Book 2 – Page 70

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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby BLANDCorporation » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:01 pm

This whole "avatar stealing" thing has been blown way out of proportion.

But it did get me thinking, and I saw the course of action needed to be taken.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby effataigus » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:06 pm

BLANDCorporation wrote:This whole "avatar stealing" thing has been blown way out of proportion.

But it did get me thinking, and I saw the course of action needed to be taken.


Is anyone else more than a little scared by this...?


EDIT... OH... I just saw that. Well done, sir... whoever you are.


Dr Pepper wrote: what used to be considered the national drink of gamers and late night programmers.


Did that title go to Mountain Dew, or is there some newfangled sugar-caffeine concoction that I'm too out of touch to know about? Red bull?
Last edited by effataigus on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 am, edited 239044 times in total.
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Postby Oberon-avatar-theif » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:09 pm

Just out of curiosity: imagine if Erfworld, as a completed comic, were to be published all at once so that you could read it from start to finish in one go. Would that experience of the story be better than having to wait a week or so between installments, like we do now? Or does the speculation and discussion that takes place in between each strip make up for the wait?

Also, for most text installements, there's at least one poster that says something along the lines of 'this didn't add any value to the story'. Again, if you could read all of Erfworld in one sitting, do you think your view of whether or not individual strips were necessary would change?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Oberon-avatar-thief » Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:53 pm

Dood bro... why you gotta be all up on my forum name?? :x

;)

Oberon-avatar-theif wrote:Just out of curiosity: imagine if Erfworld, as a completed comic, were to be published all at once so that you could read it from start to finish in one go. Would that experience of the story be better than having to wait a week or so between installments, like we do now? Or does the speculation and discussion that takes place in between each strip make up for the wait?

Also, for most text installements, there's at least one poster that says something along the lines of 'this didn't add any value to the story'. Again, if you could read all of Erfworld in one sitting, do you think your view of whether or not individual strips were necessary would change?


Almost definitely better for getting the chance to discuss stuff on here first, I say. Forum discussions seem to proceed very much how a mind operates. A bunch of swirling and, sometimes, conflicting opinions chaining and spinning off into side discussions and impressions. I may advocate a single opinion on here, but I rarely have just that one, and more than once I've argued viewpoints that I'm not wholly convinced of simply to see if it could be defended. This makes the forum a chaotic mess, but ultimately we get some more great ideas, some fun mischief, and, occasionally, some blinding insights that we (or I) wouldn't have picked up on without this extra layer of reflection.

I'd also make the case that the comic is better for having these threads. I'd have a very hard time proving that Rob actually alters what goes into the comic based upon the readers' hang-ups, confusions, and concerns, but it sure seems that way sometimes! One such comment that Rob might react to is "I'm having a hard time seeing how this pertains to anything"... though the typical response from him that I imagine is finger twiddling and an "Eeexceeelent."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby !Oberon » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:48 pm

Oh hai guyz! What's all going on here?

I can honestly say that if the completed comic were published all at once, there would be no reason to post to the forums for me. The experience of the story would be lessened, because I would have missed out on all of the nuances and references that other users point out.

That said, I think that the printed version should be even meatier - the web site should act as a teaser to get you to buy the books.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Beeskee » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:07 pm

I don't know what Rob could actually add to the books to make them beefier that wouldn't take away from making the comic itself, since it's apparently taking all his available time to do so. He could bring in additional artists but that would mean more folks he'd have to pay... Hrm... Actually, he could offer something like 'ad' space in the books, for other artists to include Erfworld-related pictures. They wouldn't get paid or have to pay, but their page could include a URL to their other works. It might bring in more business for them. Good non-canon short stories (Rob-approved) could be included too, as long as the author understood they wouldn't get anything directly for them other than publicity.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Dr Pepper » Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:58 pm

effataigus wrote:
BLANDCorporation wrote:This whole "avatar stealing" thing has been blown way out of proportion.

But it did get me thinking, and I saw the course of action needed to be taken.


Is anyone else more than a little scared by this...?


EDIT... OH... I just saw that. Well done, sir... whoever you are.


Dr Pepper wrote: what used to be considered the national drink of gamers and late night programmers.


Did that title go to Mountain Dew, or is there some newfangled sugar-caffeine concoction that I'm too out of touch to know about? Red bull?


For a short time it went to Snapple. But then PepsiCo decided to add caffeine to Mountain Dew and that dominated for a long time. Right now i think it's divided among a bunch of so called "energy drinks", with no clear favorite.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Kalak » Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:47 am

I must say, given the level of discussion (I've counted two different topics with it, and upwards of two instances of someone getting mad, and over a dozen posts) surrounding the name "oberon," I think it is only appropriate that we have at least 4 oberons now.

I have to wonder if three are controlled by just one person, but even if they are, I think all 4 should be active forum posters. :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby the_tick_rules » Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:35 am

that would clear things up for sure.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby sleepymancer » Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:28 am

Didn't want to get involved in the whole avatar naming situation, but must admit I have been waiting for Titania to turn up. Of course, how she'd respond is anyone's guess.

Regarding the impact of the forum/discussions on the comic, I think Rob does read (keep up the excellent work, I hope I speak for all of us when I say we love the story!), as has been pointed out there have been more than a few moments that I recall reading a bit that seemed reasonably apparent but led to a misguided debate turning up. Those things normally got clarified in the next strip or so. Of course, I believe whole heartedly in the merry twiddling of thumbs postulated above for when something that was meant to be elusive has caused confusion!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby sleepymancer » Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:56 am

Sorry for the double update, I've just figured out what it is that's wrong about this page (yes, I know you don't often see me complaining) I just clicked the link to the comic page by accident and wandered off, when I came back i got to view it from a distance on the screen. The overall layout is quite dense, I realise there is a need for narrative speed towards the end of the book, but I think this page should probably have been split into two pages. Textually, I realise its nice to have the philosophy and the joke on the same page, a bit of bathos and our tension is built up wonderfully by seeing the penny drop and wondering what happens next. Still, I can't help but feel that ending it with Antrium's line '...and Lord Parson...' (panel 8) might have made it seem not so dense. And would still have left a page-turning cliff-hanger

Still, when next page drops I'm sure I'll be understanding the pacing on this one!
I tend to witter on, produce copious typos and run off on nonsensical tangents. If I've done this here, please forgive me :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Hyphen » Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:22 pm

Hatu wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Another comic that didn't need to be written. At this point, did we really need a comic that, besides the one comment on the portal, only clarified Wanda's philosophy? This page could have been a text update, and then drawn for the Book release.


Sadly, I agree. Really, this comic raises more questions than it answers.
(snip)
Wouldn't trapping himself in a far-flung city be an obvious invitation for Charlie to try again? I can't believe Parson wouldn't know how Portals work at this point.


Has no-one thought of the possibility that Parson is intent on capturing the capital for himself??
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby 0beron » Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:33 pm

Hyphen wrote:Has no-one thought of the possibility that Parson is intent on capturing the capital for himself??

It has been mentioned as a possibility I believe, but there are a lot of questions about that. For one, is it even possible?
And if it is, what could he possibly have for a motivation? He has no clue if Wanda would (or even can) join him, and if she doesn't, Stanley would be furious enough to order her to kill him and end the side he creates. If the SPWL spell works as claimed, Stanley might even be able to disband Parson right then and there for reneging.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Beeskee » Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:40 pm

Parson will have to convince Stanley that it's the right thing to do. Does GK really NEED another city at this point? Compared to how much they have to gain if Parson gets the freedom to experiment on his own "toy" side and share the results with GK?

I'm not saying it won't be tricky, and I don't think Parson will get to keep Wanda. Maybe borrow her from time to time... On the other hand, he may end up with Jack on a semi-permanent loan, and if any of Jetstone's casters get croaked and decrypted...

Parson might also end up with some fairly unique unit types, depending on how that works, units which he could share with GK simply by ordering them to turn to GK, or by loaning them to GK. (Units can be loaned, Vinny apparently is on a semi-permanent loan to Faq.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:32 am

Hyphen wrote:Has no-one thought of the possibility that Parson is intent on capturing the capital for himself??


As far as I recall, that is a fairly new suggestion. The one that was more likely to be put forth is that it's Wanda who wants to split off.

sleepymancer wrote:Didn't want to get involved in the whole avatar naming situation, but must admit I have been waiting for Titania to turn up. Of course, how she'd respond is anyone's guess.


Since The Folk are notoriously free spirited, my guess is she'd be thrilled.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Kreistor » Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:47 am

Hyphen wrote:Has no-one thought of the possibility that Parson is intent on capturing the capital for himself??


the only way for that to be possible is if Parson was Royal, which he certainly is not. Only Royal Sides can split in twain.

Further, that would count as a Traitorous Act, and risks the Spell that Summoned him Disbanding him.

And lastly, I can't believe that I'm even commenting on this, because it doesn't fit the flow of the story in any way, shape, or form.

BLANDCorp wrote:As far as I recall, that is a fairly new suggestion. The one that was more likely to be put forth is that it's Wanda who wants to split off.


We do not yet know if a Caster can become an Overlord. They do not pop in the Wild as Barbarians, like Warlords, only from Cities when a Warlord is popped. This suggests that they cannot form new Sides, and consequently could not split from their current Side. We also have not yet seen a Caster referred to as Royalty, so again we run up against the Wall that only Royal Sides can split off a new Side.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby sleepymancer » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:20 am

Kreistor wrote:We do not yet know if a Caster can become an Overlord. They do not pop in the Wild as Barbarians, like Warlords, only from Cities when a Warlord is popped. This suggests that they cannot form new Sides, and consequently could not split from their current Side. We also have not yet seen a Caster referred to as Royalty, so again we run up against the Wall that only Royal Sides can split off a new Side.
[my emphasis]

Hi Kreistor (and everyone else), regarding royal castors i had a vague memory of Slately mentioning something about that, so I've just had a hunt and found this:

Slately put the Royal Scepter of Jetstone in the hands of a non-Royal caster without a moment's hesitation. It was a mark of his seriousness of purpose. But he did cringe as Ace began to take it apart.
[my emphasis]

from Book 2, text 48 http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2011-05-13.png I'm not sure how that modifies your argument.

My hunch is that a castor could be promoted to heir, in the same way that Stanley (a non-royal) was promoted to heir and allowed a non-royal side to form. However, I think the idea of promoting a castor to heir would not occur to or be accepted by most people in Erfworld (at least, those in a position to do so). It may be a social/cultural limitation rather than a rules-based, like non-allied castors not going through portals.

Having said that, is Charlie a caster with his own side? Or is he a warlord with the Arkendish who then gets his thinkamancy from the artefact rather than as his own special feature? I can't recall if this has been addressed in the comic (I assume it hasn't as, hey, mystery-'man') and don't have time to recheck at the moment, unfortunately.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Kreistor » Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:44 am

"Non-royal caster" could imply he existence of Royal Casters, but it could also indicate that thee were two reasons not to hand Ace the Scepter -- that he was not Royal and not a Warlord. It's not solid enough to draw conclusions.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:23 am

Kreistor wrote:
BLANDCorp wrote:As far as I recall, that is a fairly new suggestion. The one that was more likely to be put forth is that it's Wanda who wants to split off.


We do not yet know if a Caster can become an Overlord. They do not pop in the Wild as Barbarians, like Warlords, only from Cities when a Warlord is popped. This suggests that they cannot form new Sides, and consequently could not split from their current Side. We also have not yet seen a Caster referred to as Royalty, so again we run up against the Wall that only Royal Sides can split off a new Side.


This leaves the MK still unexplained, but it's certainly a fair assessment of our knowledge so far. (I once asked whether a Caster can be an Overlord; none of the examples we know fit that description, it just hasn't been forbidden yet).

That said, whatever its merits, the idea that Wanda would form her own side has floated on the forums since way back when Book 1 ended, and while I'm not sold on it (timing is wrong, after Book 1 end), it has some believability. For the reasons you pointed out, Parson forming his own side is even less plausible.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Sieggy » Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:46 am

I've been thinking about whether or not Stanley can disband Parson, and have come to the conclusion that he cannot. Parson was never Popped - if you look at the sound effects for everything else, when something pops, there's a >POP!<. However the sound effect that accompanied Parson's arrival was >PLOTZ!<. Subtle, but telling.

He can't be disbanded or depopped because he was never banded (so to speak) or popped to begin with. All other units pop with no history, experience, or background. If Parson is 22 years old, in Erf terms, he's over 8,000 turns old, which would probably make him the oldest unit on Erf. And he's from an alien universe - he has abilities that no other Erfer has (yet, anyway), and as such may not be subject to all of their conventions. A unit may be disbanded because they BELIEVE their ruler can depop them . . . Piers Anthony had this as an element in one of his books, in which Satan could disband any demon only because the demons believed he could.

I also think that Stanley's control over Parson has been steadily eroding as Parson gains confidence and command. If Stanley were to have tried to disband Parson in the very beginning, perhaps . . . if only because he actually believed it. But now, I suspect that if Stanley were to try it, all that would happen would be Parson standing there with a really big grin, and realize that he's now totally free of Stanley's control (nothing like a death command to drop loyalty / duty to zero . . .).

Also, it's interesting that Toolism is the inadvertent result of Parson's smacktalk to Ansom. Had he not jerked Ansom's chain that way, Ansom would have been Wanda's slave still, but would not have has the Toolist concept to justify his conversion. It's one of Fate's little jokes . . .
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