Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

Postby vintermann » Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:50 pm

Whispri wrote: Makes you wonder why Wanda and Jillian are lower level than he, but there you go.


We know that royals and nobles level faster, and Wanda isn't either. She also probably saw zero combat action (and very little other experience-gaining action) for Faq. In addition, we don't know if casters and warlords level at the same rate (if D&D and similar are anything to go by, they don't).

Jillian popped near the very end of Faq, so she isn't that much older than Ansom. You still would think she would have gained more experience through operating as a barbarian warlord, but it could be, for instance, that Ansom could afford to take bigger risks in one-on-one fights with enemy warlords, knowing he had good backup. Also, he took all of Gobwin Knob's cities, that's got to be worth something. In the end, they are very close in level as well (her 9 vs. his 10).

One question is just how much levels matter. Overlord Firebaugh expected his new, lvl 1 warlord to save his side. Delphie Temple is a modest level 4. What can a level 1 croakamancer do?

Episode-related speculation: Wanda will have to uncroak more than the enemy losses if they are to survive, and this is going to be a point of contention.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:02 pm

Oh wow. For once there's a lot of material that popped up in the (half of a) week I've been away.

I hate Delphie. In fact, probably all Predictamancers are just as manipulative and ... well annoying. It's annoying enough to meet someone who thinks they have all the answers. Let alone someone who actually might.

But I love Wanda, or rather, her "childhood". It's really interesting to see what passes for being "green" and "young" on Erfworld, as things suddenly pop into memory without having been mentioned, but the shakiness of the first steps is there nonetheless.

And I wouldn't call her the antagonist in any of the timelines we saw. It's also nice to see Wanda have a "family" and, to the extent that it can exist simply by decreeing that it should be so, whether she has some affection for that family. (Think about it, no blood connection, no shared experience ... but she just knows what family is and maybe has a bit of fondness for her relatives)

[tinfoil hat]Wanda will be forced to uncroak her family just so that she can survive and meet friendlier shores. That experience will be the one to finally pushing her into the calculated icy Queen Bitch of the Universe we all know.[/tinfoil hat]

Tathar wrote:Wanda is starting to remind me of Parson here, right down to blurring the lines between caster and warlord roles. Maybe the reason why she believes in Parson so much is because she herself has been shown to be more valuable leadership than her bonus would suggest?


I'd also like to point out that-> mount relays! Ok, not really (less relay, and more like extension of move), but the idea was floated, when Goodminton's leadership discussed what to do with Wanda, that she could be brought to, then back from, the front during the same turn. Eventually they decided to skip the bringing Wanda back part, which means no tactical innovation was deployed, but I'm happy to see Erfworlders at least considering these things.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

Postby happyturtle » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:09 pm

Whispri wrote:Yeah, I really don't see what antagonistic about any of that. Even if, for example, leaving Ansom behind was a bad decision, something I'm not convinced of as Haggard and Faq have both been removed from the fighting as a result, that doesn't make her an antagonist, merely someone who's capable of making mistakes. A fool for love if you will. The Tower thing was Jack's idea and could well have worked out fine if not for Maggie. As far as her fatalism goes... what of it? What's so bad about wanting to minimise suffering?

I'll be blunt: The sides you list as sympathetic are evil, bandit sides led by monsters. The Queen of Faq is a joyful mass murderess who actively hates the idea of living at peace. The Don King and Slately praised the actions of the Demoness Bea, who murdered her own daughter under a flag of truce and comitted genoicide against her own people, rather than accept the favourable peace terms she'd been offered. The Don King's a lunatic who's brought his side to the brink of ruin. Slately attacked Stanley for no reason other than that he's an Overlord. Charlie's a pimp. All of them want war and are neighbours with whom Gobwin knob can't know peace without first defeating. And Wanda's opposing them, that's a mark in her favour. Tell me, what practical difference is there between Wanda and a Paladin with a Holy Sword?


I think you misunderstand what I mean by the term 'Antagonist'. I don't mean 'Villain', though that's certainly arguable. I am speaking of the Antagonist as the major opponent to the Protagonist, who we know is Parson A. Gotti.

His open antagonists are Jetstone, Faq, Charlescomm, and pretty much every other side in Erfworld who might have a reason to war with Gobwin Knob. Or you could say that his personal antagonist is Stanley, who regularly chews him out and can disband him with a thought. Or you could say that his immediate antagonists in the scene he's in right now are the Thinkamancers, who are preventing him from achieving his present goal of going through the portal. But overall, the more that has been revealed over the course of the comics and the text entries and the prequels, I can't help but see it as Parson v. Wanda. Hippiemancy v. Naughtymancy.

Whispri wrote:And that's quite enough of that line/branch/whatever/blah of rant/argument/blah/whatever me'thinks.


Discussion, I should hope. ;)

Muzzafar wrote:
Whispri wrote:Antagonist? What does she do, make faces at Parson behind his back?

[Tin foil hat on]
Somewhere about the end of Book 1 I actually had an idea that Wanda may become the major antagonist in the future. She would somehow split off from Stanley and Gobwin Knob (her troops already wear her own livery) and Parson would be Duty-bound to fight her for Stanley. I mean, come on, if Gobwin Knob has got "all the classic evil creatures" on its side, then what would you say about a Necromancer witch with legions of living dead?
[Tin foil hat off]


[Tin foil hat on]
I've had the idea since here: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -08-04.jpg
"Stay alive, Wanda. By any means. That's an order." Saying that to a unit with a Loyalty stat in the basement is just asking for trouble. :P
[/Tin foil hat off]
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

Postby Kalak » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:12 pm

So, I'm guessing Tommy is only home for the popping of his sister. The other casters are there 100% of the time, "protecting" the capitol (It is their capitol, right? Only one city left). The story would be boring with Wanda just sitting at home under the thumb of Delphie, so I'm assuming in an update or two, we'll be seeing Tommy and Wanda riding out to battle and protecting themselves from their "allies" on the way there. I'm really interested to see the other sides in this, and if Charlie has any mercs involved in any of the sides.

I'm imagining this is probably too far away from Jetstone, Transylvito, etc to play into them as much. I bet we'll see more of the lesser-used Sides.

EDIT: Nevermind. I guess it would have be close, since it will deal with "a lot of meaty background on Wanda, Jillian, Jack, Marie, Stanley, and others." I hope Saline IV will be in that list. I wonder if Rob is going to cover all of them at once, and just leave us at cliffhangers each time he transitions in-between them.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

Postby raphfrk » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:22 pm

vintermann wrote:
Whispri wrote: Makes you wonder why Wanda and Jillian are lower level than he, but there you go.


We know that royals and nobles level faster, and Wanda isn't either.


I thought that was the point, she is a Royal caster, since she popped instead of a Royal warlord.

One question is just how much levels matter. Overlord Firebaugh expected his new, lvl 1 warlord to save his side. Delphie Temple is a modest level 4. What can a level 1 croakamancer do?


Right, presumably, all she has is raise undead. The basic one probably comes automatically to Croakamancers.

We may be about to see what Wanda saw when Maggie told her to think of the first time she cast within her discipline.

Also, I wonder how they plan to make her a corpse. It could involve ordering a unit to jump of the roof of the tower. Wanda's bonus + a recently uncroaked unit might be higher than the unit without being uncroaked. Also, if her bonus matters, then presumably, Atomic has to handle another front.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

Postby zilfallon » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:54 pm

She stepped closer to Tommy, and smiled up at him.

"Big brother," she said sweetly, taking his hand, "would you make some for me? Pleeease?"


That sounds TOOOOCUTEEE :D I really want to see a picture of Wanda holding Tommy's hand and saying "would you make some for me pleeeeeeease?" :D :D
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

Postby Kreistor » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:55 pm

Whispri wrote:Makes you wonder why Wanda and Jillian are lower level than he, but there you go.


Okay, it has already been pointed out that Jillian is much younger than Wanda, being popped near the end of FAQ.

Wanda is a caster. You will note that in the employ of Stanley, when Manpower died, Wanda was in GK, and had to be flown out to uncroak him. Prior to that, she was in FAQ, doing nothing. We don't know how she goes from Goodminton to FAQ, but since FAQ doesn't expand its territory and mercenary forces probably wouldn't be allowed to keep Caster captives, she probably gets hired from the MK (the same way Vanna did). So while she may level in the immediate defense of Goodminton, her future is one of any other Caster... stay-at-home unit production which leads to no Leveling.

Casters seem to train in the MK, the same way Artemis trained a Level, so that may lead to Leveling over the loooong haul. We do not know if Juice is tied to Level, or if it can be increased or made more efficient through meditation and practice. But there definitely is the capacity to expand your options by learning other disciplines (if you have the capacity like Wanda), which increases their power without requiring increased Level.

raphfrk wrote:I thought that was the point, she is a Royal caster, since she popped instead of a Royal warlord.


Not one person has been named Prince, Princess, or King. The term Overlord is used for Firebaugh, which makes this side non-Royal, and Wanda is therefore non-Royal.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

Postby raphfrk » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:08 pm

Kreistor wrote:Not one person has been named Prince, Princess, or King. The term Overlord is used for Firebaugh, which makes this side non-Royal, and Wanda is therefore non-Royal.


Good point, sorry :), mis-remembered.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

Postby coyotenose » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:37 pm

Now that I've seen the opening of this promising piece of backstory, I've become convinced that this is Wanda's theme song.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

Postby Jorgath » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:37 pm

Put me down in the "this Side is Noble but not Royal" column. My argument is essentially that although this Side is clearly not Royal, it shares some of the practices and traits of Royalty, something we haven't seen from any non-Royal Side. Of course, our exposure to non-Royal Sides is limited to GK and Charlie (and I suppose Hyatt Regency and Carpool?), but it seems logical to me that the concept of "family" would not show up in a non-Noble Side, but COULD show up in a Noble-but-not-Royal Side.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

Postby heyduck » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:42 pm

It's possible that Jetstone is in this campaign; Slately said he sent Tramennis on a far-off campaign after he popped, so it's possible that this is one of those far-off campaigns; it would have to be, if Faq is there as well since they did not (or rarely) took contracts near their capital.

Also, I will laugh so hard if it turns out Wanda is the reason forthewin died, one text update said he died at Iceburg, so maybe that place is nearby, I have no reason to believe this no evidence, I just thought it would be a funny scenario.

As for real predictions go I think Wanda will try her hardest to save her side, but Delphie will get angry with her saying that what she is doing is a waste of time and will only cause suffering for everybody including her (meaning Wanda) the longer she fights fate, which it will. I mean Wanda has got to have a beginning for her ideology somewhere right?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

Postby Spot » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:18 am

vintermann wrote:
We know that royals and nobles level faster, and Wanda isn't either.



Incorrect.

Wanda is... at a minimum... noble, as we all just learned from the last four text updates.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

Postby Necromonkey » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:41 am

Now that I've seen the opening of this promising piece of backstory, I've become convinced that this is Wanda's theme song.



If I had to pick a theme song for Wanda, I'd have to go with this instead. Gwar
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

Postby Kreistor » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:42 am

Spot wrote:Wanda is... at a minimum... noble, as we all just learned from the last four text updates.


No, only Royal Sides pop Nobles, and Overlord Firebaugh is not Royal or he would be called KIng, and Atomic would be Prince Atomic.

A "Noble" side is just like a non-Royal Side. It can't pop Nobles.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

Postby vintermann » Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:44 am

Spot wrote:Incorrect.

Wanda is... at a minimum... noble, as we all just learned from the last four text updates.


At a maximum noble. As I recall, Parson's klog said "royal sides pop nobles and more royals". That doesn't technically exclude the possibility of non-royal sides popping nobles (if they are led by a noble, maybe), but that would mean there's a third category of sides, the noble-led - and so far we have seen no examples of that. I would also think that if Overlord Firebaugh was a duke or something, he would be adressed as such - or at very least, his children would be adressed with noble titles.

I think that if a noble heir inherits a royal side (as Viscount Caesar Borgata could have), he becomes royal himself. This is basically the way royalty worked in our world, remember. A non-royal side can arise from the promotion of common units (as in Stanley's case), or maybe more often from wild-popped barbarians taking over a capital site.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

Postby Dr Pepper » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:23 am

badninja wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Charlie lives in a tower in the mountains, with no evidence of constant snowfall. He holds no cities, and the castle is one of the best defended in the world due to its natural terrain. Goodminton isn't even close to that. No, this isn't Charlie's past. We'll never know that. Based on Charlie's Angels, Charlie is a complete unknown, and our Charlie will keep to that.


I am making a guess based off possibility's, Charlie does not half to appear, but him controlling Wanda's original side would be a plot point that can be used. His trademarked unit is expensive and rare. We do not know what Goodminton can pop besides what has already been mentioned. If Charlie gets mentioned as a player I will be wrong but lets not discount a possibility before we have all the facts.


Hmm. It is interesting that Lord Firebaugh's first name has not yet come up.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

Postby drachefly » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:20 am

vintermann wrote:that would mean there's a third category of sides, the noble-led - and so far we have seen no examples of that.


Given that royals and commoners can lead sides, it seems really odd to even speculate that nobles can't.
If they can, it seems counterintuitive for their daughters and sons not to be noble.

Plus, there's a hint - the Hyatt Regency. A regency in the real world is temporary rule by nobles until the fully acknowledged king or queen can return to the throne. Certain fictional regencies have persisted in this state for a rather longer time than in real life (Gondor).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

Postby Sallo » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:23 pm

I wasn't quite certain what to expect from this story.
Now I am kicking myself for lack of faith and confidence.
The proper statement is "I expect Quality."

I look forward to what happens next.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

Postby Swodaems » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:22 pm

I'm guessing Wanda's status as daughter to the current Overlord means that she was popped as a heir. (OR possibly as a Knight commander if that combination of traits is possible.)

Think about it this way: Question: In a world where units with specific attributes are summoned from nothingness over a period of time by another unit who has the ability to unsummon any unit they have summoned, what does it mean when the summoner decides to declare one of the soon to be summoned units their child and all the other summoned units recognize it? Answer: That the soon to be summoned unit has all the attributes required for the summoner to consider them as such. Who amongt Goodmitton would risk disbandment by disagreeing with the Overlord over who he decides to recognize as his child? Wanda and the Overlord's relation may not be recognized as a parent-child one by people in other sides, but that really doesn't matter in the slightest in regards to how they address each other.

That said, since Wanda was declared as the Overlord's daughter upon popping, that probably means that there some physically definable attribute that she and Tommy both possess that serves to seperate them from the rest of the casters/warlords. Since it can't be royalty because of Firebaugh's overlord status, the most likely suspects for that attribute are heir (which makes Wanda's survival important to the side on the off case that both the Overlord and Tommy bite it,) or some attribute that would serve her side well if placed on a commander unit, but is too expensive in one form or another to give to every commander unit. (A nobility title if Overlord Firebaugh is a non-royal noble, or as I said above, knighthood.)

I guessing family in Erfworld is a simple, yet complex, thing. The Ruler pops a unit with attributes that designate it as potentially important to the side. He then goes out of his way to ensure that the unit recieves special treatment from him and the rest of the side to ensure that it develops into a proper asset. Emotions may play a role depending on the people involved, but are somewhat irrelevent to the process except where they interfer.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 004

Postby raphfrk » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:25 pm

vintermann wrote:I think that if a noble heir inherits a royal side (as Viscount Caesar Borgata could have), he becomes royal himself.


I don't think so, that is why Don is popping a Royal Heir, he wants the side to remain Royal.

Regent might be the title for a Noble led side. It might also mean a side with an Overlord, but which has a Royal Heir. This could happen if the Royal Heir production had already started when the King died. Another option would be if a Royal side gave/sold a Royal unit and that unit was made Heir. This could happen as part of a treaty, a side gets to continue. It might increase the chance of assassination though. The Royal Heir would have low loyalty. Similarly, the Overlord might put him in danger as Chief Warlord, in order to have him replaced. Also, a King could make a non-Royal an Heir, even though there are some princes available, so the resulting Overlord would have Royal Heirs available.

Also, it seems that it would be rare for the Heir to even actually inherit, since units are immortal. The only options are coups and something where the heir is not in the capital defending their last city (such as a decapitation strike which captures the Capital before capturing the other cities)
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