Book 2 - Text Updates 053

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby Kreistor » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:45 pm

Sieggy wrote:Except that a few weeks before the WTC attacks, Bush had been briefed by the NSC that bin Laden was determined to attack the US


The FBI receives THOUSANDS of reports every day, most fueled by paranoia about other people with different skin colour. To pick one out as more important than the others, and somehow make the enormous leap that it was somehow associated with Bin Laden (who was a problem for Clinton long before Bush even announced candidacy much less became President, and it is Clinton that reportedly told Bush that OBL was going to be his biggest problem), is absurd! Hindsight is 20/20. You must approach this with the knowledge that no terrorist attacks on US soil had ever occurred, and that the biggest attackers against the US of previous decades, the Palestinians, had unilaterally halted all attacks on the US.

(again, going after the same targets he had before),


US targets on foreign soil, not on US soil.

and that intel indicated a high probability of using aircraft to do so.


GROSSLY FALSE. One report by one element of the FBI had come up wht the idea of using planes to hit US targets, based probably on a hijacking of a French plane in Africa, had been written, but there is ZERO evidence that it ever made it out of the terrorist division of the FBI. There is no evidence whatsoever that it ever appeared on the desk of anyone that Bush worked with on a daily basis, much less his own.

He blew off the report,


He never SAW the report. It didn't even make it to the desk of the head of the FBI.

telling the briefers 'Well, now you've covered your asses', and ignored it.


That NEVER happened. How could anyone know what Bush said? Especially conspiracy theorists? it is pure invention by people that want to find someone to blame... people that want to believe that no one can choose to hurt Americans and get away with it. People that want to believe that the USA is an island, far from the reach of the entire world, untouchable, unmanipulatable, invulnerable. People that want a scapegoat and will choose a target and make up anything they want to cause that person to suffer.

No one can know what Bush said about any report, nmuch less one that cannot be proven to have touched his desk.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby Sieggy » Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:09 pm

The record indicates otherwise. On Aug 6, 2001 the President and the WH staff were briefed by the NSC of the strong likelihood of an impending attack using aircraft, though the target was not identified. And al Qaeda had attacked the WTC previously, to little effect, on Feb 26, 1993 by Ramzi Yousef, (who was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's nephew) so yes, it was an attack on US soil conducted by al Qaeda. As regards Bush's comments after the briefing he had received, that was from Richard Clark's book on the subject, 'Against All Enemies'.

For a timeline and analysis, please read the following (unless you think it's another one of those conspiracy sites, mind you).
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?ti ... efing_Memo

I don't think Bush was 'behind' the attacks, I don't think him capable of that much evil. I do, however, think that he was given a heads up and ignored it as he was more concerned with other issues and like so many felt invulnerable. I don't believe for an instant that the US gov't was at fault or directly involved in the commission of the act, though they were certainly negligent in failing to follow up on leads regarding people who had previously attacked the US and had not only expressed a desire to do so again but intel sources indicated that they were planning to do so, and soon.

I think that the guilt he felt in knowing that he HAD been warned and he had ignored the warning is what led him to his increasingly poor decisions, which were abetted by the opportunists around him (many of whom I actually DO think were evil enough to have done so, but didn't) (until later . . .)
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby kreszantas » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:16 am

Sieggy wrote:The record indicates otherwise. On Aug 6, 2001 the President and the WH staff were briefed by the NSC of the strong likelihood of an impending attack using aircraft, though the target was not identified. And al Qaeda had attacked the WTC previously, to little effect, on Feb 26, 1993 by Ramzi Yousef, (who was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's nephew) so yes, it was an attack on US soil conducted by al Qaeda. As regards Bush's comments after the briefing he had received, that was from Richard Clark's book on the subject, 'Against All Enemies'.

For a timeline and analysis, please read the following (unless you think it's another one of those conspiracy sites, mind you).
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?ti ... efing_Memo

I don't think Bush was 'behind' the attacks, I don't think him capable of that much evil. I do, however, think that he was given a heads up and ignored it as he was more concerned with other issues and like so many felt invulnerable. I don't believe for an instant that the US gov't was at fault or directly involved in the commission of the act, though they were certainly negligent in failing to follow up on leads regarding people who had previously attacked the US and had not only expressed a desire to do so again but intel sources indicated that they were planning to do so, and soon.

I think that the guilt he felt in knowing that he HAD been warned and he had ignored the warning is what led him to his increasingly poor decisions, which were abetted by the opportunists around him (many of whom I actually DO think were evil enough to have done so, but didn't) (until later . . .)


Just as Pearl Harbor attack by the Japanese was the WW2 spark to get us to enter that war. There are plenty at PH that day (my dad being one of them) that knew of the attack before it happened but *confusing* intelligence got in the way. Most had at least a day warning before that attack, yet it achieved its desired results.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby Kreistor » Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:06 am

Sieggy wrote:The record indicates otherwise. On Aug 6, 2001 the President and the WH staff were briefed by the NSC of the strong likelihood of an impending attack using aircraft, though the target was not identified.


Did you read the article you quoted/ It says no such thing! It wasn't an "attack", it was a hostage-trade scenario, which would have required it take place off US soil and far from British, French or Israeli commandos.

The August 6, 2001, President's Daily Briefing Memo

White House Fact Sheet: "The August 6, 2001 PDB Entitled "bin Ladin Determined to Strike in US", April 10, 2004.

White House Briefing on Release of the August 6, 2001 President's Daily Brief Excerpt "Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in U.S.", April 10, 2004.

Download April 6, 2001, President's Daily Briefing Memo as a PDF document.

The White House released a redacted copy of the August 6, 2001, President's Daily Briefing Memo at approximately 6:15 PM (EST) on April 10, 2004.

CNN reports that the "White House declassified and released Saturday the daily intelligence briefing delivered to President Bush a month before the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001." [3]

"Portions of the intelligence report dealing with Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network and dated August 6, 2001, have been redacted for national security reasons, the White House said.

"The memo, titled 'Bin Laden determined to attack inside the United States,' had been described by the White House as a largely historical document with scant information about domestic al Qaeda threats.

"The memo includes intelligence on al Qaeda threats as recent as three months before the attacks.

"Much of the intelligence was uncorroborated, and nothing in the memo points directly to the September 11 attacks.

"Highlights of the report include:

An intelligence report received in May 2001 indicating that al Qaeda was trying to send operatives to the United States through Canada to carry out an attack using explosives. That information had been passed on to intelligence and law enforcement agencies.
An allegation that al Qaeda had been considering ways to hijack American planes to win the release of operatives who had been arrested in 1998 and 1999.
An allegation that bin Laden was set on striking the United States as early as 1997 and through early 2001.
Intelligence suggesting that suspected al Qaeda operatives were traveling to and from the United States, were U.S. citizens, and may have had a support network in the country.
A report that at least 70 FBI investigations were under way in 2001 regarding possible al Qaeda cells/terrorist-related operations in the United States.


Nothing in that list says that planes would be hijacked on US soil, nor that operatives were already in place to do so. There's a lot more on that page, but I see a whole heapload more "Spin" in the disingenuous interpretations by conspiracy theorists on the actions of Bush and Rice than they themselves spun things. Newsflash: governments spin info every day, so that's not evidence of nefarious intent. All through the page, the closest you get is the suggestion that Bush was told OBL had wanted to hit inside the USA for four years before Bush took office, which is so non-specific that there is absolutely no action or regulation that can be taken to prevent the undiscovered plans, and is only evidence of the ineffectual nature of their planning, such as the ineffectual mid-90's bombing.

And while I find it amusing that you can find the plane crash scenario in a report, that report also included many other attack scenarios. The 9/11 attacks weren't the first hijackings, so the whole airline industry is responsible for not strengthening the doors to the cockpit. To lay out something like that solely against the US Executive and not the FAA and the various aircraft regulators around Europe, where hijackings and bombings are far more common, is simple favoritism. With a non-specific threat to the US, you can blow massive amounts of money against all the plans you invent, and still not put one barrier in place against the real plan. That's why security tends to eb reactive, not pro-active: there are simply far too many attack vectors to block all of tehm, so you block the ones that have been effected, so that they don't get repeated.

To take this briefing and jump to, "Oh, they knew planes were going to be hijacked in the US and crashed into New York" is absurd. This is just a daily briefing, with absolutely nothing out of the ordinary, and with no indication of any intelligence on the real mission underway.

Stop reading conspiracy whack job analysis, and read the source material for yourself! If people did that, Loose Change would be curb stomped for all of the quote mining. Fortunately, someone did go track down all those bad quotes, and provided original source material. Hit up Youtube for "Screw Loose Change" and read the source yourself. That is your greatest defense against the schizophrenic conspiracy theorists that are perverting reality with a tiny piece of aluminum with iron attached, which could have come from any electronic device in the WTC's.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby Sieggy » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:42 am

Methinks thou doth protest too much . . . My point is that the US intel services had plenty of warning that something was afoot, the President was informed that something was afoot, and rather than going to a state of alert or even taking a greater interest in investigating the indications further, the warnings were ignored, and anyone wishing to press the issue placed their careers in jeopardy. It was a classic case of arrogant complacency, not criminal conspiracy. We thought that because we were a super power with nukes and carriers and missiles and bombers and subs and a huge army that NO ONE would ever be stupid enough to attack us, the mightiest most badass nation on earth. Besides, God loved us and would protect us from anything like that because Bush was Born Again, and things like that could never happen to a nation led by a True Christian.

When the attacks occurred, I think Bush flashed back to the briefing he had received less than a month before, and realized that he had just cocked up in an especially epic manner, the kind that is reflected poorly in the history books. Had he said on Aug 6 "Hmmm . . . this looks ominous - I want this matter moved to the front burner, find out what's going on, and I want daily reports on your progress.", odds are the attack could have been disrupted. As it was, he blew the whole matter off, which turned out to be The Wrong Thing To Do.

I can only imagine the sick horror he felt inside when he realized that while he didn't cause the attack, he didn't take any steps to prevent it even when informed that an attack was very likely. He had staggeringly powerful resources at his command, but failed to exercise due care and prudence which resulted in the deaths of thousands and a national trauma of biblical proportions. The guilt he felt, the realization that had he but issued a command to investigate further this might have been prevented is the kind of thing that eats your soul.

And that guilt affected his judgement, his future decisions, and led us to the sorry state in which we now find ourselves. His bad judgment was compounded and reinforced through his advisers, who allowed their political goals to replace the goal of vengeance, fell prey to a hubris magnified by ignorance and self delusion, and succeeded in doing exactly what bin Laden wanted them to do.

I'm not alleging any conspiracy, I'm alleging complacency and incompetence. As a general rule, I never ascribe to malice that which can be explained through simple stupidity.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby drachefly » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:10 am

Kriestor, wow. You're making some serious straw men there.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby Kreistor » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:29 am

Sieggy wrote:Methinks thou doth protest too much . . .


Can't touch me. I'm Canadian.

My point is that the US intel services had plenty of warning that something was afoot, the President was informed that something was afoot, and rather than going to a state of alert or even taking a greater interest in investigating the indications further, the warnings were ignored, and anyone wishing to press the issue placed their careers in jeopardy.


So, what what was in the briefings in May, March, February? Under Clinton?

There was only one report about the real threat, and the idea you could pick that one out of the other thousands just by being vigilant is absurd. Sure, let's say they do go on higher alert. How does that result in one report becoming more important? It still has no corroboration, and you still have limited resources to investigate with. With 1000 such reports per day, and three peopel to investigate each report (two field and one operator), that means you need to devote 3000 people every day, and it will take more than one day per report. The number of FBI agents you need for that level of investigation is enormous.

It was a classic case of arrogant complacency, not criminal conspiracy.


No, it was a case of limited resources. It is simply not feasible to investigate every report in significant detail, so you investigate the ones that come from multiple sources, that have corroboration.

When the attacks occurred, I think Bush flashed back to the briefing he had received less than a month before, and realized that he had just cocked up in an especially epic manner,


That is simply absurd. Nothing he had control over could ensure that 9/11 got stopped in the planning stages. Even if they had suspected a major effort, the American people, with no evidence of danger, would not have tolerated a massive increase in FBI presence and investigation. With the demand for warrants and no anti-terrorist legislation, investigating immigrants based on the profile that they came from the middle east and had tenuous ties to terrorism would have been rejected by the attitudes of the time. The FBI could not have investigated in the way you want, because they didn't have the powers that they do now.

I can only imagine the sick horror he felt inside when he realized that while he didn't cause the attack, he didn't take any steps to prevent it even when informed that an attack was very likely.


An attack of what type? Against what target? No mention of the WTC's and Pentagon. No mention of planes as missiles. The report is extremely non-specific, and a non-specific response could not have stopped it. They carried box cutters, which were allowed on planes at the time.

He had staggeringly powerful resources at his command,


No, he didn't. Not until AFTER 9/11 did they have the resources and legislation in place to execute investigations into people like these terrorists. Heck, it was still airline policy to comply wiht hijackers, since the only hijackings in the US had taken aircraft to Havana, which was only inconvenient.

And that guilt affected his judgement, his future decisions, and led us to the sorry state in which we now find ourselves.


Bologna. 9/11 made Bush a Wartime president, and he wore that uniform with pride.

I'm not alleging any conspiracy, I'm alleging complacency and incompetence. As a general rule, I never ascribe to malice that which can be explained through simple stupidity.


It's really easy to use hindsight to accuse others of incompetence. Just cherry pick the right info, ignore all the rest that they had to treat just as carefully that lead to nothing, and you're there! TO you it's obvioous what was important, because you now know what was important. Before the attacks, no one knew what was important.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby drachefly » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:11 pm

Actually, Clinton had a plan to take on Al Qaeda, which, had Gore won, would have been implemented immediately. The Bush team ignored it.

POINT BEING, though, Stanley was in the end in charge and it is his fault he let himself be too influenced by Wanda, unless of course she was using mind control powers rather than super-sexiness. So far as I know, we've only seen Maggie use mind control on Stanley, and it's not far-fetched to suppose that Wanda A) thought she had things under control with super-sexiness, and B) isn't subtle enough at mind control to be safe doing it on her boss.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby Kreistor » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:25 pm

drachefly wrote:Actually, Clinton had a plan to take on Al Qaeda, which, had Gore won, would have been implemented immediately. The Bush team ignored it.


Pure fantasy. Clinton actually tried to kill OBL a couple times, but every time complications forced the CIA to balk (collateral damage, in onecases).

The CIA did not diminish its efforts under Bush at all. OBL was still #1 on the FBI wanted list for the first 9 months of 2001, which tells you that nothing changed. Intel on OBL was always scant and risky, so thinking that suddenly that it was scant and risky under Bush is evidence of poor effort is simply favoritism.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby drachefly » Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:05 pm

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB147/index.htm

Okay, it wasn't a concrete specific plan - it was a careful investigation into the options, that sat there for 8 months gathering dust. What was holding back the Clinton administration from actually executing those options was the election and fact of an incoming administration. Had Gore been elected, he would have proceeded with those options as they had agreed. Al-Qaeda would have been under far more pressure. Could they have pulled off 9/11 anyway? Totally unknown, quite possibly. Would they have had a harder time? Yes.

POINT IS… well, I've said it before. Whether or not you agree with the aptness of the analogy, Stanley was fundamentally in charge and responsible, and the further one gets from the time he took over, the more so this is.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:11 pm

drachefly wrote:POINT IS… well, I've said it before. Whether or not you agree with the aptness of the analogy, Stanley was fundamentally in charge and responsible, and the further one gets from the time he took over, the more so this is.


And again, if the responsibility is only his, then why doesn't he get praised for his sucesses? Under Stanley's leadership, GK is now a mighty side spanning multiple cities with the coffers bursting, two attunned arkentools and the supreme warlord.

Because Stanley, above any other erfworld leader, is actually willing to listen to his subordinates and acept daring strategies, whitout need of the enemy being inside his capital tearing the tower down. All the while wise enough to know a deathtrap when he sees it and know when to retreat himself.

Evil overlord Rule 106: If my supreme command center comes under attack, I will immediately flee to safety in my prepared escape pod and direct the defenses from there. I will not wait until the troops break into my inner sanctum to attempt this.

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby Kreistor » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:30 pm

drachefly wrote:Okay, it wasn't a concrete specific plan - it was a careful investigation into the options, that sat there for 8 months gathering dust. What was holding back the Clinton administration from actually executing those options was the election and fact of an incoming administration. Had Gore been elected, he would have proceeded with those options as they had agreed. Al-Qaeda would have been under far more pressure.


Pressure from what? Without the fear created by 9/11 what was actually possible? Al Qaeda was deep inside Afghanistan so far that Clinton rejected all attempts to snipe him in his camp. There was no extraction of the sniper possible, so it was suicide.

Was an invasion of Afghanistan without 9/11 in the cards? That's what it took to put pressure on them, and they are *still* active in that region 10 years on. I don't know what kind of "pressure" you think was in that report, but it certainly wasn't drones flying over a sovereign nation.

Could they have pulled off 9/11 anyway? Totally unknown, quite possibly.


No qquestion about it, yes they absolutely could. try to identify the 20 terrorists from the thousands of Muslim immigrants, when they are compartmentalized with extremely limited communication.

Would they have had a harder time? Yes.


Not in the slightest. What roadblocks could have been put in place? Was "Ban box cutters and screwdrivers from aircraft" in that report? This op was so easy for Al Qaeda to plan and implement it's remarkable in its simplicity.

POINT IS… well, I've said it before. Whether or not you agree with the aptness of the analogy, Stanley was fundamentally in charge and responsible, and the further one gets from the time he took over, the more so this is.


Oslocamo has it right. If he is responsible for the mistakes, he's also responsible for the successes. So whatever you're pinning on Stanley, you also must give him credit for the uncroaked voclano trap, the recapture of a dozen cities, and maybe the capture of Jetstone. He was, after all, the guy that set the definition of what constituted the Perfect Chief Warlord, and he pretty much got it all... except the handsome part... so anything that Parson does is Stanley's fault, right?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby drachefly » Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:15 pm

First off, the on-topic matters.

The failures of Stanley were Ruler-based - pursuing an overly aggressive foreign policy. That's his domain, so yes, the failures there are 100% his.

Now, let's look at the successes you list:
Volcano trap. Well, he did accept Wanda's advice by hiring Parson. That mitigates his failure to resist Wanda's advice earlier by making the idea of following Wanda's advice not so bad.

Stuff that happens with the second arkentool in hand: Well, you get credit for playing the hand you're dealt. At this point he had a royal flush, or a lot of trump cards, or a lot of low non-hearts, or whatever kind of hand you're talking about. THAT, if nothing else, mitigates the credit that can be accrued to anyone.

~~~~~

Second, concerning 9/11.

Why is it that we haven't had airplanes flying into buildings every week for ten years? Because people know that terrorists do things like that. The security theatre elements like banning box cutters have done nothing. All it would have taken to prevent the tactic from working would have been a highly public announcement that it was being attempted. That intel, we had. Other simple steps could be taken, like having the FAA be on the lookout for such planes and having a means for them to sound the alarm! Reinforcing cockpit doors wouldn't hurt. These things do NOT require hunting down the terrorists. They just involve pulling our pants up and keeping our eyes open.

Moreover, we around that time acquired a valuable Al-Qaeda leader in custody in an allied country. After 9/11 when interrogating him was finally authorized, he revealed a considerable amount of intelligence (without a trace of torture, note), including the Al-Qaeda affiliation of the attackers. The particular tactic used in that case would not have worked, but others could have.

What specific pressure could be applied? We had contacts with the Northern Alliance - remember them? - and they would have eagerly accepted military aid to fight the Taliban. That would have made extraction impossible for that hit team you describe. Back in the US, simply sending out a memo to flight instructors asking about flight students who were avoiding learning about landing procedures would have pinpointed at least one of the pilots in short order!

Still, sure, perhaps they could have gotten it to work. I allowed that was possible.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby Kreistor » Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:39 pm

[Edit: We're repeating ourselves, so i'm not responding to this subject any further. have the last word if you like.]

drachefly wrote:First off, the on-topic matters.

The failures of Stanley were Ruler-based - pursuing an overly aggressive foreign policy. That's his domain, so yes, the failures there are 100% his.


Except that's not entirely true. Wanda makes it abundantly clear that she was pressing him to pursue the Arkentool agenda. She knew he was pliable, and so could manipulate him to her plans. Had Wanda not been whispering in his ear, would he have followed the same path? If that answer is, "No," then you can't say it is entirely his fault.

Further, you don't know how those failures occurred. The one turning point that we know of, the death of Manpower, was not attributed to a failure of Stanley, but that the enemy had one more force than it should, and so was able to try a strategy that the local Chief Warlord was not prepared for... a flanking maneuver. Is Manpower's death Stanley's fault? Or his own, for failing to cover a flank?

So let's not jump to conclusions, here. We don't know at what level everything fell apart. There are many candidates for having made bad decisions, or given bad advice. Stnaley is, at some level, responsible, but others made mistakes, too, and that means he is not 100% responsible for everything.

~~~~~

All it would have taken to prevent the tactic from working would have been a highly public announcement that it was being attempted. That intel, we had.


NO YOU DID NOT. There was ONE report from ONE pilot trainer that ONE person was trying to learn how to fly a plane, but did not care how to land. It was UNCORROBORATED. And it DIED in the LOWEST levels of the FBI, without further investigation! It was one of thousands of reports about thousands of suspected terrorists submitted by thousands of paranoid Americans that see enemies in every schwarma shop, just because their skin is brown.

Before 9/11, there was only one SINGLE hostage situation where a few people suspected that a plane might have been intended to be used as a missile, but the actual discussions were about exploding it over a city. Air France 8969. The terrorists wanted fuel to fly from Marseilles to land in Duvalle, but afterwards, the passengers said the terrorists had discussed blowing the plane up over Paris instead of landing. I saw one speculate that since they ddn' actually have a bomb, that they might have flown it into the Eiffel Tower, but that was a post-9/11 interview.

There was one single report generated by the FBI terrorism division during the Clinton years that suggested someone might fly a plane into a building, and suggested the WTC's because of the '95 bombing, but again, that did not reach the Executive and was kept entirely in that division of the FBI. It was a product for the Clinton staff, not the Bush staff.

Moreover, we around that time acquired a valuable Al-Qaeda leader in custody in an allied country. After 9/11 when interrogating him was finally authorized, he revealed a considerable amount of intelligence (without a trace of torture, note), including the Al-Qaeda affiliation of the attackers. The particular tactic used in that case would not have worked, but others could have.


Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confessed after Waterboarding, which is considered torture and now banned by the USA.

Ramzi bin al-Shibh has never confessed.

The other possible plotter was Ramzi Yousef, who was conspiring to bomb a number of planes simultaneously in the mid-90's and participated in the first WTC bombing. He may have been the man to give Khalid the idea for 9/11, since they knew each other and Yousef was a much more grandiose plotter. But while he may have originated the idea, he took no part in the plans and was entirely unaware of the plot itself, since he was captured in '95.

What specific pressure could be applied? We had contacts with the Northern Alliance - remember them? - and they would have eagerly accepted military aid to fight the Taliban.


The "northern Alliance" is a loose collections of Warlords known more for ties to heroin than fighting for freedom. They were in direct conflict with the Taliban, who were trying to be the only military force and who hated heroin, but had this gotten out without 9/11 justification for working with these wretched men, Bush would have been vilified for working with organized criminals against a religiously profiled enemy that had never done anything to the US, and would have been prevented from that course by the War on Drugs. (The Northern Alliance was fighting to continue its drug trade, not for freedom.) The Taliban was not directly responsible for the actions of al-Qaeda, and the Warlords could not have gotten past the Taliban to get to al-Qaeda. In fact, for the Warlords, al-Qaeda meant nothing: it was only the Taliban they wanted rid of, and only in their own Northern region. The Northern Alliance refused to help free southern Afghanistan after 9/11 (which is how Karzai wound up in chrage), so the presumption that the NA would have fought al-Qaeda is entirely without foundation, even if they could get there past the Taliban forces..

Back in the US, simply sending out a memo to flight instructors asking about flight students who were avoiding learning about landing procedures would have pinpointed at least one of the pilots in short order!


Which requires foreknowledge that the US government did not have. As I have repeatedly stated, US Airline policy was based solely on the Hijackings that took planes to Cuba, not on attacks that had never happened. Policy was to give in to the hostage taking, and keep yourself alive through non-aggression and compliance. It was this policy of compliance that the terrorists used in order to execute their plot.

Still, sure, perhaps they could have gotten it to work. I allowed that was possible.


You have no evidence that anyone knew a hijacking, must less a crash into the WTC, was in the offing. Previous terrorist events of the type had always been hostage takings, or been intended to be sensationalistic bombings over a city, not the destruction of a building.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby drachefly » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:41 am

If the administration hadn't been burying its head in the sand, those individual reports could very easily have been dug up. That they weren't doesn't counterargue my point in the least; it supports it!
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby effataigus » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:39 am

The only bit of reading I've done from that era is from this guy's book:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_A._Clarke

He (a republican who has lived and breathed national security for most of his life) definitely blames Bush, Rumsfeld, and, well, everyone but Powell for a great deal of incompetence and hubris... and praises Clinton and Gore (though he mostly praises them for following his advice). Some might argue that he is just shifting the blame from himself... but I believe him.

That said, I can understand Bush ignoring of some of the counterterrorism warnings to a degree. Recall that there was a public perception that Clinton was using his counter-terrorism efforts (such as bombing Iraq) as a distraction from domestic anger over his indiscretions. I could imagine coming into that institution where all of the apparatuses of government still smell like the guy before you and being tempted to think "lets ignore these clowns and get a fresh start." Gore took an especially vehement role in advocating going after Bin Laden... which probably predisposed Bush to further ignore the threat seeing as how Bush had just emerged from a full year of trying to sell the case that Gore was an anti-business pro-environment nut-job. Give enough speeches on an idea and you'll start to believe it.

Of course, he took the mandate he got from 9/11 and used it to attack just about everything I love about my country, so my sympathy for him ends there.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby obscureinfo » Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:08 pm

Anybody know when the next comic will be up? It's been almost two weeks. :(
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