fail to recognize Stanley''s capacities. I believe that false belief is what has lead so many to underestimate him on the battlefield, and it explains some of why he keeps winning, and giving the perception of being Lucky.
It's this simple: his opponents know what the Arkenhammer does for him. His opponents know what dwagons do. His opponents can prepare for those things, after Stanley has used them often enough. And yet Stanley wins despite their capacity to prepare for him.
Wanda flat out states that Stanley seemed to be an imbecile:
And yet he won before he got the 'Hammer. Remember my point about the usefulness of causing your enemies to underestimate you.
You yourself admit you have no evidence of Stanley actually using clever tactics, since you can't actually tell what orders he is issuing.
I think his escape from Jillian was quite brilliant, actually. It demonstrated he is not as limited to the brute force tactics you want to limit him to, by demonstrating he can conceive of complex deceptions and does not suffer target fixation. It demonstrates that his pride is not more important to him than his survival.
I'm clearly not going to convince you that Stanley is an unremarkable tactician. But you haven't actually shown any evidence of his exceptionalism other than "he's successful, so he must know what he's doing."
It's how I know Wayne Gretzky was exceptional. I don't know how Wayne thought when he deeked and dodged past the defense any more than I know how Stanley thought about his tactical decisions. Wayne scored where others wouldn't. Wayne passed, because he had a natural capacity to recognize when a teammate was in an advantageous scoring position.
But that didn't make Wayne a good General Manager. His failure at Human Resource Management does not make him a bad hockey player, does it?
Just a real world example of what we are talking about.
oslecamo2_temp wrote:Taking advantage of what luck provides you is a sign of excelling.
I hate to resort to a Monty Python cliche, but "no it isn't".
Yeah, it is. Exploiting an advantage on the battlefield requires recognition that an advantage exists, and understanding how to use it tactically. We call it intuition, sometimes. I am not saying that there is evidence that Stanley did this anywhere, but I am saying you haven't got a clue what you're talking about here. oslocamo is absolutely accurate in this statement.
On Earth, there's definitely an argument to be made that a key leadership skill is knowing how to find and keep the right people to delegate to.
Not on the battlefield. You don't have time to manage human resources there. You have no time to find the perfect person, so you use what you have near you to solve the problem you perceive. Figuring out how the non-perfect person can solve a problem with his sub-optimal skill set is Tactics, not Human Resources.
[/quote]But we know how Stanley acquired each of his subordinates, and in every case they were just handed to him (Sizemore popped on his side, Wanda sought him out, Parson popped by fate, etc.). Still no evidence of Stanley's exceptionalism.
Wanda and Jack weren't "handed to him". Wanda Turned when she saw he was going to win. We don't know exactly how Jack was captured, bit he was captured, which requires a choice by Stanley to capture him and attempt to Turn him.
We don't even know how Stanley gained the Arkenhammer. Was it literally found on the ground, or did he beat the sludge out of the previous owner? No clue. You can't even say that was Luck. But it wasn't Luck that he attuned... that was Fate.
We don't know how Maggie, Misty, Manpower, Phat-Singh, Ferdinand, Leeroy, and Toast were gained.
We aren't even close to knowing how Stanley gained his "subordinates". We know only two stories well, one story partially, and the rest are completely unknown.
But this would be Human Resource Management, and an example of something I already admit he is poor at. Knowing who to promote requires strategic thinking.
("Fate" at least, and perhaps a tiny bit of some form of talent. Or the 'meta' stance - he survived because that's how Rob wrote the story.)
