Book 2 – Page 74

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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby happyturtle » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:43 am

The defender of a city can also attack across zones even off turn.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -06-09.jpg
"Archers and city ballistic engines can shoot across hex boundaries on their turn. But when it's not their turn they can only shoot enemy units in the same hex (or city zone if their side doesn't own the city), or as defense when your city is being attacked."

Even if it wasn't Jetstone's turn, they'd still get to use their archers to defend their city. They also don't have to worry about zone boundaries, for either attacking or movement. If you recall Wanda and Sizemore were booping around all over the place during the GK battle, when it was Ansom's turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Kreistor » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:50 am

effataigus wrote:Happy is correct here. Courtyard/Tower/Dungeons are all one zone. Airspace is a separate zone. City Walls compose another zone. Tunnels would be a final zone, but there are none here. Jetstone is on turn and therefore can attack across zone boundaries (as they have been... e.g. tower to airspace). GK is off turn and therefore cannot attack or move across zone boundaries (except when forced to by gravity).


Klog 13 wrote:Garrison Zone has 3 parts: Tower, Courtyard, and Dungeon. For purposes of attack, Tower borders Airspace, courtyard borders outer walls, dungeon borders Tunnels. Enemy units from outer walls must attack Courtyard first, airspace can't attack dungeon, etc. Once units are in the garrison, they can attack any other part of the garrison.


Sorry, but I find that to be very clear. You can't attack any part of the Garrison except the one associated to your Zone. Airspace simply cannot attack Courtyard, no matter that it makes absolutely no sense.

Recall that it doesn't matter who is attacking and defending (or whether they are doing an action, using your words from several posts before, for the purposes of assault)... it only matters who is on turn. Not Kansas indeed.


Yes, that does explain why some dwagons couldn't participate in a theeoretical attack on the Tower (according to Trammenis, only yellows could attack Tower), but that is merely a second rule that explains the inability to attack the Atrium in Courtyard: they never could attack Courtyard from Atrium, on or off turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby happyturtle » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:05 pm

Attack =/= Defense
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby anaxx » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:33 pm

This splash page reminds me of a spread from Fables for some reason. Looks great!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby drachefly » Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:02 pm

ANYway, Kriestor's point that the JS archers could get up close and comfortable with Dwagons unable to retaliate is valid, unless Dwagons' breath attacks are equivalent to an archery special in that they can always attack airspace.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Kreistor » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:18 pm

drachefly wrote:ANYway, Kriestor's point that the JS archers could get up close and comfortable with Dwagons unable to retaliate is valid, unless Dwagons' breath attacks are equivalent to an archery special in that they can always attack airspace.


Where does it say the Archery special hits Airspace? I found reference to Garrison being able to hit airspace, but that's in a prior Klog to the one that separates Garrison into three zones, so probably means only Tower.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:49 pm

Are we discussing whether Archers can attack Dwagons in the courtyard? Because it looks like the page happyturtle mentioned clears that up; answer yes, on account of Jetstone defending their city while being on-turn, and as such hex/zone limitations on Jetstone Archers do not apply. And while Klog 13 offers a list of what borders what, there's a (slim) chance the listing is not exhaustive.

Heck, if shooting bows somehow didn't work, the archers could still just drop the arrows. It worked for poop, as has been pointed out. So technically they can attack, whether or not the bows themselves work.

Are we discussing whether the Dwagons can retaliate against the Archers? That one looks like a no, on account of breath weapons being stopped by hex/zone boundaries while the unit with said breath weapons is off-turn.

teratorn wrote:I'm not sure Jetstone can win but things can get so bad that Parson decides not to risk the only warlord with decent bonus he has (Sylvia) and the archons escaping the attack from the tower. He may order Sylvia to join Antium's forces and abandon the dwagons. We can get a sort of stalemate, Ossomer having secured his father survival won't risk dying for it would be bad for his side, Parson trying to cut his losses.


Hah, indeedy, at this moment the highest known to us level among GK's warlords is Sylvia's; we don't know (I think) what level Capt. Archer is, do we have info on Duke Antium and that other dude?

My guess (all it is) is that Spacerock can well remain in Jetstone hands, depending on how many units survive the Tower collapse (CINDY! CINDY!), and how dumbstruck Wanda will be for the near future. Getting GK warlords out of that place, even with Dwagons that are on-turn, may be a rocky journey.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Kreistor » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:46 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Are we discussing whether Archers can attack Dwagons in the courtyard? Because it looks like the page happyturtle mentioned clears that up; answer yes, on account of Jetstone defending their city while being on-turn, and as such hex/zone limitations on Jetstone Archers do not apply. And while Klog 13 offers a list of what borders what, there's a (slim) chance the listing is not exhaustive.


What I'm saying is that there is no Zone connection between Airspace and Courtyard for anyone attacking, even if they have possession of the city. The word used is "attack" from "airspace" not "attack" against "defenders that own the city". I accept that when Archers that possess the city are on Tower, they could hit Airspace off-turn. I simply feel there is a solid wall preventing all attacks from Airspace to Courtyard in all instances. The only exception being the "dropping" rules, which the Yellows possess with their "breath" weapons..

Heck, if shooting bows somehow didn't work, the archers could still just drop the arrows. It worked for poop, as has been pointed out. So technically they can attack, whether or not the bows themselves work.


Depends on whether Rob watches Mythbusters. Dropped Arrows wouldn't move fast enough to penetrate any type of armor, so it would just be wasting ammo. (Arrows fired from a bow are many times faster than their dropped terminal velocity.)

Are we discussing whether the Dwagons can retaliate against the Archers? That one looks like a no, on account of breath weapons being stopped by hex/zone boundaries while the unit with said breath weapons is off-turn.


I'm not. But, no, if you believe the Archers on unipegataurs could attack Courtyard, then no, the dwagons could not retaliate.

Hah, indeedy, at this moment the highest known to us level among GK's warlords is Sylvia's; we don't know (I think) what level Capt. Archer is, do we have info on Duke Antium and that other dude?


You look at chain of command. Archer obeys Sylvia, so her Leadership is higher. Antium leads teh attack on Atrium, so I'm guessing he's not insignificant.

My guess (all it is) is that Spacerock can well remain in Jetstone hands, depending on how many units survive the Tower collapse (CINDY! CINDY!), and how dumbstruck Wanda will be for the near future. Getting GK warlords out of that place, even with Dwagons that are on-turn, may be a rocky journey.
[/quote]

Wanda being dragged semi-conscious into Spacerock restores the Leadership and Artifact bonuses. But I'm betting she doesn't suffer backlasah from Ossomer's Turning. I can't see the Pliers allowing her to suffer that damage.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby drachefly » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:28 pm

Agreed on no backlash.

I think we have no evidence on whether ground archery attackers can hit defending units in airspace. Airspace is not one of the garrison zones - only one of the zones you can attack the garrison from, so I'd suspect it's unrestricted.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Kreistor » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:45 pm

drachefly wrote:Agreed on no backlash.

I think we have no evidence on whether ground archery attackers can hit defending units in airspace. Airspace is not one of the garrison zones - only one of the zones you can attack the garrison from, so I'd suspect it's unrestricted.


PLease re-read my quote from Klog 13. Tower borders Airspace. Courtyard borders Outer Walls. No, ground attackers cannot attack Airspace from Courtyard.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby MarbitChow » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:03 pm

Kreistor wrote:Wanda being dragged semi-conscious into Spacerock restores the Leadership and Artifact bonuses. But I'm betting she doesn't suffer backlasah from Ossomer's Turning. I can't see the Pliers allowing her to suffer that damage.

If the 'Pliers place a suggestion-like spell on the Decrypted, then there could certainly be a backlash. The 'Tools grant amazing powers, but they still have limitations. (For example, why can Stanley levitate, but not fly?)
That being said, I agree with you that she won't suffer a magical backlash (although I won't rule out a personal emotional baggage backlash) because I don't think they place a suggestion-like spell that can be dispelled. I think that extremely high loyalty is an 'attribute' of being Decrypted, and Ossomer simply had enough reasons against loyalty plus personal willpower to overcome the 'attribute'.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Kreistor » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:10 pm

CORRECTION. I found the evidence we needed.

http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE004_StanleyWanda_700.jpg

There is one more case where someone entered Airspace, and it was Stanley and his dwagons. They arrived and landed in Courtyard, without bouncing off Tower first.

That means I was wrong, and sorry for the confusion. For the owners of a city, Airspace does border Courtyard, the mounted Archers could attack Courtyard with impunity, and not be attacked back.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby drachefly » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:32 pm

We still don't know they can't be attacked back. We know that garrison zones can't be attacked from outside the garrison respectively off-turn, and it looks like they can't get out into the city either, but airspace is not a garrison zone for sure, and it may not be a city zone. Dwagons' bwe-- breath weapons are ranged, so they may be able to target air from the ground.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Kreistor » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:40 pm

drachefly wrote:We still don't know they can't be attacked back. We know that garrison zones can't be attacked from outside the garrison respectively off-turn, and it looks like they can't get out into the city either, but airspace is not a garrison zone for sure, and it may not be a city zone. Dwagons' bwe-- breath weapons are ranged, so they may be able to target air from the ground.


Uhm... what? Airspace is specifically stated in Klog 11 to be one of the four City Zones -- Outer Walls, Airspace, Tunnels, and Garrison.

Klog 13 makes absolutely no sense, if Courtyard can attack Airspace. The only way to interpret this where all statements make sense is if Klog 13 is referring to "attackers" being "anyone that is attacking the city's defenders". You're trying to take each statement on its own and make them make sense individually, instead of looking at all of them under the assumption that all must be, in some interpretation, true.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby teratorn » Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:36 am

On the one hand, dwagons lost Wanda's bonus and they can at most get Sylvia's bonus. On the other hand archers will get Ossomer's in hex bonus (assuming Slately declares him overlord), plus Ossomer's stacking bonus, and can attack with near impunity.

Parson saved his side by recovering Wanda and the pliers but he risks losing a buttload of dwagons and the means to replenish their ranks (the archons). Risking so many (all?) of their most useful units (archons) in this attack was definitely moronic.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Kreistor » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:27 am

teratorn wrote:On the one hand, dwagons lost Wanda's bonus and they can at most get Sylvia's bonus. On the other hand archers will get Ossomer's in hex bonus (assuming Slately declares him overlord), plus Ossomer's stacking bonus, and can attack with near impunity.


Not sure how they could get Sylvia's bonus. Can't stack with units in another Zone.

Parson saved his side by recovering Wanda and the pliers but he risks losing a buttload of dwagons and the means to replenish their ranks (the archons). Risking so many (all?) of their most useful units (archons) in this attack was definitely moronic.


Parson didn't order Wanda through the Portal. Wanda came through on her own. Parson understood the importance of her bonuses remaining in Spacerock, after all, so he wanted her staying there.

Parson was also not responsible for the plan to use Air to capture Spacerock. That was Ansom. Parson evidenced strong suspicions at the start of Book 2. We don't know how Parson would have approached the problem.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Jorgath » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:57 am

Kreistor wrote:
drachefly wrote:ANYway, Kriestor's point that the JS archers could get up close and comfortable with Dwagons unable to retaliate is valid, unless Dwagons' breath attacks are equivalent to an archery special in that they can always attack airspace.


Where does it say the Archery special hits Airspace? I found reference to Garrison being able to hit airspace, but that's in a prior Klog to the one that separates Garrison into three zones, so probably means only Tower.



Oh, that's easy. Although it never says outright that it applies to a city, back in book 1 the Marbit crossbows shot the dwagons taking out the RCC siege, pre-doughnut.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Kreistor » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:38 pm

Jorgath wrote:
Kreistor wrote:
drachefly wrote:ANYway, Kriestor's point that the JS archers could get up close and comfortable with Dwagons unable to retaliate is valid, unless Dwagons' breath attacks are equivalent to an archery special in that they can always attack airspace.


Where does it say the Archery special hits Airspace? I found reference to Garrison being able to hit airspace, but that's in a prior Klog to the one that separates Garrison into three zones, so probably means only Tower.



Oh, that's easy. Although it never says outright that it applies to a city, back in book 1 the Marbit crossbows shot the dwagons taking out the RCC siege, pre-doughnut.


That was not in City, so it's neither Airspace nor Garrison.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby drachefly » Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:15 pm

Well, look. The prohibitions seem awfully specific.
On-turn, anyone can go anywhere.
Off-turn, defenders can go and attack anywhere (Wanda's tower defenses at Jillian's flyers, Wanda flies tower to air)
Off-turn, attackers can go from airspace 'above the tower' to airspace 'above the walls'
Off-turn, attackers can even go and attack one garrison zone from another garrison zone (Spacerock dungeons).

So what's actually prohibited?
Off-turn, attackers can't attack into the garrison from outside it.

This is the only prohibited action we know of. We do not have evidence one way or another about garrison to air, since no off-turn attackers would have wanted to try that anyway. We do not have evidence one way or another about garrison to city for the same reason. Given how few other restrictions there are, we can't just conclude that there is such a restriction.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:22 pm

In the Archon text update, the archons talk about distracting the archers on the ramparts, and worry about what to do when the volleys start flying. Since they can tell that the tower is coming down, this seems to imply that the archers on the wall can attack them. Not definitive, but might be worth factoring into your arguments.
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