Book 2 – Page 74

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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:53 pm

teratorn wrote:Parson saved his side by recovering Wanda and the pliers but he risks losing a buttload of dwagons and the means to replenish their ranks (the archons). Risking so many (all?) of their most useful units (archons) in this attack was definitely moronic.


It's not Hamster's fault that Wanda keeps acting outside his orders, from leting Jillian live to have ordered the tower attack.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:23 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:
teratorn wrote:Parson saved his side by recovering Wanda and the pliers but he risks losing a buttload of dwagons and the means to replenish their ranks (the archons). Risking so many (all?) of their most useful units (archons) in this attack was definitely moronic.


It's not Hamster's fault that Wanda keeps acting outside his orders, from leting Jillian live to have ordered the tower attack.


There has been some Idiot Ball carrying from GK's side, yes, but arguably not quite in the ways either of you indicate.

Firstly, as far as Parson was concerned way back when, the Dwagons and the Archons were ordered over Spacerock while it was GK's turn, after what had been a wonderful trick which left most of the Jetstone troops out of the city. With the data GK had when that plan was cooked up, it was a good plan.

Oops, Jillian was also there. Ok, nobody was expecting a certain spell, so in itself that wasn't moronic from GK. Wanda letting Jillian go easily was not, maybe, tactically optimal, however.

Ok, to get out of that bind, there was the harvesting trick. Here Parson decides to be tactically suboptimal, in that he wants to go to the front lines for very little tactical benefit, if any. Meanwhile, Wanda orders the tower attacked by the Siege-capable Dwagons- which was a good idea, as it used the available units in the best way possible at the time and offered a chance to end the battle. Some further blunders occurred here when Wanda forgot about Parson's OTP with the Portal.

Finally, Jack and Wanda go to the MK, in what was arguably not a good move.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby sleepymancer » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:26 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:
teratorn wrote:Parson saved his side by recovering Wanda and the pliers but he risks losing a buttload of dwagons and the means to replenish their ranks (the archons). Risking so many (all?) of their most useful units (archons) in this attack was definitely moronic.


It's not Hamster's fault that Wanda keeps acting outside his orders, from leting Jillian live to have ordered the tower attack.


Well, it sort of is Hamster's fault - Book 1, P. 74, panel 2 alludes to why (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F076.jpg).

Not that I'm recommending this, not that I'm sure that Wanda wouldn't just enjoy it, not that Parson could really do this and be Parson

:D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby happyturtle » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:59 pm

Got to remember though, Parson isn't responsible for anything that happened before the Kingworld spell/ Ansom's capture. That's all on Ansom (the battle plan) and Wanda (leaving Ansom behind, splitting forces, parleying with Jillian).

Parson might be carrying the Idiot Ball for his insistence on going to the battle, but it's hard to say without knowing what he might do when (if?) he makes it there.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:26 pm

happyturtle wrote:Parson might be carrying the Idiot Ball for his insistence on going to the battle, but it's hard to say without knowing what he might do when (if?) he makes it there.

'Carrying the idiot ball' requires that the individual be acting out-of-character, not just doing something stupid.
Parson refusing to order units into a battle that he himself isn't at risk in may not be wise, or tactically sound, but it is definitely NOT out-of-character.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Housellama » Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:28 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
happyturtle wrote:Parson might be carrying the Idiot Ball for his insistence on going to the battle, but it's hard to say without knowing what he might do when (if?) he makes it there.

'Carrying the idiot ball' requires that the individual be acting out-of-character, not just doing something stupid.
Parson refusing to order units into a battle that he himself isn't at risk in may not be wise, or tactically sound, but it is definitely NOT out-of-character.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall


I'm not sure I agree that Parson's decision to be at the battle is completely tactically unsound. Let's face it, if Parson had actually BEEN there, a lot of stupid decisions might not have been made. As for example, most of Wanda's boop-ups before Kingworld. Nothing beats on-site tactical command. He may be safer remote, but you can only do so much through remote communications. Sometimes you just HAVE to be there to understand the developing and changing situation. Maybe some of Parson's reasons aren't the best, but I don't think his decision is entirely wrong. When you're commanding troops, sometimes you have to actually COMMAND the troops. Otherwise things go haywire. We have a case in point right here.

So yeah. Maybe Parson has a bad case of Morals. But he's also clever enough to understand that there's nothing like real time, first person intelligence for a general to keep track of a quickly developing situation. Give him SOME credit, folks. Parson hasn't made many straight up BAD decisions that we've seen ever. Some of them have questionable elements, and this one is one of those, but it's definitely got an upside too.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby happyturtle » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:45 pm

Oh I agree... being there is better than not being there, but getting there cost a lot of battle time and energy that could have been used finishing off the city. If Wanda had stayed with the siege, her bonus would have brought the tower and ended Jetstone as a side before Ossomer could turn.

On the other hand, he didn't have any other way to get to the front at all, since he can't use dwagon relay. Marching cross country to rendezvous with the surviving army after the battle would take many turns.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Sieggy » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:26 pm

Please remember that until Maggie 'suggested' that Stanley order Parson to take command (and then go have a snack), Parson was more than willing to sit back and armchair general. And he was doing fine up until Wanda cocked up by not going in with all Dwagons blazing and slag the tower as instructed. At that point, it all went to hell, and their CWL was taken captive. Then Parson got put on the spot.

He went from being a 'player', who could sit back, run simulations, give advice (though not being CWL, he could only give advice which Wanda valued more highly than Ansom's), and remain apart from the reality of his actions. He was moving pieces, others were taking the responsibility for life & death. However, when he got put on the spot, all his 'player' rationalizations fell apart. He knew that trying to armchair general was fine in theory, but now it at his direct personal command that 'units' live and die. He was facing an ethical and moral reality that he had been able to avoid until then. And that the tactical situation demanded a commander in the field, not an armchair player.

So he promoted himself, armed himself with all the goodies he could carry, arranged for transit, and then off he went . . . or so he thought. From his POV, his decision was perfectly rational; he was finally taking personal responsibility for the lives of his troops as a true battlefield commander. One who had yet to face battle, and know whether or not he had it within him to lead . . . until then, he's been a player, untested in the fires of war. If he's going to be a warlord in fact, he has to know that he's up to the job. And he won't know until he knows . . .

This is an admirable quality, though perhaps uncommon on Erf, where units are . . . well, units. In short, he was being an adult human, and taking responsibility for perhaps the first time in his life. As he grows and changes into the truly perfect warlord, leavens his cleverness with wisdom and compassion, then he will be worthy to war so terribly be breaks war itself.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby happyturtle » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:22 pm

Oh yes, I don't blame his choice from a moral point of view. Just from a tactical one, in relationship to that one specific battle. And anyway, if every character made the most optimum choice, it would be boring to read. Wanda is always going to boop things up because of her insanity and Fatalism. Jillian is going to boop things up because she makes all her decisions from the heart, despite having a Queendom to be responsible for. Parson is going to boop things up because he's got non Erf values. And Stanley is going to boop things up because he's Stanley.

It's all good fun. :D I love this comic so hard. Definitely my favourite one, by a wide margin.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Kreistor » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:07 am

Personally, I feel Parson's entry into combat as one of abandoning his position as a Player.

PLayers don't enter the game and risk themselves. They stand back and give orders. They look down from above and demand absolute obedience.

But, he isn't. He's choosing to act like a real Chief Warlord. Ah, well. If he does, then yes, it is absolutely the right decision to join the battle. Just for the purposes of raising his own bonus. He has some problems to overcome. He can't use the dwagon trick to get back, so he is either going to be walking, or he needs to fabricate a chariot/cart of some sort.He needs to figure out his own Move.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby teratorn » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:39 am

Kreistor wrote:Personally, I feel Parson's entry into combat as one of abandoning his position as a Player.


I agree.

Parson's action wasn't completely idiotic, but he should have anticipated his effect on Wanda and Jack. Once they found out he was having trouble in the MK they forgot everything about the battle (including something as basic as undecrypted bonus) and rushed to his side. Wanda is tough and not caring and all of that but she'll risk everything for Parson.

Things will get more interesting from Parson's perspective. He lost his highest-level warlord, risks losing a buttload of dwagons and the means to replenish their ranks, a relatively large ground army. He probably won't be able to crush enemies by sheer numbers anymore.

There is a big unknown to deal with it: Trammenis.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Kreistor » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:19 am

teratorn wrote:Things will get more interesting from Parson's perspective. He lost his highest-level warlord, risks losing a buttload of dwagons and the means to replenish their ranks, a relatively large ground army. He probably won't be able to crush enemies by sheer numbers anymore.


I would never have okayed the use of Archons for this assault, when they're churning out 2-3 dwagons per turn. Charlie makes 1 Archon per turn. Stanley was making 2-3 dwagons. It takes several turns to create a dwagon with GK, so those 15 Archons were acting as 9 or more cities.That is just far too powerful to risk on this effort. Just wait a couple turns and crank out more dwagons to replace them on the line.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:57 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:There has been some Idiot Ball carrying from GK's side, yes, but arguably not quite in the ways either of you indicate.

Firstly, as far as Parson was concerned way back when, the Dwagons and the Archons were ordered over Spacerock while it was GK's turn, after what had been a wonderful trick which left most of the Jetstone troops out of the city. With the data GK had when that plan was cooked up, it was a good plan.

Oops, Jillian was also there. Ok, nobody was expecting a certain spell, so in itself that wasn't moronic from GK. Wanda letting Jillian go easily was not, maybe, tactically optimal, however.

Ok, to get out of that bind, there was the harvesting trick. Here Parson decides to be tactically suboptimal, in that he wants to go to the front lines for very little tactical benefit, if any. Meanwhile, Wanda orders the tower attacked by the Siege-capable Dwagons- which was a good idea, as it used the available units in the best way possible at the time and offered a chance to end the battle. Some further blunders occurred here when Wanda forgot about Parson's OTP with the Portal.

Finally, Jack and Wanda go to the MK, in what was arguably not a good move.


Ok, let me ask you, between Wanda and Hamster and the other warlords, who's the tactical genius again? And who has the super probability bracer?

I'm not saying Wanda is an horrible commander, but she's still a psycho fanatic witch whitout much experience on actually leading troops besides trying to copy Hamster's tricks and decrypted steamroll.

When you have a supreme warlord, with an artifact that can calculate the future, and a thinkmancer to go with it, you should really ask for his advice in such delicate situations as fighting an heavily defended enemy capital.

Doubly so when said capital had an "unknown mancer". Wanda above everyone should know how hax a mancer can be when given time to set up. Hamster told her the most optimal solution would just be to burn everything to a crisp and call it a day, and she goes and starts parleys and then sits there as a perfect target for tower spells.

Triple so when you've forced to crash land and the supreme warlord that devised the plan to save your ass tells you to hold untill he gets there. You do not then engage in destroying the portal trough which your supreme warlord intends to come from!

On Hamster going to the frontlines himself:
I really don't see it as bad as most other people are puting it. There's lots of stuff to gain from it:
-Real time intellegence. On the battle for GK Hamster had the tri-mancer link to give him a perfect vision of the battlefield. Now Misty's thinkmancy can go only so far as to tell him what's going on.
Unlike a game player, Hamster can't see the battle with his own eyes from the capital. By being on the tick of the action, Hamster can react faster and more efficiently to the enemy actions. Really this is critical. Wars are won and lost on the commanders geting better and faster intellegence from the battlefield.

-Chief Warlord Bonus. Even if not that big, stacking multipliers is what's Erfworld combat is all about. Hamster makes his troops fight better just for being there.

-Sweet delicious exp. Hamster could really use some levels. Who knows, as a special unit, he may even unlock new hax abilities like "MK travel"!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby raphfrk » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:20 am

Kreistor wrote:Parson can't ride dwagons, since he counts as a HEavy unit.


Actually, presumably, so are Jack and Wanda now ... if it isn't reversible, then that has some pretty long term consequences.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Kreistor » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:30 am

raphfrk wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Parson can't ride dwagons, since he counts as a HEavy unit.


Actually, presumably, so are Jack and Wanda now ... if it isn't reversible, then that has some pretty long term consequences.


Jack and Wanda aren't Heavy units. The Hobgobwins are. Jack and Wanda turned their mounts into shish kebabs in order to fall. By turning the hobgobs into Heavies, some of the dewagons might have survived the fall to the Atrium and be useful just that much longer.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby raphfrk » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:09 am

Kreistor wrote:Jack and Wanda aren't Heavy units. The Hobgobwins are. Jack and Wanda turned their mounts into shish kebabs in order to fall. By turning the hobgobs into Heavies, some of the dewagons might have survived the fall to the Atrium and be useful just that much longer.


Ahh, that's right, mis-remembered that Parson promoted them all.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby MarbitChow » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:35 am

Kreistor wrote:Personally, I feel Parson's entry into combat as one of abandoning his position as a Player.

No, just a different kind of player. In a war game, the Player sits above the mess and issues orders. In an RPG, the player is in the thick of things. Parson was neither until he got re-promoted. Now he's both.

Note that this mirrors the historical transition from miniature war games to Dungeons and Dragons on Earth. :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby drachefly » Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:15 am

They're defenders. Defenders can go anywhere and do anything (in the city). Already took that into account.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:46 pm

drachefly wrote:Wow.

Also, the saw has given us our first glimpse of Erfworlders' insides, that I'm aware of.


Twoll first frame: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-04-13.jpg
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby DoctorJest » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:36 pm

pSycHOtic chICkeN wrote:
drachefly wrote:Wow.

Also, the saw has given us our first glimpse of Erfworlders' insides, that I'm aware of.


Twoll first frame: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-04-13.jpg


And more recently, we also have Antium
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -12-31.jpg
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -01-17.jpg
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