Book 2 – Page 71

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Re: Book 2 – Page 71

Postby Swodaems » Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:20 pm

splintermute wrote:
Zeku wrote:Thinkamancers are never specifically named in the two panels that were quoted: 5 and 36. So I'm wondering whether thinkamancers were involved in the creation of the spell at all, or whether they just became aware of it through their lookamancy buddies.


I think everyone assumes a spell of that magnitude had to be made by a trimancer, in which case the involvement a thinkamancer is implied


In fact, the use of a trimancer link in the forging of that spell has been flat out confirmed. The 3 types of casters are said to be a predictamancer, a thinkamancer, and a lookamancer.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 71

Postby Zeku » Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:13 am

I think it's possible that only the Predictamancers are aware of the full ramifications of the spell. Findamancers don't care about fate, and the Predictamancers weren't required to tell the Findamancers involved in the design process that "We're making a Doomsday Spell!" Maybe the Findamancers were just told to create the search/summon function of the spell. Remember that the spell parameters were (ostensibly) specified by Wanda, not the casters in the design process, and not the casters in the 'create the spell' process.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 71

Postby Swodaems » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:18 am

Saela wrote:Alternatively: the spell was made by a link with a Lookamancer who was skilled in casting Findamancy also, and thus functioned as a pseudo 4 person link.

I'm actually expecting this explanation to turn out to be correct. We've never had a clear definition of what the limits are on casters learning spells outside of their disipline despite seeing casters trying to learn or on the practical limits of the link.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 71

Postby drachefly » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:50 am

It's also possible that the link members received extensive specific coaching on design shortly before forming the link, and/or that the link was instructed what to do by a caster from the other discipline, in a way known to be safe (addressing the link directly, speaking impersonally, etc.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 71

Postby rkyeun » Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:18 pm

And the tower moves another single pixel towards the ground.
Seriously, you can't write urgency into the story in the form of a falling tower that's going to close the portal and hose the whole plan, and then ignore it in favor of Parson doing algebra homework on his calculator watch in the middle of a UN conference on global tooling. You'll lose all sense of suspense.
With how lackadaisical everyone is about it, the damn tower better fall and close off the portal leaving Parson and the Predictamancers on the other side to form their own garage band.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 71

Postby boegiboe » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:21 pm

Sizemore says that a four-caster link can't even be done, presumably because the thinkamancer only has two hands to make good contact.

But could a five-mancer link be done? So you have: Findamancer - Think - Predictamancer - Think - Lookamancer
With the rest of tGMtTA there to monitor, mediate, and disentangle after the deed, perhaps this conspiracy created something the Erf had never known. Perhaps Parson's summoning was the result of a five-caster link!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 71

Postby fjolnir » Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:07 pm

it's very simple, the link makes the scroll, the other 'mancer was included in the 'support plan' who does the correct casting.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 71

Postby Zeku » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:32 pm

We know this much:
Design the spell: Find/Predict
Create the spell: Look/Think/Predict
Cast the spell: Wanda (Anyone with Lookamancy talent)

Without drawing a sharp distinction between findamancy and lookamancy, the whole thing is a mess. Lookamancy adds "Motion" to "Life" and "Erf" which -might- imply the transportation of living things magically. However, the other two disciplines of Eyemancy (foolamancy and thinkamancy) focus on perception rather than tangibles, so it would be consistent if lookamancy centered on the perception of the world itself, rather than something concrete, like the precise location of a person.

With that being true, that the lookamancer actually does the "looking," that would mean that it's the findamancer that handles the summoning itself, the means by which a person is summoned across dimensions.

If on the other hand, the findamancer does all the "finding," then lookamancers do more than just look, and can move things as well.

I tend to favor the first explanation, now that I've thought about it. A findamancer, concerned with people specifically, would be more likely to have a summoning power, than lookamancers,(like Misty) who seem to be living spy satellites. With Findamancers concerned only with Life and Erf, they would handle personnel summoning, with Hat Magic handling the transportation of non-living things.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 71

Postby boegiboe » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:51 pm

Zeku wrote:I tend to favor the first explanation, now that I've thought about it. A findamancer, concerned with people specifically, would be more likely to have a summoning power, than lookamancers,(like Misty) who seem to be living spy satellites. With Findamancers concerned only with Life and Erf, they would handle personnel summoning, with Hat Magic handling the transportation of non-living things.


I agree with this. Yet we know it for a fact that a predictamancer, and thinkamancer, and a lookamancer (Hubble) were in the link. This is why I am drawn to the five-mancer link hypothesis.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 71

Postby drachefly » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:18 pm

boegiboe wrote:Sizemore says that a four-caster link can't even be done, presumably because the thinkamancer only has two hands to make good contact.

But could a five-mancer link be done? So you have: Findamancer - Think - Predictamancer - Think - Lookamancer
With the rest of tGMtTA there to monitor, mediate, and disentangle after the deed, perhaps this conspiracy created something the Erf had never known. Perhaps Parson's summoning was the result of a five-caster link!


You might need a third thinkamancer with a hand on each of the Findamancer and Lookamancer, or one with a hand on each of the other two thinkamancers.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 71

Postby imgran » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:54 pm

boegiboe wrote:Sizemore says that a four-caster link can't even be done, presumably because the thinkamancer only has two hands to make good contact.

But could a five-mancer link be done? So you have: Findamancer - Think - Predictamancer - Think - Lookamancer
With the rest of tGMtTA there to monitor, mediate, and disentangle after the deed, perhaps this conspiracy created something the Erf had never known. Perhaps Parson's summoning was the result of a five-caster link!


Oooh, the possibilities.

Three 'Mancers linked into one individual and then merged with a second trimage link connected by a three-Thinkamancer link. Then you take THAT link and...

The metamancy is just insane. The only issue is, could you ever get them all OUT again. That's probably what stops such things from happening.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 71

Postby imgran » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:08 pm

Zeku wrote:We know this much:
Design the spell: Find/Predict
Create the spell: Look/Think/Predict
Cast the spell: Wanda (Anyone with Lookamancy talent)

Without drawing a sharp distinction between findamancy and lookamancy, the whole thing is a mess. Lookamancy adds "Motion" to "Life" and "Erf" which -might- imply the transportation of living things magically. However, the other two disciplines of Eyemancy (foolamancy and thinkamancy) focus on perception rather than tangibles, so it would be consistent if lookamancy centered on the perception of the world itself, rather than something concrete, like the precise location of a person.

With that being true, that the lookamancer actually does the "looking," that would mean that it's the findamancer that handles the summoning itself, the means by which a person is summoned across dimensions.

If on the other hand, the findamancer does all the "finding," then lookamancers do more than just look, and can move things as well.

I tend to favor the first explanation, now that I've thought about it. A findamancer, concerned with people specifically, would be more likely to have a summoning power, than lookamancers,(like Misty) who seem to be living spy satellites. With Findamancers concerned only with Life and Erf, they would handle personnel summoning, with Hat Magic handling the transportation of non-living things.


No, I think it's the metamancy (I'm gonna squeeze that word into the lexicon here if I can) of the trimage linkup, allowing a mage to influence axes of magic that they ordinarily couldn't. Also I do think secondary casting ability might have come into play and someone in that link may have had a little hat magic. I'd be inclined to suspect Hubble personally -- part of the sales pitch back in the day was that Hubble would bring the universe to our doorstep.

If that's the case, then it's pretty clear that the Eyemancy linkup was played so straight because Jack and Misty both had little to no secondary casting ability, and since Misty is dead and Jack has made no attempt to cast outside his school without a scroll, that's a fairly safe bet.

As to the concept of Metamancy itself, I think that really should be where Retconjuration is and Deletionism was on the chart. It's really what's supposed to be there -- the ability of the Titans to shape the world as needed. That or Naughtymancy itself. And I honestly think it's a better word for what the authors are trying to say when they explain the concept
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Re: Book 2 – Page 71

Postby Oberon » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:19 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Beeskee wrote:Imagine if, say, people gained the ability to directly kill each other through the internet.
Well, they say an armed society is a polite society. Presumably deaders don't disrespect that much.
The horrible consequences of Internet disrespect is... No one knows who the killer/flamer/killer was... You might, for example, choose a screen name which is nearly indistinguishable from my own. 0beron, for example. But what is the chance of this happening? :lol:
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Re: Book 2 – Page 71

Postby Frost » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:29 am

The grumpy guy in the suit panel 8 would be Harry Seldon, of Asimov's Foundation series.
Greatest scientific predictor in fiction since he predicts the 1000 year fate of the entire galactic empire. (Dont worry no spoilers here)
He is described as a bit dour/grumpy in the books, and the books were written somewhere in the early 50's I believe, which is about the time period of the guy's suit.

Surprised no one offered this earlier. I made an account just to post this in here.
BTW, the Wyrd sister inclusion from Gargoyles was awesome :)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 71

Postby effataigus » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:07 am

Ah, like summertime wildfires, this debate never fully goes away!

In the link:
Look/Think/Predict http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -12-24.png

Supposed to cast the spell:
Find http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F006.jpg

Wanda's casual description to an "enemy" unit:
Look/Find http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F036.jpg

Another shred of evidence that comes up a lot is from this page (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F054.jpg)... Sizemore says that 4-mancer links can't be done. Yes, this doesn't necessarily rule out 5 mancer links, but his description of the problem makes it sound unlikely to me.

Much has also been made of the ambiguous use of plural in "Thinkamancers only sort of thought they knew."

I take these observations and think: Look/Think/Predict make the scroll and a Find casts it. Other people see only a Look/Think/Predict/Think/Carny/Think/Shock/Think/Plot/Think/Asbestos/Think/Find link. Others assume one of the characters is lying, and still others assume Rob made a mistake.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 71

Postby drachefly » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:12 am

Look - I didn't say that such an extended linkup WAS USED. I was wondering if it's possible if they begin thinking outside the box.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 71

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:23 am

effataigus wrote:Ah, like summertime wildfires, this debate never fully goes away!

In the link:
Look/Think/Predict http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -12-24.png

Supposed to cast the spell:
Find http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F006.jpg

Wanda's casual description to an "enemy" unit:
Look/Find http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F036.jpg

Another shred of evidence that comes up a lot is from this page (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F054.jpg)... Sizemore says that 4-mancer links can't be done. Yes, this doesn't necessarily rule out 5 mancer links, but his description of the problem makes it sound unlikely to me.

Much has also been made of the ambiguous use of plural in "Thinkamancers only sort of thought they knew."

I take these observations and think: Look/Think/Predict make the scroll and a Find casts it. Other people see only a Look/Think/Predict/Think/Carny/Think/Shock/Think/Plot/Think/Asbestos/Think/Find link. Others assume one of the characters is lying, and still others assume Rob made a mistake.


Well, but the predictmancers and thinkmancers were definetely both involved deeply on the conspiracy, because they both know about Hamster and are now trying to take control of things. If they hadn't participated, we wouldn't have the current mexican standoff.

Another possibility is that Wanda was simple lied to by the thinkmancers/predictmancers/lookmancer conspiracy. They only told her 2/3 of the truth to don't reveal all of their game at once.

Or perhaps she simply doesn't have the patience to properly explain spell details to non-mancers. :lol:

Swodaems wrote:
Saela wrote:Alternatively: the spell was made by a link with a Lookamancer who was skilled in casting Findamancy also, and thus functioned as a pseudo 4 person link.

I'm actually expecting this explanation to turn out to be correct. We've never had a clear definition of what the limits are on casters learning spells outside of their disipline despite seeing casters trying to learn or on the practical limits of the link.


Ahem, we do have however an important detail.

Have we ever seen any mancer cast a spell of other discipline than his primary whitout scroll/item help?


Because Wanda boasts about being quite skillful on all magics, but whenever she does non-croakmancy stuff, she always had a scroll/item to do so.

Even Sizemore, who tecnically isn't that skilled on other magics, provides important suport with healomancy and flashmancy with scrolls.

I would say that's cear evidence that mancers can't actualy learn spells from other schools. They at best can activate items, and they may or may not have a bigger affinity with other schools. So Wanda can do powerful thinkmancy, but only if she has the correct thinkmancy scroll. But she still isn't an actual thinkmancer, and ends up eating the backslash from her own spell anyway.

rkyeun wrote:And the tower moves another single pixel towards the ground.
Seriously, you can't write urgency into the story in the form of a falling tower that's going to close the portal and hose the whole plan, and then ignore it in favor of Parson doing algebra homework on his calculator watch in the middle of a UN conference on global tooling. You'll lose all sense of suspense.
With how lackadaisical everyone is about it, the damn tower better fall and close off the portal leaving Parson and the Predictamancers on the other side to form their own garage band.


Remember however that Erfworld's time has a much diferent relativity than our own, being a pseudo-turn game, so the tower is indeed falling just a pixel while Hamster does algebra and holds his United Mancers conference.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 71

Postby sleepymancer » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:09 pm

More importantly, Parson doesn't know that the tower is falling and the portal will close, so the urgency to get through before that isn't motivating him. Therefore, he has as much time to do his arithmancy homework, sorry, mathamancy as he needs. Can't expect him to have out of character knowledge on this.

Regarding the multiple thinkamancers in a link up, my current hunch is no. For the simple reason that the thinkamancer guides the other two, a sole point of dominant consciousness uniting the others actions. I'm not sure that two guiding minds would work, for the simple reason that I can't imagine any of them following another thinkamancers total authority or being able to work in perfect tandem. I guess there's a possibility of having three thinkamancers, so that one links and leads the other two, and those two link and lead two non-thinkamancers each. Even that, though I think is asking to much socially of them!

Having said that, I love the notion that the three-caster limit is solely due to the number of hands the thinkamancer has, I laughed long and loud (in a good way) when I read it :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 71

Postby Swodaems » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:32 pm

Of course, this mock suspense of Parson getting thru or not may just be setup to a later moment that is meant to be climatically suspenseful.

Suppose that Parson gets thru and then the portal closes behind him when Slately croaks. Jack, Wanda, and Parson have just had their means of escape cut off. Despite the fact that every Jetstone unit in the city just went Barbarian, Haggar is still around and GK would probably have to fight the barbarians anyway. Under the right circumstances, that 'fight' could favor Haggar and the Barbarians. (Yes, Wanda's Decryption ability & Bonus is a serious advantage, but is one that can be over come with the right tactics.)

Of course, in this scenario, the city could technically have fallen to GK at that point, opening a possibility to reopen the portal: Spin off a new side using the newly conquered capital site. Only problem with that solution is that I hate it personally because of how shoehorned the rise of either Wanda or Parson to ruler would feel under those circumstances. (Possiblly Jack, but I think that's unlikely.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 71

Postby Oberon » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:42 pm

effataigus wrote:I take these observations and think: Look/Think/Predict make the scroll and a Find casts it. Other people see only a Look/Think/Predict/Think/Carny/Think/Shock/Think/Plot/Think/Asbestos/Think/Find link.
I've yet so see someone speculate on a Look/Think/Predict/Think/Carny/Think/Shock/Think/Plot/Think/Asbestos/Think/Find link. However, I have seen a Look/Think/Predict/Think/Carny/Think/Neutronium/Shock/Think/Plot/Think/Asbestos/Think/Find link. I find that speculation to be more dense, but your mileage may vary by plus or minus a furlong per fortnight.
oslecamo2_temp wrote:Ahem, we do have however an important detail.

Have we ever seen any mancer cast a spell of other discipline than his primary whitout scroll/item help?


Because Wanda boasts about being quite skillful on all magics, but whenever she does non-croakmancy stuff, she always had a scroll/item to do so.
Yes, but your definition is too restrictive. Several casters have used scrolls out of their discipline. Sizemore used shockamancy, someone healed Wanda, etc. No special mention was ever made of any of that casting. Wanda's casting of the SPW scroll by a findamancer was made special mention of, however. Twice.
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