New Erf Rules Overhaul

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New Erf Rules Overhaul

Postby Twoy » Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:39 pm

On my vacation I spent many hours working an overhaul of the New Erf rules; however, I don't want to just post them without getting some feedback from some of the New Erf players and other Erf fans.

Firstly, I would like to point out some of the most egregious errors in our current New Erf rules. At the bottom of this page you will find links to the most recent set of rules.

1. Movement rates do not align with the comic at all. Casters in the rules have a move of 5, whereas we know that Jack has a move of 8. Special C units have a base move of 3 with the capability to add Fast for an extra 8 move. In new Erf the Special C equivalent Gwiffons have a move around 52.

2. Some specials are placed in the wrong category. For example Gummy needs to be moved to High Level and Toxin should be moved to complex.
b. For fabrication, we have had two different formulas: This will take the unit ((0.5+(1/n+1))*x)/3 turns or ((0.5+(1/n)/3)*x3 turns per stat point increase where n is the amount of units with the fabrication spec involved and x is the stat point increase granted by the item. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't both of those formulas allow a small team to create faqster than a large team?

3. Many, if not most, of the casters don't have any useful way to level. My thought was to give every caster some standard spells. Create Scroll, Create Magic Item and a damage-type spell.

4. Some of the spells are completely unbalanced: Chaostat: Add target unit's stats together and divide by four. Roll a die with that many sides four times. The results become the unit's stats permanently. 90 juice. That means your Ruler with Stats 10/8/8/5 on average rolls will have 16/16/16/16 after casting this spell. Cast it on him about five times and he will be a titan with stats at around 250 each. The spell Retcon Stat would allow you to make an invincible warlord in about 90 turns. Not completely overpowered, but...

One more example and this one is my personal favorite. I really wanted to abuse the spell but just did not get the chance in any of the partial games I played: Hurry Production: The caster can reduce the turns taken to pop a unit by paying schmuckers equal to the unit's upkeep times the number of turns to be subtracted. 40 Juice. Hurry production would allow you to pop a dragon (Special D) every turn for 2,500 shmuckers per turn or you could pop three per turn if your caster was level 4 and you had three level five cities.

I stil have to input all my hand written changes into the rules, but I plan to post them no later than Saturday.

These are the current New Erf rules that I took copies of with me on vacation.
General Rules:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fSP ... t?hl=en_US
Caster Rules:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1v5M ... t?hl=en_US
Spell Compendium:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Yzk ... t?hl=en_US

Here are the rules with my overhaul Version 0.37.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B6CKjN ... Y4NGViYjM3
*I have highlighted in yellow all of the changes.
*Areas highlighted in red are for extra discussion or areas that players familiar with the old rules should take special note.
Last edited by Twoy on Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:36 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: New Erf Rules Overhaul

Postby HerbieRai » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:16 pm

I've got a request for ya, to go along with the death of Atrimis combat.

striking first:
Combat is done in turns just like the game. One stack attacks the other, then the other strikes back. Who strikes first is determined by
highest leadership > range special > other. If there is a tie in the chart then it is a coin toss on who strikes first.

I would also like to recommend a change to the ranged special:
a unit with range gets higher chances of striking first (this is already described above) and instead of attacking the stack they are fighting, they may attack any enemy stack in their hex. The defending stack still gets all their normal defense bonuses.

If you want to follow the comic to the letter, then ranged units in a non ranged stack may still attack this other target, but if they do it is considered as 2 separate attacks for purposes of the combat score, where the non ranged units attack the opponent fighting them and the ranged units attack another.
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Re: New Erf Rules Overhaul

Postby maceman121 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:11 pm

I think you have some really good points here, and we have been talking over in newerf as well. Just to put my two cents in to your formalized points XD

1. Agreed, but we do not know if all casters have a move of 8 or not. Though I did notice that point as well, one of the reasons in the updated rules I created (I know you didn't have those with you, but I believe you did read them over) I gave the casters 4 points to work with. This would give the ability to have a side able to pop a caster with 8 movement. Unfortunately, we don't have all the stats for all the units from the comic, and the stats we have we do not know if they are base or modified in some way (such as with magic, sides arranging points in different ways such as rules allow, etc.), especially since Jack was a turned unit. Good point about Gwiffons, though I wonder if there is a way to do this so not all Special Cs have that high of a movement?

2.
a. Any reason you feel this way? I don't think it shows those in the comics enough to justify one way or another where those belong.
b. Saw that in those rules as well, that is why I changed it to ((0.5+(1/n+1))*n) points capable of being made a turn. Yes, a small team can do better, but than again, I worked with the diminishing returns as well, and the fact that a unit can have a stat modified only one time. So if you want a stat increased more than 1 point, you need to use more than 1 fabricator. Otherwise, without care, a player simply pops as many fabricators as they can and BAM, their whole side has units with stats around 20.

3. I like that idea. I myself didn't mess with the magic yet, or really the leveling system either.

4. Goes with 3. I think it is more along the lines of how many casters a side can reasonably have at any given time, as well as what level they are going to be at. 90 juice requires a higher level mage(hard in current system to level any mage), or many lower mages linked, something that is not likely to be all that common, but I can see where it can be abused. I think that is the problem most games have with magic. It becomes too powerful if focused on.

Good points though. I think what needs to be done is a few more games to test the rules, right now it is mostly people thinking from how they read it instead of seeing how it actually works (I am really at fault here myself).

One other thing that I think is really important, and that is how the game is being designed. I currently see two very distinct games coming into play, and I think that it might be a good idea to make them distinct. The games are "ErfWorld, the game BASED on the comic" and "Erfworld, the comic AS a game" What I mean here is simple. Some of the rules, like those I built up, use as much as Erfworld as we can, following along with the comic and only making some changes to have things flow smoother and make the game easier to play, especially over long distance. Others, and just as valuable, are those who are making a game using every rule they can find in the comic and forcing their game around the rules.

The reason I say I think they are two separate games, and should stay this way are because of the fact that I don't know if the second is actually possible. As noted before, the comic stated Jack has a move of 8, but as I point out above, we don't know WHY he has a movement 8. Is this a base for all casters, a special for him, magic? We don't know, and truth be told, I don't know if Rob even knows why. I venture to say, and I don't know if there is any evidence to the contrary, that Erfworld is not a solid world yet, and all the rules do not exist, but rather come into existence when it is needed for the plot. For example, can a caster be an heir? We don't know, and up until recently I doubt even Rob thought of wether or not it was possible. Movement for units, is it set in stone, or were they numbers that sounded good for the comic and so used? How does loyalty ACTUALLY work, and what are the numbers involved? Is loyalty a %, so max at 100, and if so is the average unit 50, 60, 90? How easy is it to turn a stabber verses a warlord? These are the things I think that make the game Based on, and the comic As a game so separate. The one based on can be made to suit the players and flow for the style of play without having to be updated all that often, while the one that is the comic as a game would need to be updated whenever the comic published a new 'rule' or changed an old one.

In the end, I think both are great, and would gladly play either. In truth, I really admire those working to create the comic as a game, because it is more work than I could possibly get myself to do, having to cross reference every comic so many times to ensure they are all 100% accurate. I think it will be a great game in the end, and would gladly play (looks great XD), but at least for me to work on creating, I would rather use Erfworld as a guideline (sticking close to it as I can) but not worry about every little detail, such as if a Gwiffon is a Special C or Special B, and what are some other Special B and Cs to compare them to?

On a side note, if Rob reads this and DOES have answers to any of these, or anyone else either, I would love to have them. And if Rob has his world fully built, knows all the rules and stats for all the units as they exist, that would REALLY make making a game far easier IMO.
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Re: New Erf Rules Overhaul

Postby LTDave » Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:51 pm

I can't imagine that Rob has a set of rules worked out for any of this stuff apart from a few strips ahead.

And as much as I like the idea of New Erf style game, I can't get past the complexity of the rules. I don't understand them, and I can't see how they'll work out in reality. If you can make it work, I'll be cheering and backing it all the way, but I can't see how it can be done.
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Re: New Erf Rules Overhaul

Postby Twoy » Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:11 pm

LTDave,
I've already played one game that lasted 52 turns. I think it can be done, but it will require some patience. The main thing that I am planning that should make it a bit simpler is to keep the tactical combat fairly simple. That means two armies meet. The attacker can walk away (assuming his units have move left) if it is clear he is going to lose, but that means a victory for the defenders. Defenders have no choice but to try and hold the hex. I'm not planning to let the players take turns trying for head shots on the warlords or let them maneuver. It's basically a straight up comparison of stacks. After the battle is over, the ruler will (perhaps) get a report of how the battle went.

Overhaul update: I corrected the first 5 pages of the 29 page rules on thursday. Today was my D&D group, but tommorrow I plan to do many, if not all, of the remaining pages.

Here's a bonus: All casters have the following spells.

Lesser Hadoken: +15 Attack, Ranged (15 Juice).

Hadoken: +22 Attack, Ranged (45 Juice).

Greater Hadoken: +30 Attack, Ranged (90 Juice).

Note to HerbieRai: The Hadoken spells can be used in a similiar manner to the Ranged Warlord. I also have added rules for ranged warlords. The problem is that they do not seem to be real effective. On the other hand, they have the possibility to be very effective if the ranged commander gets lucky.

Create Scroll: A caster may create a scroll for any spell in his discipline at a cost of two times the normal cost to cast the spell. The scroll may be created over multiple turns; however, the caster may do nothing else other than work on the scroll until the scroll is complete. Casters gain XP equal to 10 percent of the juice put into the production of the scroll. If a caster stops working on the scroll to cast a spell or if his stack attacks or is attacked, the scroll becomes nonfunctional; however, the caster keeps any XP gained from working on the scroll. All juice put into the scroll is lost. Create Scroll allows casters to cast spells that would normally be beyond their capability, but at double the juice cost.

Activate Scroll: Costs 10 percent of the juice normally required to cast the spell on the scroll. Casters activating a scroll from their own discipline have a 100 percent chance of success. Casters activating scrolls within their own class have a 5 in 6 chance of success. Casters activating scrolls outside their own class have a 4 in 6 chance of success. If an attempt to activate a scroll fails, roll a 1d6 representing 10-60 percent less effective. The GM chooses exactly how the spell is less effective, but the spell should be 10-60 percent less effective in all aspects of the spell. If a spell can only be successful or not successful, then the spell fails. Casters gain experience points equal to 10 percent of the juice they expended to activate the scroll.
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Re: New Erf Rules Overhaul

Postby Twoy » Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:07 pm

Create Magic Item: Each class of caster (except Dollamancers and those noted in their specific spell descriptions) has one type of magical item that they are able to create. When creating an item the caster can choose if the item increases Hits, Attack, Defense or Move. Units may use only one of each type of magical item. Only Special A, B, C, D, Knight-class Infantry and commanders may use magical items.

An item may be created over multiple rounds, but if the caster is interrupted for anything but eating or sleeping the item is complete and the caster may not continue adding juice to the item. If the caster is interrupted, the item will have a bonus equal to the amount of juice the caster put into the item before being interrupted. For example, If a caster put 300 juice into an item and was interrupted before putting the last 75 juice in to make the item a + 5 item, the item will have a + 4 bonus.

Caster and type of item they can create:
Spoiler: show
Findamancy Boots
Flower Power Necklace
Predictomancy Tarot Deck
Signamancy Shield
Mathemancy Bracers
Date-a-mancy Ring
Turnamancy Earring
Shockamancy Broach
Dollamancy All
Croakamancy Belt
Wierdomancy Nipple ring
Hat Magic Hat
Dirtamancy Breast Plate
Carnymancy Paldrons
Changeamancy Gauntlets
Rhyme-o-mancy Gorget
Dittomancy Greaves
Luckamancy Pair of Dice
Lookamancy Goggles
Healomancy Backpack
Thinkamancy Earbug
Moneymancy Token
Foolamancy Cloak
Retconjuration Arkentool

Juice cost to create an item:
Spoiler: show
Juice Cost Hits Attack Defense Move
15 2 1 1 2
60 3 2 2 4
135 5 3 3 6
240 6 4 4 8
375 8 5 5 10
540 9 6 6 12

For clarity, a 15 juice item will give either +2 Hits, +1 Attack, +1 Defense or +2 Move. It will not give a bonus to all four stats.
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Re: New Erf Rules Overhaul

Postby Kaed » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:16 pm

Man, I'm glad you people are working so hard on improving the original rules :)

I'd still like to play or DM sometime though, to see how it's working.
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Re: New Erf Rules Overhaul

Postby thetobias » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:38 am

Hey there,

I had some great plans for this. Unfortunately life decided to intervene and I had to cut a whole lot of projects short. Including a special secret bonus project I was working on with some RL friends.

First of: yes I'm back, probably still not as active as I'd hope, but I'll chime in and write stuff up every once in a while. I'll also gladly volunteer my spreadsheetwizarding skills to either create from scratch or test and debug sheets. (Hell, I know how complicated they can get ;) )

Second: I wanted to write this first and then have a look at the proposed changes, so I'll do that now, expect further post on the rules.

EDIT: Replies to first post:

1. Movement rates do not align with the comic at all. Casters in the rules have a move of 5, whereas we know that Jack has a move of 8. Special C units have a base move of 3 with the capability to add Fast for an extra 8 move. In new Erf the Special C equivalent Gwiffons have a move around 52.


Yeah, this one is a problem. I'll explain my reasoning behind it though. 1. this was mostly a legacy thing, I heavily used Kaeds rules to create the original system and 2. more importantly: you have only finite mapspace. I could technically create a script generating random terrain as you arrive on it, but this is horrible for actual accounting.

2. Some specials are placed in the wrong category. For example Gummy needs to be moved to High Level and Toxin should be moved to complex.
b. For fabrication, we have had two different formulas: This will take the unit ((0.5+(1/n+1))*x)/3 turns or ((0.5+(1/n)/3)*x3 turns per stat point increase where n is the amount of units with the fabrication spec involved and x is the stat point increase granted by the item. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't both of those formulas allow a small team to create faqster than a large team?


Iirc I put in/kept in this restriction to stop gamebreaking moves like filling up a city with thousands of crafters and then just oneturn crafting titanic artefacts (which is a no-no btw :ugeek: ). On specials having wrong categories, this is mostly because new specials were added not after lots and lots of thought, but after saying "you know what would be awesome?". Not the best way to plan this stuff I agree.

3. Many, if not most, of the casters don't have any useful way to level. My thought was to give every caster some standard spells. Create Scroll, Create Magic Item and a damage-type spell.


This is a good point, it'll incentivize players to risk their casters for quicker leveling. I like it.

4. Some of the spells are completely unbalanced: Chaostat: Add target unit's stats together and divide by four. Roll a die with that many sides four times. The results become the unit's stats permanently. 90 juice. That means your Ruler with Stats 10/8/8/5 on average rolls will have 16/16/16/16 after casting this spell. Cast it on him about five times and he will be a titan with stats at around 250 each. The spell Retcon Stat would allow you to make an invincible warlord in about 90 turns. Not completely overpowered, but...


Oh yes, this was one of the problems I had to contend with while creating the system: how to create awesome spells which have both an Erfworldian feel but wouldn't simply make Parson powergamergasm because of horrible unballancedness. This is going to need lots and lots of playtesting.


On this: I was going to completely scrap the Erfworld rules and this time build them up from scratch, not using anything from legacy, and slowly adding components on an as needed basis during play. Like I said sadly enough life intervened. I might start on that project now but I have a load of different stuff to handle. School, work, DM-ing a D&D campaign, oh and life, that's an important one.
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Re: New Erf Rules Overhaul

Postby Kaed » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:32 am

And this is kind of where our feelings diverge. I'm happy that people picked up the rules I put out and tried improving on them, but looking more closely there are a lot of things I do not like about what has been happening. Little things like Retconjuration being added in as a caster discipline, the oversimplfication of various elements I fleshed out rules for - like forests and mills. Some people wished to redo the capabilities of other caster types because they found them useless as far as players go. "We have calculators!" they cried, frowning at Mathamancers, then proceeded to try and edit in some nonsense about spacial folding. Sorry, but no. I gave things for Matamancers to do based on Parson's Bracer, and that is useful too, and actually makes sense.

This game system I created, and the entire project, was intended first and foremost to create as faithful a representation of Erfworld's 'rules' as I possibly could. It is a lofty goal admittedly, since we don't rightly know all of them in the first place. But it was intended to be a work in progress anyway.

You are welcome to create your own rules from scratch if you like, but I will keep my legacy and improve on it, clipping out the things that should not be in there and fixing what I can to keep the system faithful to its source material. Perhaps you should keep your 'New Erf' for your new system and I will go back to calling mine "Erfworld Game" or some such thing. I bear you no malice, but I don't really want to sacrifice my goal either.
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Re: New Erf Rules Overhaul

Postby Twoy » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:18 pm

To address points from both Kaed and Oberon: Lots of stuff was added in by lots of different people for good and for bad reasons. I just want to have a set of rules that are as close to Erfworld as possible, but still balanced.

Basically, if a dirtamancer is infinitely more powerful than a mathamancer, then we need to either nerf the dirtamancer or boost the mathamancer. By adding rules that allow all casters to create scrolls, magic items and do a significant amount of combat damage, I feel like I have balanced out some of the imbalance. And, if a player is unhappy with his mathamancer, then he can send him on combat missions 'til he cwoaks.

Edit: Just checked the current rules for a mathamancer. They really DO suck. On the other hand, you could use him as one part of a tri-mancer link, and when you're ready for the link to end, just have the thinkamancer direct all damage to the mathamancer. Voila! Problem solved. Maybe that's why we have never seen a live mathamancer in the comic.
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Re: New Erf Rules Overhaul

Postby Kaed » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:07 pm

Man, you people beat up too much on Mathamancers. Poor things get more abuse than they deserve! I'm sure PARSON would figure out a way to break the game with th- OH WAIT HAHAAHH.

Seriously though, I do like the idea of Universal spells, like haboken. I would imagine they are kind of a discipline-less spell, just raw juice turned into damage potential. It separates it from Shockamancy.
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Re: New Erf Rules Overhaul

Postby Cnor » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:02 pm

(Note: I freely admit that I may have missed something in my reading.)

So, do you start with a city? I'm not seeing anything about it. If so, what level is it? If not, how do you get the shmuckers to build one?

[quote=Rules]Simple mancy - (6) Grants the unit the ability to cast from a discipline as a level 1 caster. Units with this special gain 5% of their expended juice as experience. These units get 30 juice per time they take the simple mancy special. This special can be taken multiple times each time allowing the unit another discipline. If the unit takes this special multiple times a random mancy will manifest at every level.[/quote]

I'm guessing that this means that the first time they take it, they choose a mancy,and a discipline,and then if they take another level, they can choose another discipline, and gain a random mancy. So if a unit took Simple Mancy, and chose Spookism: Dollamancy, then took another level, they could choose, Turn or Weirdamancy, and might roll, for example, Stuffamancy, correct? Or is it that if they take it a second time they choose another discipline, and every time the unit levels after that, they gain a random Mancy?
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Re: New Erf Rules Overhaul

Postby Kaed » Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:39 pm

Cnor wrote:(Note: I freely admit that I may have missed something in my reading.)

So, do you start with a city? I'm not seeing anything about it. If so, what level is it? If not, how do you get the shmuckers to build one?

Rules wrote:Simple mancy - (6) Grants the unit the ability to cast from a discipline as a level 1 caster. Units with this special gain 5% of their expended juice as experience. These units get 30 juice per time they take the simple mancy special. This special can be taken multiple times each time allowing the unit another discipline. If the unit takes this special multiple times a random mancy will manifest at every level.


I'm guessing that this means that the first time they take it, they choose a mancy,and a discipline,and then if they take another level, they can choose another discipline, and gain a random mancy. So if a unit took Simple Mancy, and chose Spookism: Dollamancy, then took another level, they could choose, Turn or Weirdamancy, and might roll, for example, Stuffamancy, correct? Or is it that if they take it a second time they choose another discipline, and every time the unit levels after that, they gain a random Mancy?


I shall answer your questions in turn!

You begin play with a single level 1 city, which provides you with 600 schmuckers a turn, and can pop basic infantry (pikers and stabbers), scouts, and warlords. You may gain additional money by establishing a resource gathering structure on a hex within a certain distance of your city. Higher city level means more such things, and longer build range.

For the simple mancy thing, it means this - You may allow your unit to have a form of Mancy from any of the available ones, but if you pick more than one, the unit does not get to choose which one it starts out with, or what it gains as it levels, the specials are randomly assigned from among the ones it it allowed to get via your payment of points.
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Re: New Erf Rules Overhaul

Postby Cnor » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:46 pm

That makes sense.

So, just to make sure that I'm not reading the clarification wrong: if the unit took Dollamancy and Thinkamancy, then it would be a 50/50 shot at which they'd get each time they leveled, and whether they began as Thinkamancers or Dollamancers?
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Re: New Erf Rules Overhaul

Postby Kaed » Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:51 pm

Cnor wrote:That makes sense.

So, just to make sure that I'm not reading the clarification wrong: if the unit took Dollamancy and Thinkamancy, then it would be a 50/50 shot at which they'd get each time they leveled, and whether they began as Thinkamancers or Dollamancers?


Exactly! Though in that case there are only two choices so whatever they got first, they would get the other when the levelled.
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Re: New Erf Rules Overhaul

Postby Cnor » Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:46 pm

So, one can't get the same one twice in a row if you only have two to pick from? Interesting.
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Re: New Erf Rules Overhaul

Postby Kaed » Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:11 pm

Well no. It's limited mancy, they can't level it up or stack it on itself for more powah. Only proper casters can do that.
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Re: New Erf Rules Overhaul

Postby Twoy » Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:02 am

Two alternative ways to start the game. Slow start was the way we used for a recent test. Fast start is how I plan to run the game I'm plannin in the next month or so.

Slow Start: Your side begins with only a Ruler unit (10/8/8/10; rider, leadership) and a purse of $10k.

Fast Start: Your side begins with 1 Ruler, 1 Heir, 1 Caster, 1 Warlord, 3 scouts, 100,000 Shmuckers, and a view of the map 10 hexes out from a randomly selected hex. Players may place units anywhere within the identified starting area and divide the treasury however they want among the starting commander units.
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Re: New Erf Rules Overhaul

Postby Twoy » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:43 pm

See 1st post for rules
*I have highlighted in yellow all of the changes.
*Areas highlighted in red are for extra discussion or areas that players familiar with the old rules should take special note.

Areas that are not yet covered in the rules are:
1. Contracts. (done)
2. Loyalty system.
3. Sacking a city. (done)
4. Razing a city. (done)
5. Turn order.
6. Natural allies
Last edited by Twoy on Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: New Erf Rules Overhaul

Postby Twoy » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:43 pm

Sacking/Razing a City:
A side that is in control of a city with an allied warlord present and with no enemy units present may choose to raze the city, reducing it to level 0 so that it no longer functions as a city. The side doing the razing gains an immediate increase in their Capital treasury based on the size of the City. The warlord who razes the city takes immediate control of the city's treasury. The resulting site is similar to ruins. A side in control of a city may also choose to partially raze or sack a city. A city droppping from Level 5 to Level 4 grants 40K Shmuckers, etc. to the side's Capital treasury.

City Level=Treasury Increase
1=5K Shmuckers
2=10K
3=20K
4=40k
5=80k
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