MarbitChow wrote:Kreistor wrote:Science isn't just a method, it is also the set of discoveries made by that method.
Now you're equating science with scientific knowledge. Science is a method. Scientific knowledge is the result of that method.
Lemme see if I can cut through some of this. Let's start with some definitions. I'll divide them up into categories the way that I see it, which is pretty close to Marbit's
1a. Science - Science is the scientific method. The methodical testing and verifying information that we all know and love. Or at least know.
1b. Scientific knowledge - Scientific knowledge is the summation of the results of the scientific method, no matter what it was applied to.
2a. "Physics/Physical Force" - Physical force is any force that are have a source within the material world. This also includes forces that have a physical reason that can be explained within the physical universe that we either don't know about yet or do not have an working theory for. This is gravity, electromagnetism, etc.
2b. "Magic/Magical Force" - Magical force is any force that does not have a source within the material world other than the intervention of a conscious effort of will. This is a force that is only present with the application of conscious thought and has no other source in the material world.
3. "Applied Knowledge
3a. "Technology" - Item created based on applied knowledge of physical forces.
3b. "Magic Item" - Item created based on applied knowledge of magical forces.
Science is just a process. How we learn. Scientific knowledge can be about anything. Science can be applied to baseball. To plant growth. To someone's efficiency at work. Including magic.
Gravity works whether anyone's thinking about it or not. A magnet is still a magnet even if there's no one around to affect it. All physical forces are mechanistic, in that they do not require the intervention of a consciousness. They act in ways that are logical and predictable (eventually) and happen no matter what. In some realities, this may include certain forces that we in this reality would call magical. If the force is mechanistic and works in predictable ways that work whether or not a consciousness is involved, then it is a physical force, no matter how magical it may seem to us.
The distinction between the two is that 'magic' is a force created purely from the human will alone. Using a magnet to move a paperclip to you is a physical force. It has an explainable causation withing the physical world. Magnetism is a known force that works everywhere.
Moving the paperclip with nothing but your will is not a physical force. That is a magical force. You are using a force that has no causation in the physical world and cannot be explained in any way except by the application of the human will. When you stop applying your will, the force ceases to be. And that's the distinction. Magical force has no cause that isn't based on consciousness. It is non-mechanistic. Consciousness is the key.
That's how I see it, and I believe that's probably a pretty good summary of how Marbit sees it.
If you wish to argue that 'magic' is simply a physical force that we can't explain yet, I would accept that, but that's not the argument that most magicians make. They argue that it is will alone outside of the physical universe and that is where the problem appears.