Book 2 – Page 69

[Lamech]

As to helping out Jetstone and/or TV with funds, that potential option did not fit in with the efficient accomplishment of her goal. She used her treasury to promote garrison units and sent them outside the city so that they would disband and not freeze when the city fell (when Bea died). There is also no evidence to suggest that she could have done this even had she had spare funds to spend after ensuring that even her garrison units would not be decrypted and wearing GK livery. I don't recall her having a hat, and she had no moneymancer to make her gems. And I don't recall any other method of loaning shmuckers has been described.

She could have simply disbanded the units via thinking about it. As Stanley has threatened to do many times. Furthermore she presumably had archers which can fire over hexes off turn. BTW, she had a hat. And gems. Furthermore we commonly see payments to other sides with out any sort of gem movement. Now its possible that this could not be done in this case, but the gems could have been sent to TV.

Bea had a goal, and used her resources in the best way she could to accomplish that goal. Her goal was to provide the GK juggernaut with as little fodder for their war machine as was possible. She arrived at this goal after witnessing the power of the arkenpliers and decryption, and she very intelligently arrived at the correct conclusion: If you cannot beat GK, you will be forced to join them.

If she had an escape plan she could have used that to preserve as much as possible for a counter-strike against GK*. She did not. Stanley did better than her in this regard. She should have had a better option. She did not. It does not matter that she did the best she could (and she didn't even manage that); she should have been prepared to flee to safety. She fails compared to Stanley because suicide was her best option.
*Yes she can assume that a counter-strike was happening. If there was never going to be a counter-strike then all is vain, hence assuming wrongly causes no loss.

[oslecamo2_temp]

Not to mention, if you're forcing your side to commit suicide, you're simply not caring about it at all.

Bea fails by only realizing that she can't defeat GK head on when they're knocking on her doorstep. She fails at both scouting and troop positioning and her chief warlord that kept insisting she had to get to a safe place. Bea had no backup plan whatsoever.

She could've also, you know, acepted GK's alliance offering. Swallow her own pride for her people. But what's some thousands lifes compared to Bea geting to remain a "true royal" to the end?

In few words, Bea's crappy leadership led her side's utter destruction. For unaroyal citizens, it matters not that some other royal side may keep fighting, because Bea made sure they're all dead.

So, would you rather fight for the dude with the hammer that lets you to stand on your own feet and prove your worth, or the queen that orders you all to take cyanid pills?

[Oberon]

She could have simply disbanded the units via thinking about it. As Stanley has threatened to do many times. Furthermore she presumably had archers which can fire over hexes off turn. BTW, she had a hat. And gems. Furthermore we commonly see payments to other sides with out any sort of gem movement. Now its possible that this could not be done in this case, but the gems could have been sent to TV.

I'm not sure what the mention of archers is supposed to bring to the discussion. Good catch on the hat and gems, but the update where the gems are mentioned says she used them promoting units, so they were not available to send to Jetstone or TV.
Could she have simply disbanded all of the garrison to save the expense? Perhaps. I'm not really sure. The rules are rather vague, even though they seem to be clear. No leader has disbanded a unit in the entire comic run, although many have spoken of it. Bea claims she almost disbanded a unit just for bringing her news she didn't want to hear. Stanley threatened to disband Wanda, Parson, or Sizemore if he saw them again before Stanley fled GK. The whole TV Don/Caesar/Ben circle, but no one has been disbanded. And there seems to be a royal sense of honor involved with Bea. She's willing to promote and send out of the city units to just depop, but perhaps not simply disband them and save gems to send to some other side. No matter how friendly the leaders may be, there must always remain some amount of tension between sides. The mechanics of Erfworld ensure it.

She fails compared to Stanley because suicide was her best option.

She was in an unwinnable situation and chose mass suicide as the way to avoid a horrible fate. You can claim that her decisions up to this point indicated a failure of leadership, that she should have maintained a stronger side, perhaps not participated in the RCC expedition, whatever. That is true, as the leader she is responsible for her kingdom, but it's not relevant to her decision to mass suicide.

Bea had a high degree of revulsion concerning the "uncroaked called decrypted", which seems to be shared by most royal sides. Dying and a mass suicide rather than allowing your subjects to be perverted into a horrible unholy state is tough but understandable call. It is a leadership call. Looking at it from the outside, as someone who is merely reading the story, it is too easy to say that alliance with the unholy is a perfectly valid option. But you're not putting yourself in Bea's shoes and trying to understand her from her point of view. You haven't been given a report that your dead daughter is uncroaked and working for the enemy. You haven't seen your dead daughter, spoken with her. And witnessed the horrifying likeness of the thing in front of you to your dead daughter along with the radical change in values even though the memories and experiences remain the same.

Stanley fled due to a failure of his leadership. He suffered one reverse and decided that his leadership cadre had either betrayed him or failed him utterly, and that it was time to run.*

So, would you rather fight for the dude with the hammer that lets you to stand on your own feet and prove your worth, or the queen that orders you all to take cyanid pills?

I answered all of your other points in the response above. So I'll just take this final question here.
You're asking the wrong question. Taken out of context, you've set up a straw poll which if answered in the natural way will give you the result you want to arrive at.You should instead ask:
"Would you rather: Fight for the side with the arkenpliers attuned to a croakamancer (the "witch" who creates uncroaked "abominations") who will raise your fallen countrymen and convert and pervert them into horrifying and twisted versions of themselves who have all the memories and experiences of their former lives, but have their values and beliefs utterly perverted into the worship of that croakamancer. Or would you rather die, and thereby preserve your religious beliefs, your values, your morals, and prevent the perversion of your corpses by the enemy?"

Once the correct question is asked, the one which truly represents the choice Bea felt she was facing, her decision becomes more easily understood.

*There is also the fact that the story required him to leave GK. Parson would never have been free to pull out the string of desperate last stands, and thereby both demonstrate his competence as a leader, and also suffer the consequences that all wartime leader suffer of knowing that your decisions and your plans are sending people to die regardless of whether you win, lose, or draw. This would never have happened unless Stanley was gone or otherwise (Maggie's suggestion spell) unable to second guess and therefore ruin Parson's plans. But I'll keep the meta out of the discussion going forward.

[Lamech]

She was in an unwinnable situation and chose mass suicide as the way to avoid a horrible fate. You can claim that her decisions up to this point indicated a failure of leadership, that she should have maintained a stronger side, perhaps not participated in the RCC expedition, whatever. That is true, as the leader she is responsible for her kingdom, but it's not relevant to her decision to mass suicide.

Yes see the difference between what Beau and Stanley did? Stanley got himself a back up plan. Beau did not. Because of that Stanley was able to escape the GK to safety. Beau did not.

Stanley fled due to a failure of his leadership. He suffered one reverse and decided that his leadership cadre had either betrayed him or failed him utterly, and that it was time to run.*

Look to me like he correctly concluded that if he stayed in the city he would croak. Parson's tri-mancy link would not have saved him.

[Kreistor]

So, would you rather fight for the dude with the hammer that lets you to stand on your own feet and prove your worth, or the queen that orders you all to take cyanid pills?

I answered all of your other points in the response above. So I'll just take this final question here.
You're asking the wrong question. Taken out of context, you've set up a straw poll which if answered in the natural way will give you the result you want to arrive at.You should instead ask:
"Would you rather: Fight for the side with the arkenpliers attuned to a croakamancer (the "witch" who creates uncroaked "abominations") who will raise your fallen countrymen and convert and pervert them into horrifying and twisted versions of themselves who have all the memories and experiences of their former lives, but have their values and beliefs utterly perverted into the worship of that croakamancer. Or would you rather die, and thereby preserve your religious beliefs, your values, your morals, and prevent the perversion of your corpses by the enemy?"

You created the same straw poll with the opposite spin. You've corrupted the question with personal revulsion of what one side is doing in order to ensure it is not perceived as a moral answer.

[sleepymancer]

You know, I've been thinking about this (the bit I've emphasised with bold and italics) a bit for the last few days. Did Wanda select Parson or did she just think she did. What I mean is that, if you assume that each page of the summoning is in strict sequential order, then Parson and team meet up, the big idea is postulated and with a finger click Parson vanishes in a bang of plot (dude nabs the dice). Cut to Wanda and she says words to the effect of the spell is cast, I just need to speak the trigger and finalise. it. Cue some babbling and drama, 'find' him and Plotz. there he is.

What you're talking about is Intelligent Design, which in this case means the Titans forced her to select Parson.

Possibly. Although I meant to suggest that it was the design of Janice et alia embedded into the spell, rather than the Titans directly crafting the options. Whether the Titans guided their hands and minds is another issue!

[Kreistor]

What you're talking about is Intelligent Design, which in this case means the Titans forced her to select Parson.

Possibly. Although I meant to suggest that it was the design of Janice et alia embedded into the spell, rather than the Titans directly crafting the options. Whether the Titans guided their hands and minds is another issue!

That implies that a second spell was cast earlier to identify Parson as the desirable candidate. Since Janice and Maggie do not mention such a casting, I'll have to say it's entirely unnecessary. Marie has Predicted that the result will be what they need, and so there's no reason to go to that kind of effort. When you know the outcome, you don't need to manipulate the outcome.

[Dark Matter]

She was in an unwinnable situation and chose mass suicide as the way to avoid a horrible fate. You can claim that her decisions up to this point indicated a failure of leadership, that she should have maintained a stronger side, perhaps not participated in the RCC expedition, whatever. That is true, as the leader she is responsible for her kingdom, but it's not relevant to her decision to mass suicide.

But what is the "horrible fate" she was avoiding?

Bea had a high degree of revulsion concerning the "uncroaked called decrypted", which seems to be shared by most royal sides.

The war and absolute revulsion against Stanley long predate decryption, which Bea didn't even know about until right before she killed herself. The entire "unthinkable horror" is NOT corpse animation, it's the "new titanic mandate". That's why Bea was so horrified that her daughter switched sides that she was tempted to simply kill any messengers who told her that her daughter wanted to talk with her.

The attunement of two Arkentools to the same side may mean many things. But Gobwin Knob has taken it to mean that the Titans of Ark have revoked the mandate bestowed upon Royal lines to rule. Ansom affirmed this point, when I queried. The Decrypted act as if they have a new Titanic mandate....

They are pursuing the express aim of bringing all sides into a new alliance, in line with this new view of the world. They ask for the allegiance of all. Failing that, they intend to croak and decrypt every unit in Erfworld. Whatever this mockery of my daughter was, she then asked me to surrender Unaroyal and ally with Stanley.

So Bea had three choices. Death. Undeath. Or allying with Stanley. The first was the least horrifying to Bea... for her followers I doubt they'd much care who was ordering them to their deaths.

[Kreistor]

The entire "unthinkable horror" is NOT corpse animation, it's the "new titanic mandate". That's why Bea was so horrified that her daughter switched sides that she was tempted to simply kill any messengers who told her that her daughter wanted to talk with her.

I have to disagree.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F122.jpg

"Two thousand eight hundred and seventy... of Jetstone finest fighters... are become abominations by your hand."

Sorry, but some do have strong feelings against Croakamancy in Erfworld. Bea's revulsion was from the perversion of her daughter's will to another's purpose so utterly, and without defense. No one can resist the spell, since they are dead. And this was a brand new fate to BEa... no one had ever seen a speaking uncroaked before.

WE are disgusted by the idea of rotting, but for Erfworlders, this does not happen. They normally disappear instead of rot. For a people for which the rotting zombies are not paralleled by rotting in the grave, the revulsion of Croakamancy may be even more severe than for us.

[Dark Matter]

Sorry, but some do have strong feelings against Croakamancy in Erfworld. Bea's revulsion was from the perversion of her daughter's will to another's purpose so utterly, and without defense. No one can resist the spell, since they are dead. And this was a brand new fate to BEa... no one had ever seen a speaking uncroaked before.

Not a generic "another's", the big deal was that it was Stanley's. Most of Bea's revulsion of her daughter predates her knowledge that she was decrypted. All of Ansom's revulsion from the first book predates Wanda's new abilities. Bea chose to die rather than yield/ally to Stanley. Since she wasn't strong enough to stop him, she was ALWAYS going to do that. The whole undead thing meant that rather than let him have her corpse to animate she choose to kill herself.

The whole Royal vs. Non-Royal thing is a HUGE deal here. Anson bought into the whole Will of the Royals thing, Stately does too, so did Bea. Think about how the old-Ansom reacted to "Titans of Ark have revoked the mandate bestowed upon Royal lines to rule". If Wanda had been working for Jetstone; and Stately/Ansom was offering Bea the whole "ally or die" thing, are we supposed to think that she'd have died rather than yield to another Royal?

[Kreistor]

The whole Royal vs. Non-Royal thing is a HUGE deal here. Anson bought into the whole Will of the Royals thing, Stately does too, so did Bea. Think about how the old-Ansom reacted to "Titans of Ark have revoked the mandate bestowed upon Royal lines to rule". If Wanda had been working for Jetstone; and Stately/Ansom was offering Bea the whole "ally or die" thing, are we supposed to think that she'd have died rather than yield to another Royal?

No, Royalty was a huge deal to Ansom. It's not to Ossomer: his hang up is honor. And it's not to Trammenis: his hang up is... welll, we'll have to figure that out yet, but comedy seems a good choice.

Don King wasn't, but now is more convinced that he was wrong, so Erfworlders are showing that they can change. Personalities and ideas are fluid, as they are on Earth. It is simply not possible to generalize any attitude on this level of conviction. There is plenty of counter-evidence that defeats the generalization.

Attitudes towards Royalty are personal, and not consistent with Rank or type.

[Oberon]

Look to me like he [Stanley] correctly concluded that if he stayed in the city he would croak. Parson's tri-mancy link would not have saved him.

Ah, and now you're crediting Stanley with the wit necessary to determine that Parson would order a trimancer link and uncroak the volcano. Nice! Stan Lee Coyote, super genius.

You created the same straw poll with the opposite spin. You've corrupted the question with personal revulsion of what one side is doing in order to ensure it is not perceived as a moral answer.

The key difference being that my poll uses actual story elements and actual character point of view to pose the question. Thus, not a corrupted question and not a straw poll at all.

The war and absolute revulsion against Stanley long predate decryption, which Bea didn't even know about until right before she killed herself. The entire "unthinkable horror" is NOT corpse animation, it's the "new titanic mandate". That's why Bea was so horrified that her daughter switched sides that she was tempted to simply kill any messengers who told her that her daughter wanted to talk with her.

You and I did not read the same comic... To conclude that Bea, because of some new titanic mandate which hadn't yet even been mentioned, almost croaked the messenger who brought her news that her dead daughter was uncroaked and working for GK is farcical.

So Bea had three choices. Death. Undeath. Or allying with Stanley.

Exactly. Death, and going to meet the titans having lived her best according to what she perceived, right or wrong, as their mandates. Undeath, as a twisted pawn of a heretic, willingly acting against all that is good and holy. Or allying with said heretic and assisting them in their unholy crusade. Many throughout Stupidworld history who were offered the same choices have chosen the path of death, and many of those have been sanctified amongst the followers of their religion.
I haven't said that I agree with her choice, but I do understand her characters point of view. Something which seems to be a very difficult thing for many others.

[oslecamo2_temp]

Stanley fled due to a failure of his leadership. He suffered one reverse and decided that his leadership cadre had either betrayed him or failed him utterly, and that it was time to run.

Stanley didn't suffer one reverse. He had lost more than ten cities by now, the suposed perfect warlord's plan just failed, and your best caster's spell just backfired against her.

Meanwhile an overwhelming enemy force is almost knocking at your door. You can either keep trusting the croakmancer that got herself on a coma, or you can use your superior mobility to save whatever you can. That's true leadership. Stanley performed the action that gave his side the best odds of survival. And guess what? It worked! Stanley knew he wouldn't survive if he stayed on the city. Even Hamster, the perfect warlord, could only pull out a mutual anihilation at that point.

I answered all of your other points in the response above. So I'll just take this final question here.

No, you didn't. You just said that:
-Bea is blinded by pride and status quo, wasting her resources promoting garrison units when she could just disband them inside the city and send the money to her allies.
-Bea loathes anything that's not royal with such burning hate she'll rather kill her own side than consider alliance with a non-royal.
-Bea refuses to see that decrypted aren't just mindless uncroaked. Like Ansom showed several times until now, he still thinks and has opinions, just now instead of blindly following royalty he blindly follows Toolism. Not that diferent when you think about it.
-Bea still fails at scouting and at not having any real backup plan.

All signs of horrible, horrible leadership.

You're asking the wrong question. Taken out of context, you've set up a straw poll which if answered in the natural way will give you the result you want to arrive at.You should instead ask:
"Would you rather: Fight for the side with the arkenpliers attuned to a croakamancer (the "witch" who creates uncroaked "abominations") who will raise your fallen countrymen and convert and pervert them into horrifying and twisted versions of themselves who have all the memories and experiences of their former lives, but have their values and beliefs utterly perverted into the worship of that croakamancer. Or would you rather die, and thereby preserve your religious beliefs, your values, your morals, and prevent the perversion of your corpses by the enemy?"

Once the correct question is asked, the one which truly represents the choice Bea felt she was facing, her decision becomes more easily understood.

That's not the correct question. That's the royaly fanatic question. Here's the actual correct question:

"Would you rather fight for the avatar of the titans who gives the dead a second chance to fight, just like they were before besides clothes of a diferent color, and join the winning side? Or would you rather an honorless death and cling for a few more moments to your fanatic beliefs, your twisted religion, your immorals that have led to this hopeless situation, and refuse a second chance at fighting for the titans, so that your side is wiped out of history never to be heard of again?"


Because you keep saying twisted abominations, but really, the only true diference is their loyalty. Before they would fight and die for royalty. Now they fight and die for Toolism. Yeah, that's really twisted! It's awright to be suicidically fanatical to royalism, but it's an abomination to follow the avatar of the titans in order to preserve your side!

How diferent is a decrypted's fanatism to Wanda from any other unit's fanatism to their side'xs ruler?

[Beeskee]

Consider it from a parent's perspective in-world instead of the perspective of a reader of a webcomic: Someone murdered your child, turned them into some kind of sick puppet, and is talking to you through them.


Decrypted may have some free will and are arguably still "themselves" but I don't think it will be easy to convince an un-decrypted relative of theirs.

[Sojiko]

Look to me like he [Stanley] correctly concluded that if he stayed in the city he would croak. Parson's tri-mancy link would not have saved him.

Ah, and now you're crediting Stanley with the wit necessary to determine that Parson would order a trimancer link and uncroak the volcano. Nice! Stan Lee Coyote, super genius.

No, he simply realized he had no chance of survival if he stayed in Gobwin Knob. And he was right, if he had stayed he'd be dead. His mobility to move his side's greatest single failure point (croaking the heirless leader) far away from the overwhelming threat they had no way of defending against was the right call.

Not only did this save his side when Parson did something no one had anticipated (least of all Stanley), but that was all based on a correct assessment of the situation and gave a chance to his side where none would have existed if he stayed.



The efforts and thought he spent to make sure that option existed makes him a better strategist than Bea. Who was a ruler and not a warlord, so that's not surprising.

[Oberon]

That's not the correct question. That's the royaly fanatic question. Here's the actual correct question:

"Would you rather fight for the avatar of the titans who gives the dead a second chance to fight, just like they were before besides clothes of a diferent color, and join the winning side? Or would you rather an honorless death and cling for a few more moments to your fanatic beliefs, your twisted religion, your immorals that have led to this hopeless situation, and refuse a second chance at fighting for the titans, so that your side is wiped out of history never to be heard of again?"


Because you keep saying twisted abominations, but really, the only true diference is their loyalty. Before they would fight and die for royalty. Now they fight and die for Toolism. Yeah, that's really twisted! It's awright to be suicidically fanatical to royalism, but it's an abomination to follow the avatar of the titans in order to preserve your side!

How diferent is a decrypted's fanatism to Wanda from any other unit's fanatism to their side'xs ruler?

You are not even trying to view things from Bea's perspective, or you wouldn't even have offered up that ridiculous "correct question." So it's not surprising that you ask the wrong questions over and over, and offer to "correct" the right questions. Beeskee has it right, listen you him and you might also get it right. Bea is not looking for a chance to die and then "fight, just like they were before besides clothes of a diferent (sic) color, and join the winning side." Bea is instead looking to maintain her values. Again, as if I should need to repeat myself, this is not a judgement call for or against Bea. It is merely the representation of what Bea saw as the situation facing her, and her options. You utterly fail at character empathy. You don't have to like a character to understand them.
And, try to use a spall cheker. Ur posts ar full of typos whitch makes them dificult to red.

[MarbitChow]

How different is a decrypted's fanaticism to Wanda from any other unit's fanaticism to their side's ruler?

Here's a possibility: Units under Bea are devoted to a side. They know that a ruler eventually croaks, and a heir takes over.

Think of this as being similar to the U.S. Army / Navy / Air Force / Marines : the President may change, but the side continues. U.S. Military can be absolutely fanatical, but while they take orders from the President, they are devoted to the side of the United States as a whole.

Everyone in Bea's army fights for the side. All of their friends and lovers are probably part of that side. If they give their lives, they do it to advance or protect their side. They will all fight to protect the ruler, obviously, because if the ruler croaks, the side falls if there is no heir.

Contrast that to Wanda, in which every single decrypted would give their lives to please their Mistress alone, and not because they would die if she does (they might, but we don't know that - only Stanley's death guarantees that for certain).

There's a rational reason why units on a side fanatically protect a side's ruler. The same reason does not apply to Wanda, who is "just" another GK caster, technically.

[Kreistor]

How different is a decrypted's fanaticism to Wanda from any other unit's fanaticism to their side's ruler?

Here's a possibility: Units under Bea are devoted to a side. They know that a ruler eventually croaks, and a heir takes over.

Think of this as being similar to the U.S. Army / Navy / Air Force / Marines : the President may change, but the side continues. U.S. Military can be absolutely fanatical, but while they take orders from the President, they are devoted to the side of the United States as a whole.

Everyone in Bea's army fights for the side. All of their friends and lovers are probably part of that side. If they give their lives, they do it to advance or protect their side. They will all fight to protect the ruler, obviously, because if the ruler croaks, the side falls if there is no heir.

Contrast that to Wanda, in which every single decrypted would give their lives to please their Mistress alone, and not because they would die if she does (they might, but we don't know that - only Stanley's death guarantees that for certain).

There's a rational reason why units on a side fanatically protect a side's ruler. The same reason does not apply to Wanda, who is "just" another GK caster, technically.

Prove that Units are devoted to their Side and not their Ruler. You presume it for the purposes of this discussion, but the conclusion isn't true, unless the assumption can be proven.

[kreszantas]

How different is a decrypted's fanaticism to Wanda from any other unit's fanaticism to their side's ruler?

Here's a possibility: Units under Bea are devoted to a side. They know that a ruler eventually croaks, and a heir takes over.

Think of this as being similar to the U.S. Army / Navy / Air Force / Marines : the President may change, but the side continues. U.S. Military can be absolutely fanatical, but while they take orders from the President, they are devoted to the side of the United States as a whole.

Everyone in Bea's army fights for the side. All of their friends and lovers are probably part of that side. If they give their lives, they do it to advance or protect their side. They will all fight to protect the ruler, obviously, because if the ruler croaks, the side falls if there is no heir.

Contrast that to Wanda, in which every single decrypted would give their lives to please their Mistress alone, and not because they would die if she does (they might, but we don't know that - only Stanley's death guarantees that for certain).

There's a rational reason why units on a side fanatically protect a side's ruler. The same reason does not apply to Wanda, who is "just" another GK caster, technically.

Prove that Units are devoted to their Side and not their Ruler. You presume it for the purposes of this discussion, but the conclusion isn't true, unless the assumption can be proven.

To answer your question look no further than Benjamin refusing Don King's order for the gem to Jetstone, side over ruler.

[Kreistor]

To answer your question look no further than Benjamin refusing Don King's order for the gem to Jetstone, side over ruler.

That's the Obedience rule exception in action. Disobedience of an order is allowed when the Unit feels it is against a higher purpose, or not in the best interest of the Ruler.

In a directly parallel situation to the one you list, Book 1 Comic 5, Wanda specifically states that she thinks Stanley's mistake would lead to his, not his Side's, downfall.

And this is where free will enters into it, as well as the differing hidden Natural Thinkamancy stats of Obedience, Loyalty, and Duty. Disobedience depends on what Higher Purpose the Unit can create.

For Wanda, it is Fate. She is guided by Fate, not her Side and not her Ruler. For Benjamin, I disagree, it is his Ruler... whom he calls a friend. For Caesar, I expect it's his Side now, since he suspects his Ruler is trying to get him killed.

In other words, again, you cannot generalize mental attitudes so easily in Erfworld. As much as we view teh world as a game board, the inhabitants are human with ambition, desire, and purpose. The pieces cannot be so pigeonholed, because they think for themselves, sometimes very creatively.