Balerion wrote:Kreistor wrote:Ossomer is magically influenced, and not an example of Free Will. The magic could come from Croakamancy, but that would not permit any Turning. Since Ossomer does Turn, then the enslavement comes from Wanda's capacity for Thinkamancy, not Croakamancy. This has many repercussions for Decryption, but that is a different conversation.
Who cares what school it comes from?
Those that analyze the Arkentools, for one. Are their powers constant (ie. they have a set of powers that never change, regardless of who attunes) or relative (ie. somehow created in response to the will of the attuned user)? If the Arkenpliers merely amplifies Wanda's powers, then they would only create Decrypted in her hands. In another attuned user's hands, like say Ace, they might create legions of Power Armor for the troops.
Magic in Erfworld still is taking effect by physical manifestations of some kind. So regardless of the school, its effecting the loyalty stat would be my claim. And since that requires a lot less invention of new ways of magic working (ie how to make someone loyal to you and not turn), I think its a good assumption. And the first part of that statement? exactly what we are arguing about. My contention is that free will and magical influence (which is basically what the hidden stats are anyway) can coexist just fine. One is in control or the other; either the loyalty stat means you can't turn no matter how much you want to, or you get to make the choice. Which is in control fluctuates, and can be altered; and when the magic dominates, free will doesn't exist. But which rules is dependent on die rolls.
And how do you propose proving it? Like I said repeatedly: you can invent mathematical representations of anything, especially with limited data. In fact, that's a great part of science... coming up with mathematical models to simulate observed data... but that you can reduce some aspects of observed behavior to a set of rules does not prove that you discovered Rules behind the universe.
And that is why those that turn can be looked down on; they did not turn because they failed a roll. They turned because when they were given a moment of true free will, when the loyalty check failed, they used it to betray their side.
Can you prove it? Can Erfworlders? You have a proposal that may fit all data points, but is that proof enough to vilify someone so much that you ostracize them? Are you that certain that you're right?
That cultist example is a really poor analogy. Ossomer was not slowly brought out of brainwashing. He, in the space of seconds, went from "I can't turn" to turned. Because a person vanished from his hex. There is no comparison between the situations. I am going to keep pounding that line "I can't" as indicative of what his will wanted; something inhibited him from acting on what his will had decided.
I actually challenge you to find a real world example that functions the way i have described the loyalty stat.
Nothing starts and stops instantly in our universe: it's part of our reality. That is only possible in fiction or bad non-fiction. The closest you can get is the comedown from something like a mind-altering drug. Some can quit fairly quickly.
physics can tell me I can't read comics at work cause it decided i was too loyal to my boss if it was Erfworld physics. I don't get a chance to make a choice unless I fail that loyalty check; then free will is all mine, and I can read all the comics I want, if that is the decision I make.
Yeah, look up some of the date rape drugs. The whole point to them is to get you to do things you normally wouldn't, and then make you forget having done it. Quite insidious. Those leave the parallel of Loyalty, though, so I still prefer the brain washing example, despite that it doesn't act like a light switch when coming out of it, leaving aftereffects of bad judgement for decades.