Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

Postby atalex » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:02 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
raphfrk wrote:That would mean that Parson "dies" every morning. Ofc, the same argument can be made that maybe, conciousness is broken by sleeping and a new person awakes every morning.

Now we're venturing into the realm of philosophy. If a Star Trek transporter breaks you apart and reassembles you using atoms in all the same atoms, but they're not the same atoms, are you the same person? If, over time, you replace every part of a ship, is it still the same ship?


Wasn't there a Star Trek character (Dr. Pulaski, maybe?) who hated using transporters for that very reason? Like every use of the transporter represented a murder followed by the recreation of the murder victim in a new location? I distinctly remember that Pulaski did not like to use transporters -- it was a plot point in a Season 2 episode. Specifically, the one where the Enterprise discovered the secret of immortality through abuse of the transporters and then promptly forgot about it because the writers didn't pick up on the implications of their own deus ex machina!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

Postby Raza » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:00 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
Raza wrote:That's equally possible, sure. But since in erfworld, 'life' is the presence of a thing and death the (default) absence of it, for croakamancers to be unable to use their senses on living units would require a separate mechanism of resistance. Occam's razor is in my favor here.

I'm not convinced that's how Erfworld actually works. Each turn, pigs are replaced with bigger pigs, until the pig vanishes and bacon pops. Each turn, wounded units are replaced with fully healed units. It is quite possible that the 'death' event replaces a living unit with a similar 'dead' unit that is actually a different object. Occam's Razor should really only be applied to experimental situations in a limited scientific fashion - it's not a universal catch-all for winning an argument, since we're restricting the set of conditions arbitrarily.

Oh, I know, 'mnot out to 'win' anything - just sharing my line of thought on an admitted point of uncertainty. Although I think Wanda's explanation of Matter that now lacked Life and Motion rules out your replacement hypothesis, at least insofar as she knows.

Erfworld does seem to have a lot of apparently mechanic-less purpose-based functions, but ironically magic is starting to get reduced to the point where it may become the exception. 'Sup in the air for now.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

Postby Dr Pepper » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:54 pm

Wow. Also Ewww.
Read, like there won't be a movie
Game, like the die rolls don't matter
Filk, like everyone is tone deaf anyway

10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
. . . . . . Dr Pepper
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . .4
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

Postby multilis » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:02 pm

'I can't quite see this being the case; a "basic offensive spell" is only useful to a caster lacking a better one' - in the better games I have played early stuff is *always* useful in some role later. In this case it is *cheap* and also seems to have a chance to knock enemy off their mount or out of a tree, sounds like a "physical" type attack.

Later Wanda may find some way to do a fireball that would do 2x to a large area rather than just 1 unit, at 4x the cost in juice. Or another one that can do 4x the damage and possibly sicken/weaken a unit at 4x the cost in juice. In this case both would be overkill and she couldn't afford. And later against a golem that was resistant to both fire and sickness attacks... the physical attack of this "basic" spell may still end up being as effective even if Wanda had unlimited juice.

So what happens later is she only uses the "basic spell" 10% of the time rather than most of time, but it is forever in some situations useful because it is so cheap to cast and there are some unit types that are more vulnerable to it.

(Sort of like in age of sub machine guns and hand grenades how a pistol and knife are still useful to a soldier)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

Postby Oberon » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:07 am

Xandercrisp wrote:Also, I might have missed it, but is this the first time we've seen a magic item get broken (not used up, but broken) in combat?
He was wearing a very good scouting veil; she was very lucky to have spotted him in the tree. But such items are fragile, and this one had been destroyed in the melee.
Not the first time, Wanda's staff (the Skeletor staff now held by Parson) was busted up good when she was blasted off of her uncroaked unipegitar after her assault on Ansom. Presumably, it was later repaired by a Twoll using the fabrication special. Or GK had two of them...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

Postby Kreistor » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:43 am

Oberon wrote:
Xandercrisp wrote:Also, I might have missed it, but is this the first time we've seen a magic item get broken (not used up, but broken) in combat?
He was wearing a very good scouting veil; she was very lucky to have spotted him in the tree. But such items are fragile, and this one had been destroyed in the melee.
Not the first time, Wanda's staff (the Skeletor staff now held by Parson) was busted up good when she was blasted off of her uncroaked unipegitar after her assault on Ansom. Presumably, it was later repaired by a Twoll using the fabrication special. Or GK had two of them...


It doesn't necessarily have to be magical, either. It may have just been a ghillie suit, which would be considered Natural Foolamancy and not distinguished from magic.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

Postby Pax » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:46 am

Kreistor wrote:"The hoboken is the basic offensive spell known to almost all casters at the time they pop."

Almost all. It's not universal. And that concerns me.

It may be an indicator of how many casters are like Sizemore... limited to only one discipline. Hopefully Rob will clarify.

Hippiemancers may not start with an attack spell. They may start with a spell that prevents it's target from attacking ...?

Carnymancers may not have an attack spell to begin with; they may have a distraction spell instead (*suddenly looks shocked/surprised* "Look, a monkey!" *points somewhere behind you*) ...

A couple other disciplines may have similar, "not an attack but serves the same sort of entry-level purpose" spell rather than Hoboken.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

Postby Kreistor » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:58 am

Pax wrote:Hippiemancers may not start with an attack spell. They may start with a spell that prevents it's target from attacking ...?

Carnymancers may not have an attack spell to begin with; they may have a distraction spell instead (*suddenly looks shocked/surprised* "Look, a monkey!" *points somewhere behind you*) ...

A couple other disciplines may have similar, "not an attack but serves the same sort of entry-level purpose" spell rather than Hoboken.


Others have made that point, so I'll answer it. I don't think the sentence would have been worded as it is if it was selected by class and not individual talent. I think it would have said, "The hoboken is the basic offensive spell known to most disciplines at the time they pop." Instead it says "most casters", so I think the intent is to indicate some individuals can't cast it, rather than entire disciplines.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:12 am

Kreistor wrote:Others have made that point, so I'll answer it. I don't think the sentence would have been worded as it is if it was selected by class and not individual talent. I think it would have said, "The hoboken is the basic offensive spell known to most disciplines at the time they pop." Instead it says "most casters", so I think the intent is to indicate some individuals can't cast it, rather than entire disciplines.

Agreed. I'd be willing to wager that units start with, for example, 4 out of 5 "generic" / "universal" spells, of which Hoboken is one. If the spells are determined at random, 4 out of 5 casters would start with Hoboken (which fits the definition of "most"). Other likely hypothetical candidates could include "Scribe Scroll", "Light" ('Powerball'?), some form of defensive spell ("Shield") and the like.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

Postby Sixty » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:00 am

I'm leaning towards the item the scout had being magical, or at least more than just "natural foolamancy" type camouflage since the impression I got was that the scout unit at first glance looked like a colesloth (since no one else seemed to be disturbed by it, probably just a normal type animal that pops in non city hexs from time to time and the scout was disguising himself as one) and Wanda saw through the veil and blasted it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

Postby Althernai » Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:20 am

Kreistor wrote:Others have made that point, so I'll answer it. I don't think the sentence would have been worded as it is if it was selected by class and not individual talent. I think it would have said, "The hoboken is the basic offensive spell known to most disciplines at the time they pop."

No, it could not -- that would not be proper English. A discipline does not know any spells and it does not "pop", but casters of a discipline do. The way it is written is somewhat ambiguous, but I think it is much more likely that all Hippiemancers can't cast hoboken than some Croakamancers can't cast it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

Postby Kreistor » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:12 am

Althernai wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Others have made that point, so I'll answer it. I don't think the sentence would have been worded as it is if it was selected by class and not individual talent. I think it would have said, "The hoboken is the basic offensive spell known to most disciplines at the time they pop."

No, it could not -- that would not be proper English. A discipline does not know any spells and it does not "pop", but casters of a discipline do. The way it is written is somewhat ambiguous, but I think it is much more likely that all Hippiemancers can't cast hoboken than some Croakamancers can't cast it.


It doesn't prove a single thing that I left the pronoun in place, nor does it alter my argument to redefine the sentence out of context. "They" draws its meaning from the previous version of the sentence when I replaced one word the way I did.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

Postby Necromonkey » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:51 pm

Until Rob prints a DMG and a PHB for Erfworld rules...everything everyone is posting is pure speculation. Reference anything and everything you want, but it can't be related as fact. I say that because this is Rob's story, his world, his rules. We are just people who read it. What 1 croakamancer does, doesn't mean all of them can do. It's totally up to him.
So what everyone is calling facts about this storyline are only setting themselves up to critisize Rob about his own story, and if he bends to your critisim then the story no longer belongs to him.
I'm a firm believer that Rob is writting this story for himself, and sharing it with us, not writing it for us. Because if he wrote it for us, then nothing would ever get written because he'd have to spend to much time trying to please everyone.

I mean seriously...at the end of the day does it really matter what casters start with hoboken and which ones don't? No, because no one is rolling a caster to play in a RPG based on erfworld rules. No one really needs to know all of the rules anyway. If you know all the rules, it eliminates all the surprises. Case in point, Rob wants to be creative and have a royal heir be pulled from a magic hat, just in time to save the kingdom. Rather than just accept his version of his own story, everyone would stand up collectivly and say "we the people of the erfworld forums have declared that tactic is against the rules, and think you shouldn't be able to do that."

I'm sure most of you see nothing wrong with that, but from my point of view, you'd be hindering the author from writing his own book. And instead forcing him to write a book based on your "rules" and not his own.

All in all I say just enjoy the book and enough with all the constant babbling back and forth, trying to sway everyones opinion to match your own.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

Postby Ptharien's Flame » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:04 pm

Necromonkey wrote:Until Rob prints a DMG and a PHB for Erfworld rules...everything everyone is posting is pure speculation. Reference anything and everything you want, but it can't be related as fact. I say that because this is Rob's story, his world, his rules. We are just people who read it. What 1 croakamancer does, doesn't mean all of them can do. It's totally up to him.
So what everyone is calling facts about this storyline are only setting themselves up to critisize Rob about his own story, and if he bends to your critisim then the story no longer belongs to him.
I'm a firm believer that Rob is writting this story for himself, and sharing it with us, not writing it for us. Because if he wrote it for us, then nothing would ever get written because he'd have to spend to much time trying to please everyone.

I mean seriously...at the end of the day does it really matter what casters start with hoboken and which ones don't? No, because no one is rolling a caster to play in a RPG based on erfworld rules. No one really needs to know all of the rules anyway. If you know all the rules, it eliminates all the surprises. Case in point, Rob wants to be creative and have a royal heir be pulled from a magic hat, just in time to save the kingdom. Rather than just accept his version of his own story, everyone would stand up collectivly and say "we the people of the erfworld forums have declared that tactic is against the rules, and think you shouldn't be able to do that."

I'm sure most of you see nothing wrong with that, but from my point of view, you'd be hindering the author from writing his own book. And instead forcing him to write a book based on your "rules" and not his own.

All in all I say just enjoy the book and enough with all the constant babbling back and forth, trying to sway everyones opinion to match your own.

I would like to point out that many people here are playing Erfsims, and that Rob pretty heavily implied in his Time magazine interview that his preferred way for us to enjoy the story is to analyze it half to death. Quoting the MST3K Mantra in Erfworld's context is a direct contradiction of the author's intent.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

Postby sleepymancer » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:10 pm

Necromonkey - Nah, I think he just laughs. I'm pretty certain he doesn't feel bound by anything we deduce or infer from what we think he said. Occasionally he 'clarifies' a point in such a way as to make a dozen more questions arise, I admit; but I think that comes under 'he just laughs' also!

Still, I agree with the sentiment about its not an RPG its not a game, its a story which is occasionally game-like.

Having said that, I'm going to poke an enquiring stick at the world again with a suggestion. Assuming that Wanda cannot judge the health of living units, and I think that, beyond points, and without more information that is a fair guess, it is quite possible that the Life energy in the living unit provides so much noise that her senses are flooded instead.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

Postby Ptharien's Flame » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:17 pm

sleepymancer wrote:Assuming that Wanda cannot judge the health of living units, and I think that, beyond points, and without more information that is a fair guess, it is quite possible that the Life energy in the living unit provides so much noise that her senses are flooded instead.


If that is the case, it would make for an interesting logical explanation of someone else's earlier idea that a Croakamancer's "life sense" is by default disabled, like closed eyes.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

Postby Kreistor » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:34 pm

Ptharien's Flame wrote:
Necromonkey wrote:Until Rob prints a DMG and a PHB for Erfworld rules...everything everyone is posting is pure speculation. Reference anything and everything you want, but it can't be related as fact. I say that because this is Rob's story, his world, his rules. We are just people who read it. What 1 croakamancer does, doesn't mean all of them can do. It's totally up to him.
So what everyone is calling facts about this storyline are only setting themselves up to critisize Rob about his own story, and if he bends to your critisim then the story no longer belongs to him.
I'm a firm believer that Rob is writting this story for himself, and sharing it with us, not writing it for us. Because if he wrote it for us, then nothing would ever get written because he'd have to spend to much time trying to please everyone.

I mean seriously...at the end of the day does it really matter what casters start with hoboken and which ones don't? No, because no one is rolling a caster to play in a RPG based on erfworld rules. No one really needs to know all of the rules anyway. If you know all the rules, it eliminates all the surprises. Case in point, Rob wants to be creative and have a royal heir be pulled from a magic hat, just in time to save the kingdom. Rather than just accept his version of his own story, everyone would stand up collectivly and say "we the people of the erfworld forums have declared that tactic is against the rules, and think you shouldn't be able to do that."

I'm sure most of you see nothing wrong with that, but from my point of view, you'd be hindering the author from writing his own book. And instead forcing him to write a book based on your "rules" and not his own.

All in all I say just enjoy the book and enough with all the constant babbling back and forth, trying to sway everyones opinion to match your own.

I would like to point out that many people here are playing Erfsims, and that Rob pretty heavily implied in his Time magazine interview that his preferred way for us to enjoy the story is to analyze it half to death. Quoting the MST3K Mantra in Erfworld's context is a direct contradiction of the author's intent.


I have to agree with you there. The target audience is gamers, and gamers are going to expect accuracy, so they can relate to Parson's superiority in gaming. The moment he breaks his Rules, he loses his fan base and the comic is scrap.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

Postby the_tick_rules » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:41 pm

It would have to be that way somewhat. I've opened my rule books to check what happened in OOTS more than once.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

Postby Necromonkey » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:01 pm

Don't get me wrong I love debates as much as the next person. The only thing that bugged me enough to the point that I felt like posting, is when people hop on here and post a theory or idea, and then have a dozen people say that person is wrong and get a dozen different theories none of which can be proven.
So 3 pages later you have 12 people with 12 different theories, all based on thier opinion/perception of rules that haven't even been written. Its like watching a carousel going round and round, everyone is saying the same thing over and over, each on a different horse saying thier horse if the best.

For example this is how I perceive most "debates" on this forum. I post something like "All croakamancers have black hair, and all dirtamancers have bald spots"
20 people jump on me and tell me I'm wrong, that I can't make that kind of claim.....ok why not.....another page of "this is why". In the end I can't prove myself right, although technically I am, since we've only seen 1 of each kind of caster. And no one can prove me wrong, again because we've only seen 1 of each caster I'm talking about....but the "debate" goes on and on and on until eventually the next issue is posted and draws our attention away from this debate, just to do it all over again on a different subject.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 005

Postby Necromonkey » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:05 pm

the_tick_rules wrote:It would have to be that way somewhat. I've opened my rule books to check what happened in OOTS more than once.



I agree, but only because that story is written in DnD terms where the rules are clearly defined prior to the strip being written. Erfworld is a different can of worms, most of the "rules" just flowed from pen to paper as Rob was writing the story. There is not a book to reference.
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