Book 2 – Page 69

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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby MarbitChow » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:25 pm

Kreistor wrote:Your "mathematical" argument is, essentially, "Let's assume Luck decides who wins a fight. If Stanley has only a 0.3% chance of surviving, then Stanley must be extremely lucky. Therefore he is extremely lucky." It's a cyclic argument. Stanley is assumed to be lucky so you can prove that he's lucky. It falls apart because the assumption that he has no Talent in combat or tactics is unprovable.

(MarbitChow begins typing a carefully constructed explanation detailing why Kreistor's summation of his argument is incorrect. After several minutes of furious typing, he glances over, and sees the cartoon he has posted to remind him of his personal obsession...)

Image

(MarbitChow sighs, reluctantly slings his laptop over his shoulder, and begins hitchhiking down the road. Softly, in the background, the theme from the Incredible Hulk TV series can be heard.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Beeskee » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:12 pm

Aww. Cheer up! :)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby civilphil » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:17 pm

Beeskee wrote:Aww. Cheer up! :)


Oh God!! My Eyes!!!!! AND my Ears!!!

((What has been seen cannot be unseen))

I see you and raise you this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE4t1vP3qXs&feature=fvst
Science! It works B@#$%es!!!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Beeskee » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:24 pm

Ahem

Oh and then there's my signature. :)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby civilphil » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:36 pm

No more! No More! I surrender! Mercy!

But that doesn't make me a sissy
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Oberon » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:44 pm

MarbitChow wrote:Stanley didn't start trying to figure out what the 'Hammer does until 100 turns after Parson was summoned, and then only because Parson asked. And the Dwagon gathering is a direct result of feeling threatened by Wanda's horde of decrypted. When we first meet Stanley, he's breaking walnuts with the 'Hammer. The fact that some of the nuts transformed was a lucky accident - he just wanted to crack some nuts. Stanley is a great combat unit - there's no question about that. But I still don't see any actual evidence of any above-average cognitive ability or skills.
It's not smarts, it's dumb luck and a lack of reverence. Remember Wanda's reaction? Something like "That's a holy relic!" And Stanley said something like "Sometimes you need to tame a dwagon, and sometimes you just need to bust a nut" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Say no more!) His discovery was dumb luck, but then so was the discovery of nitroglycerine. Also, the survival of the discovery of nitroglycerine. :lol: I think that this is still all in line with what you've been proposing (as I read it, anyway): Stanley got where he did through luck.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Beeskee » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:20 am

civilphil wrote:But that doesn't make me a sissy


lol that is awesome. But you're right, we should probably stop now. This is by choice, not because I've run out of videos. :D For example, I could have linked every word in this post to another horrifying video, I simply choose not to torture you all further.


I still think Stanley is more than just lucky, I just can't prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt with the existing comics and text updates.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Kreistor » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:49 am

MarbitChow wrote:Stanley didn't start trying to figure out what the 'Hammer does until 100 turns after Parson was summoned, and then only because Parson asked.


Hunh... dunno how I missed this one. The obvious question would be: how did Stanley "accidentally" learn that he could Tame a Dwagon?

Summer Update 4 wrote:His head was making that buzzing noise he hated. Still, he needed to be in control. Get control now.

"Well good!" he said confidently. "Did you, uh...get them to do any good tricks yet?"

Wanda's smile kind of went limp and her eyes widened. She stood and looked slowly in all directions, at the thousands of powerful troops and heavy units assembled all around them.

"They made an army, Lord."

"Huh," said Stanley. He shifted his gaze back and forth over the crowd of soldiers and war beasts. "Yeah. That's a good one."


"Get them to do any good tricks" doesn't suggest to me that Stanley believes finding these powers is accidental. It suggests the Arkentool responds to his desires in some way.

You say, "Did you get your dog to shake hands yet?" You don't say, "Did you get your computer to calculate pi to the one billionth digit yet?" It actually suggests he trained the 'Hammer to do what it does, rather than stumbled upon a set of powers by accident or experimentation.

That would be backed up by the Arkenpliers responding to Wanda's desires by improving her natural ability to uncroak. Did Wanda discover the 'Pliers could Decrypt, or did the 'Pliers decide to Decrypt because Wanda wanted them to?

Which begs the question: why do they not know the full set of powers of the four known Arkentools? If others have Attuned, and they have books that record battles, wouldn't Stanley be able to read the books to figure out what the Arkentools do? Erfworlders have attuned before, so someone used at least one of them in the past to do something. The answer, to me, is that the Arkentools are not limited to a set of powers, and will respond to the will of whoever Attunes to them. Was Ansom able to dust Uncroaked because the Arkenpliers had already begun adapting to Wanda?

Book2, Text 44 wrote:He really should teach himself to use the thing better. Wanda said she thought it was a whole mess of different magicks, what'd she say...Shockmancy, obviously. Rhyme-o-mancy because it rocked out. Carnymancy because it made big flashes and sometimes could make things disappear (he never could do it on purpose, though). And what else? Changemancy? He looked at the hammer closely. There might be a lot more he could do with it besides taming dwagons, which was...Date-o-mancy, he guessed?


Nothing here says that he had never actively tried to figure out what the Hammer could do. He just thinks they could do more and work better, such as the inconsistency in the bird-walnut conversion and invisibility..

But you know... one thing about the Arkenpliers... Wanda has not learned any other power than Decryption. Not one. She has had over 100 Turns, and has not been described as even trying.

When we first meet Stanley, he's breaking walnuts with the 'Hammer. The fact that some of the nuts transformed was a lucky accident - he just wanted to crack some nuts. Stanley is a great combat unit - there's no question about that. But I still don't see any actual evidence of any above-average cognitive ability or skills.


You're talking about critical thinking here. Being able to construct a plan to experiment with a device and learn its properties is something Stanley wouldn't do well.

But while you mock his propensity to use the 'Hammer for trivial purposes, this is also evidence that Stanley lacks prejudice. Wanda wouldn't hit a walnut with the Arkenhammer and never learn that ability. Stanley will learn more because he treats it as a Tool, not an artifact.

Oberon wrote:It's not smarts, it's dumb luck and a lack of reverence. Remember Wanda's reaction? Something like "That's a holy relic!"


"But it's divine."

And Stanley said something like "Sometimes you need to tame a dwagon, and sometimes you just need to bust a nut" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Say no more!)


That's accurate.

[q/uote]His discovery was dumb luck, but then so was the discovery of nitroglycerine.[/quote]

And the first artificial dye. And the propeller. And the Newcomen steam engine. And nuclear decay. And that crude oil separates into layers if heated. There's no shortage of accidental inventions. And no shortage of intentional ones. Barbed wire. The internal combustion engine. The airplane. The telephone. The phonograph. TNT. Guncotton. The incandescent light bulb.

But discovering one thing by accident does not infer that all the powers pf the Arkenhammer were discovered by accident. Nor does someone devising and testing a series of tests infer that no powers will be discovered later by accident.

I think that this is still all in line with what you've been proposing (as I read it, anyway): Stanley got where he did through luck.


Or, as I said, the Hammer responds to Stanley's desires. It is a Tool thought to have created Erfworld. The Titans didn't create Erfworld by turning walnuts into pigeons. In their hands it responds to their will.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Oberon » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:02 am

Excellent! An opportunity to disagree with everyone all at once. :P

BLANDCorporatio wrote:(Imo, it's more plausible to be among the 3-in-1000 lucky than it is to have arrows blocked by chance 3 times).
You missed the part where these are the same event. You are amongst the 3-in-1000 lucky because an arrow was blocked by a chance event 3 times for you and your two fellow survivors.
Lamech wrote:Anyway lets compare Stanley to the other overlords:
Yes, lets!
Lamech wrote:Queen Beau: When her side is in trouble she wastes all money, and suicides. Stanley: When his side is in trouble he uses his money on something useful and activates his back up plan.
Queen Bea: When her side is up against impossible odds, and when her inevitable loss was going to feed the enemy war machine, she enacted a scorched earth policy and denied her enemy any "provisions". Stanley: When his side is in trouble he is convinced against his "best" judgement to spend his money on something useful. Then he utterly fails to realize the true value of that useful thing, being so much an ignoramus that he cannot see what his three non-linked casters see regarding that useful thing (although like Peter, they doubted the useful thing three times [once each] before the cock crowed). Having so failed, he flees to his bolt-hole. Being blocked along the route to his bolt-hole, he decides to return home. Luckily for Stanley, the useful thing was actually useful, and he returns to a home much stronger than it was when he left. A result which could only have occurred had he left, and not overruled the useful thing on every decision.
Lamech wrote:Slately: Instead of fleeing the city so his son had a chance to fight back stays in the tower that was about to fall. Stanley: Actually understands how to flee when in danger.
I think I've covered Stanley's supposed "brilliance in fleeing pretty well already, so I'll rest my case with the above.
Lamech wrote:Don: Attempts to waste money by sending it to a doomed side. Stanley: Saves money by looking for waste.
Do you mean the "waste" of paying for the support contract? Sarcasm says that it is oh, so intelligent to be willing to spend 350,000 shmuckers on something, but also be willing against the best advice of your caster commander to fail to pay for the casting contract.
Lamech wrote:Jillian: Attacked GK's cities so the GK airforce would be guaranteed to try and end her side next turn. Stanley: Hasn't done anything quite that retarded.
He has, and it is documented within the story. Stanley provoked Jetstone (Vinnie thought it was a minor provocation, but then it was Jetstone units which were killed and not TV units, so yeah) to the point where Jetstone formed the RCC to go crush Stanley. Brilliant!
Lamech wrote:Don: Trying to get top warlord killed. Stanley: Parson still alive and well.
Here I'll grant Stanley some leeway. Despite needing to be "bought off" by Wanda's sexual favors, which prevented Stanley from sending Parson into combat to be killed. And despite Stanley telling Parson, Wanda, and Sizemore to get out of his sight on pain of disbandment, Stanley has never disbanded a unit. Oh, wait. Neither has any other Erfworld ruler we've seen. Ever. So maybe Stanley shouldn't get such mad props for his lack of running around disbanding or sending into combat to die his best resources, despite his stated inclinations for such actions. He did well enough on that front when he managed to lose 12 cities and all his Warlords before the story even began.
Lamech wrote:So it appears to me that Stanley is the competent overlord of the story.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!Eleven!!!1!!!!!1!!!!!!!
Kreistor wrote:I think his escape from Jillian was quite brilliant, actually. It demonstrated he is not as limited to the brute force tactics you want to limit him to, by demonstrating he can conceive of complex deceptions and does not suffer target fixation. It demonstrates that his pride is not more important to him than his survival.
Is this really how you read the events leading up to, during, and following, Stanley's flight towards FAQ?
If so, your perception of what happened is radically divergent from my own.

Here's what happened, and I'll borrow from the preceeding:
Stanley: When his side is in trouble he is convinced against his "best" judgement to spend his money on something useful. Then he utterly fails to realize the true value of that useful thing, being so much an ignoramus that he cannot see what his three non-linked casters see regarding that useful thing (although like Peter, they doubted the useful thing three times [once each] before the cock crowed). Having so failed, he flees to his bolt-hole. Being blocked along the route to his bolt-hole, he decides to return home. Luckily for Stanley, the useful thing was actually useful, and he returns to a home much stronger than it was when he left. A result which could only have occurred had he left, and not overruled the useful thing on every decision.

You say that Stanley's "escape from Jillian was quite brilliant, actually." Wow. Just, wow. Let's examine this proposition. The setting:
Stanley is fleeing towards FAQ with the intent to establish another side after GK falls, thus saving his skin. Even though she has been in his dungeons three times, Stanley is unaware that the heir to FAQ is still alive and hates him with a passion. This heir arranges for TV forces to ambush Stanley.
On Stanley's side, Jack was dysfunctional, and could not cast an effective veil. He made highly visible dwagons look like highly visible parade floats, for example.
The readers are presented with some foreshadowing about the state Jack is in, including the potential cure, which is as simple as speaking the name of one of the most useful guys working for you. Stanley has maybe 10 names he should know: 5 casters, his CWL, and perhaps 4 warlords. And yet he doesn't know Jack's name, or Sizemore's for that matter.
During the battle, when Stanley is about to get creamed, Jillian speaks Jack's name. As foreshadowed, this does indeed snap him out of his insanity, and Jack's quick thinking and initiative save the day for Stanley.

All the above was presented quite clearly, to me. And yet you still managed to see it so differently than I that your take-away was that Stanley was: "quite brilliant, actually. It demonstrated he is not as limited to the brute force tactics you want to limit him to, by demonstrating he can conceive of complex deceptions and does not suffer target fixation. It demonstrates that his pride is not more important to him than his survival." Really? He survived because Jillian spoke Jack's name. He then survived because Jack is the bast at doing what Jack does. And then he survived because Jack convinced him to turn back to GK instead of pressing on towards FAQ.
What part of the above was "quite brilliant" on the part of Stanley?
Kreistor wrote:But this would be Human Resource Management, and an example of something I already admit he is poor at. Knowing who to promote requires strategic thinking.
OK, so you admit he is bad at Human Resource Management. That's a start. But you misunderstand what Human Resource Management is about, so you represent it poorly. Human Resource Management isn't only about "knowing who to promote", or about "strategic thinking." It's about knowing who within your cadre of advisers you should listen to, and when. Who, amongst your management staff, has good strategic sense? And who has Human Resource Management skills? A real leader uses their staff to make up for their own shortcomings. Stanley is quite clearly an utter failure at letting his underlings provide to him their strengths where he is weak, because he is too stupid to understand where he himself is weak and desperately needs assistance.

When your advisers tell you that they aren't going to just repeat for the Xth time the same failed strategy of "promote the most dashing and handsome to CWL", a leader with Human Resource Management skills doesn't start an argument about refusing an order. When your CWL has just wiped out 40% of the enemy siege that is coming to kill you, but then gets a pile of dwagons killed through mischance, a leader with good Human Resource Management skills doesn't decide that they have all failed you and flee. And most importantly, a leader with decent Human Resource Management skills doesn't fail to see the value in the Perfect Warlord they have just paid 350,000 shmuckers for, and question and second-quess his every order to the point of distraction. A leader with less that idiotic Human Resource Management skills doesn't replace the CWL who just beat 25:1 odds so that you still are an Overlord with the CWL or the coalition sent to kill him that his own CWL just killed and defeated. Oh, and: "Remember, it's Ansom's plan, don't be trying to take any of the credit!"
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Lamech » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:30 am

Oberon wrote:Queen Bea: When her side is up against impossible odds, and when her inevitable loss was going to feed the enemy war machine, she enacted a scorched earth policy and denied her enemy any "provisions". Stanley: When his side is in trouble he is convinced against his "best" judgement to spend his money on something useful. Then he utterly fails to realize the true value of that useful thing, being so much an ignoramus that he cannot see what his three non-linked casters see regarding that useful thing (although like Peter, they doubted the useful thing three times [once each] before the cock crowed). Having so failed, he flees to his bolt-hole. Being blocked along the route to his bolt-hole, he decides to return home. Luckily for Stanley, the useful thing was actually useful, and he returns to a home much stronger than it was when he left. A result which could only have occurred had he left, and not overruled the useful thing on every decision.
Queen Beau fails compared to Stanley for two reasons. One: She wasted her cash. If she was so concerned about her allies she could have sent it to them. But she did not. And now both Jetstone and TV are short on cash. Stanley used his money. Two: She had no escape plan. Stanley's escape plan was still significantly better than the non-existent plans of Beau and Slately.
Oberon wrote:Do you mean the "waste" of paying for the support contract? Sarcasm says that it is oh, so intelligent to be willing to spend 350,000 shmuckers on something, but also be willing against the best advice of your caster commander to fail to pay for the casting contract.
Worked wonderfully sans support plan, IMO. Kind of got GK an arkentool attuned. Defeated the coalition. Undid king world. Maybe the product would have looked more finished, but you can't do much better than crushing victory after crushing victory.
Oberon wrote:He has, and it is documented within the story. Stanley provoked Jetstone (Vinnie thought it was a minor provocation, but then it was Jetstone units which were killed and not TV units, so yeah) to the point where Jetstone formed the RCC to go crush Stanley. Brilliant!
And Stanley being within one turn of Jetstone's forces when he did this was immediately killed? Jillian is ticking off GK, when she is also a nice ripe target to croak and finish. Presumably (seeing as how Stanley didn't get attacked and croaked), he either wasn't so vulnerable or didn't anger them as much. And of course, bumping off a few field units is a much smaller provocation then destroying cities.
Oberon wrote:Here I'll grant Stanley some leeway. Despite needing to be "bought off" by Wanda's sexual favors, which prevented Stanley from sending Parson into combat to be killed. And despite Stanley telling Parson, Wanda, and Sizemore to get out of his sight on pain of disbandment, Stanley has never disbanded a unit. Oh, wait. Neither has any other Erfworld ruler we've seen. Ever. So maybe Stanley shouldn't get such mad props for his lack of running around disbanding or sending into combat to die his best resources, despite his stated inclinations for such actions. He did well enough on that front when he managed to lose 12 cities and all his Warlords before the story even began.
First when he was about to send Parson into direct combat Parson had demonstrated nothing but utter incompetence and a lack of knowledge about anything. Two, sending a unit into combat =! trying to get said unit killed. So its almost like "trying to kill your top warlord", if we just change "trying to kill" and "top warlord".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Kreistor » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:54 am

Oberon wrote:Do you mean the "waste" of paying for the support contract? Sarcasm says that it is oh, so intelligent to be willing to spend 350,000 shmuckers on something, but also be willing against the best advice of your caster commander to fail to pay for the casting contract.


You know, despite Wanda's misgivings, I actually think it was better for her to cast it. One thing a Lookamancer with no knowledge of Stanley could not do was ensure the Warlord she selected was of a compatible personality with Stanley. Imagine Patton or MacArthur trying to work for Stanley. Wanda was able to choose someone of the right type of talent, but without the strong ego of a great commander.

me wrote:I think his escape from Jillian was quite brilliant, actually. It demonstrated he is not as limited to the brute force tactics you want to limit him to, by demonstrating he can conceive of complex deceptions and does not suffer target fixation. It demonstrates that his pride is not more important to him than his survival.


Oberon wrote:Is this really how you read the events leading up to, during, and following, Stanley's flight towards FAQ? If so, your perception of what happened is radically divergent from my own.


No, just his reaction to facing an ambush. I never said anything about the strategic decision to move his Capital to FAQ.

Was it smart of Stanley to flee GK?

Note that Stanley was already looking at this option in Comic 3. Stanley is facing aastronomical odds against his Sde's survival. 25:1 is not winnable, unless there is a flaw in the attackers that can be exploited. (Ie. Not enough gas for the tanks, so you win if you can fight a highly mobile battle forcing lots of fuel expenditure.) There was no sign of such a weakness.

So Parson was a long shot. Stanley blew schmuckers he couldn't keep. And Parson? He failed, repeatedly. Stanley loves his dwagons, but Parson put them at risk. Parson's move was excellent... except that he cost the dwagons too much Move and left them vulnerable, if well hidden, by being overly ambitious. His obvious trap for Ansom also failed. Parson demonstrated ignorance of the Rules over and over. Parson nearly destroyed the Lookamancer table by breaking Misty.

In short, his longshot showed no signs of the genius Stanley paid for with success on the Battlefield. He smashed some siege, but paid the cost in dwagons. Parson showed flashes of insight, but Stanley needed success immediately because there was no time to teach someone that somehow did not know what every Erfworlder Warlord knew at pop.

You say that Stanley's "escape from Jillian was quite brilliant, actually." Wow. Just, wow. Let's examine this proposition. The setting:
Stanley is fleeing towards FAQ with the intent to establish another side after GK falls, thus saving his skin. Even though she has been in his dungeons three times, Stanley is unaware that the heir to FAQ is still alive and hates him with a passion. This heir arranges for TV forces to ambush Stanley.


Correction: Wanda has failed to inform Stanley that the Warlord she has captured loathes him, because Wanda loves said Warlord and doesn't want Stanley to order her killed immiediately upon learning that she is a threat. That ignorance is one of Wanda's many manipulations, and not something you can blame Stanley for. Stanley expects Wanda's Duty would ensure such information would be made available to him. But those that pay attention know Wanda is not so Duty-bound as others. Wanda turned the moment Stanley hit FAQ, and killed and uncroaked her own former Ruler. If she can rationalize that, she can rationalize a lot of things others could not. [From Stanley's description of events told to Zhopa.]

Further, Stanley couldn't have known there was an heir to FAQ unless he encountered FAQ units outside the city FAQ that should have disbanded when their heir-less Ruler died. The units inside the City would remain alive, trapped there, so the fighting wouldn't stop. With no mention of such an event, and with FAQ sending it's merc units far from the local region, Stanley simply could not know that an Heir to FAQ even existed.

OK, so you admit he is bad at Human Resource Management. That's a start.


What are you talking about? It simply has never been discussed. He forgets names, promotes idiots, and thinks of people only in terms of their function. Why did you think that I thought he was a good people person? I have only suggested that he is a good tactician, not a smart guy in general.

But you misunderstand what Human Resource Management is about, so you represent it poorly.


When did I misrepresent it? I wasn't talking about it, except in how it relates to Tactical thinking. Understanding a unit's function is required of a tactician. Knowing his name is not. Knowing his skill set is necessary. But when you can issue orders with a thought, and without a name, you don't need names. When you're just a Warlord, evne a Chief Warlord, you don't pick who gets promoted, who gets popped, etc.

Stanley is quite clearly an utter failure at letting his underlings provide to him their strengths where he is weak, because he is too stupid to understand where he himself is weak and desperately needs assistance.


Didn't he have that in Wanda? Look at Wanda at Exposition Bridge. Parson didn't suggest she capture Ossomer: Parson suggested scouting. Wanda saw the strategic advantage of having direct knowledge of the enemy's plans from their own Chief Warlord. You say Stanley didn't let someone advise him on Strategy, but clearly Wanda did in Book 1, and Wanda is an effective strategist. Why should he seek assistance where he is already getting it?

And most importantly, a leader with decent Human Resource Management skills doesn't fail to see the value in the Perfect Warlord they have just paid 350,000 shmuckers for, and question and second-quess his every order to the point of distraction.


Why on Erf are you droning on and on after I clearly stated he was bad at human resource management? Are you trying to re-prove something I believed when I started reading back when the comic first appeared on GitP? And you never flipped this back at my own point, did you? You just drone on, as if I don't understand HR. Sorry, man, you're presmuming that because I didn't go into some long rant about HR that somehow I'm ignorant of some aspect of it... but I'm only focusing on the elements that are relevant to my point. There's a difference.

So, since you seem to lack any point in lecturing me... why are you lecturing me?
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http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby raphfrk » Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:59 am

MarbitChow wrote:If we picked Stanley out of the 1,000 pikers in my example, prior to his first combat, and bet on his survival, you'd be right - we would have been absurdly lucky to have guessed that he would do well. But that's not what I'm trying to demonstrate.


Assuming there are, 1000 newly popped pikers, 900 with a 25% fatality rate, and 100 skilled ones with a 15% fatality rate.

After 20 battles, the totals will be

Lucky: 3
Skilled: 4

Half of the survivors were skilled, but only 10% of the original group were skilled. If you want a skilled piker to be warlord, pick one who survived 20 battles and you have a 50% chance, but pick a newly popped one and you have a 10% chance.

The fact that Stanley survived isn't proof of skill, but it is evidence that he was skilled.

Also, if the person doing the choosing is capable of seeing the difference between luck and skill, that pushes up the chances of that person picking a skilled piker.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:37 am

raphfrk wrote:Assuming there are, 1000 newly popped pikers, 900 with a 25% fatality rate, and 100 skilled ones with a 15% fatality rate.

(MarbitChow glances back down the road, mutters something about combat skill being different than tactical skill, and continues to hitchhike.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:40 am

Oberon wrote:Excellent! An opportunity to disagree with everyone all at once. :P

BLANDCorporatio wrote:(Imo, it's more plausible to be among the 3-in-1000 lucky than it is to have arrows blocked by chance 3 times).
You missed the part where these are the same event. You are amongst the 3-in-1000 lucky because an arrow was blocked by a chance event 3 times for you and your two fellow survivors.


:lol: Nicely made.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Dark Matter » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:23 am

Just to interject...

The Concept of scientific research hasn't been developed yet. Parson's research on falling objects is an example, there are others. Everyone knows what everyone knows (i.e. that it's the Will of the Titans), and they don't question it. We spent centuries doing the same thing ourselves.

Similarly, The Concept of Management hasn't been developed yet either. The nobility make the choices they make and they ultimately rule through divine right. The metric to judge Stanley by isn't by our standards, it's by the other rulers in the comic.

Ultimately Queen Bee killed herself, and her entire faction, because she didn't want to be ruled by Stanley (a non-noble). She never tried to see if there were any other options available, even though her daughter was there saying that there were.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Kreistor » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:13 pm

Dark Matter wrote:The Concept of scientific research hasn't been developed yet. Parson's research on falling objects is an example, there are others. Everyone knows what everyone knows (i.e. that it's the Will of the Titans), and they don't question it. We spent centuries doing the same thing ourselves.


Not entirely true. Isaac Newton in the MK runs experiments with his various pieces of equipment. Others discuss the nature of magic philosophically. The downfall is that magic requires a mental state, as Sizemore suggests with his own development of how to model dirt gaining him advancement towards Master class rating. Experimentation only works in a universe where experiments are repeatable by everyone. In a world where two people doing the same thing has different results, experimentation is an incredibly personal affair.

Similarly, The Concept of Management hasn't been developed yet either.


Management is merely the delegation of responsibility. That clearly exists in Erfworld with its rigid hierarchical structure.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby sleepymancer » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:22 pm

Kreistor wrote:You know, despite Wanda's misgivings, I actually think it was better for her to cast it. One thing a Lookamancer with no knowledge of Stanley could not do was ensure the Warlord she selected was of a compatible personality with Stanley. Imagine Patton or MacArthur trying to work for Stanley. Wanda was able to choose someone of the right type of talent, but without the strong ego of a great commander. (My emphasis)


You know, I've been thinking about this (the bit I've emphasised with bold and italics) a bit for the last few days. Did Wanda select Parson or did she just think she did. What I mean is that, if you assume that each page of the summoning is in strict sequential order, then Parson and team meet up, the big idea is postulated and with a finger click Parson vanishes in a bang of plot (dude nabs the dice). Cut to Wanda and she says words to the effect of the spell is cast, I just need to speak the trigger and finalise. it. Cue some babbling and drama, 'find' him and Plotz. there he is.

Now I am more than willing to accept that that was simply narrative license and that Parson vanished and reappeared when the trigger word was spoken, and that cutting back to a time moments earlier was simply to clarify the events. But, is it at all possible that the findamancers making the spell had already tied Parson directly to it. When Wanda cast it he entered into the void, and then reappeared when she 'found him. Perhaps the spell even gave a few facets of Parson and his cognitive for Wanda to choose between (it would explain the headache he arrived with!) but in an 'all roads lead to Rome kind of way, so that when she had chosen she got tactical potato. A more experienced lookamancer might have noticed they were watching video, but with a predictamancer knowing the right amount to charge for support plan to ensure it wouldn't be paid for, who personally knew Wanda's capabilities and that GK had no available lookamancer (Misty being bound up at the time) or findamancer.

That would side-step the issue of luck/personal knowledge being involved in finding a person that could work with Stanley's 'certain cognitive limitations'.

Well, I realise that this speculation is almost two books to late, but hey! Also, I assume I am not the first to think of this, but previous forum threads from back in the day have gone through it. So, apologies for plagiarising whoever may have thought of it first; remember, imitation is the greatest form of flattery and that great minds think alike.

All best,
Thom
I tend to witter on, produce copious typos and run off on nonsensical tangents. If I've done this here, please forgive me :D
I also get a bit obstinate and argumentative. If I'm not budging or understanding your counterargument call me on my manners
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Kreistor » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:57 pm

sleepymancer wrote:You know, I've been thinking about this (the bit I've emphasised with bold and italics) a bit for the last few days. Did Wanda select Parson or did she just think she did. What I mean is that, if you assume that each page of the summoning is in strict sequential order, then Parson and team meet up, the big idea is postulated and with a finger click Parson vanishes in a bang of plot (dude nabs the dice). Cut to Wanda and she says words to the effect of the spell is cast, I just need to speak the trigger and finalise. it. Cue some babbling and drama, 'find' him and Plotz. there he is.


What you're talking about is Intelligent Design, which in this case means the Titans forced her to select Parson.

I've been thinking about starting a major discussion on the fundamental problem Parson is present to repair for some time. I think I'll do that now, and break it into Everything Else Erfworld. It's just too big for this thread. This will take some time. It's a big discussion.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby fjolnir » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:49 pm

sounds like fun.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Oberon » Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:24 pm

Lamech wrote:Queen Beau fails compared to Stanley for two reasons. One: She wasted her cash. If she was so concerned about her allies she could have sent it to them. But she did not.
Bea had a goal, and used her resources in the best way she could to accomplish that goal. Her goal was to provide the GK juggernaut with as little fodder for their war machine as was possible. She arrived at this goal after witnessing the power of the arkenpliers and decryption, and she very intelligently arrived at the correct conclusion: If you cannot beat GK, you will be forced to join them.

As to helping out Jetstone and/or TV with funds, that potential option did not fit in with the efficient accomplishment of her goal. She used her treasury to promote garrison units and sent them outside the city so that they would disband and not freeze when the city fell (when Bea died). There is also no evidence to suggest that she could have done this even had she had spare funds to spend after ensuring that even her garrison units would not be decrypted and wearing GK livery. I don't recall her having a hat, and she had no moneymancer to make her gems. And I don't recall any other method of loaning shmuckers has been described.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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