Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

Postby raphfrk » Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:28 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:And heck, a lv1 warlord costs the same as a lv1 mancer. If Wanda can raise dozens of troops right away at first level, a 1st level warlord would be no laughing matter either.


They don't cost the same really. You "win" casters when you try for warlord.

If a caster pops every 10 warlord attempts, then the cost of a caster is ten times the cost of building a warlord minus the value of ten warlords. You end up with ten times as many warlords as casters.

Also, the randomness depends on the number of casters that you have on your side. The cost per caster increases as your side gets more.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:37 pm

Then why did Wanda's brother said he would've prefered an axe-crazy warlord? Yes, warlords can mostly swing swords and make nearby troops fight better instead of magic, but in Erfworld, just hiting hard counts for a lot.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

Postby Lamech » Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:37 pm

Kreistor wrote:4) Croaked depop at Dawn.

This is a concern for Croakamancers that go first in the Turn order. If their Side kills units on subsequent Turns, if the Croakamancer has no juice, the bodies will depop before the Caster gets Juice at Turn start. The bodies can't be moved on enemy Turn. Frankly, I think Rob should reconsider that, and retcon it to "end of the Turn on which it died on the day after it died" so Croakamancers of any Turn can have a chance to claim the corpse. There is a small possibility that you can throw it into the next hex off turn, but arrows shot hang on the hex wall, so it's not likely.
Yeah, its really weird here. Technically notes and presumably other objects can be passed through a hex boarder and uncroaking is not a spell, so it can be done off turn, or the corspe can be moved off-turn. But yes right now it is bad for croakamancers that go first. Last-turn croakamancer can spend all her juice uncroaking and then her turn starts so she can respend it.

Swodaems wrote:Also a 43 to 23 kill ratio seems a bit low considering there was a lvl 4 warlord present among the attackers. Consider the other instance of melee combat we've seen (Ansom's attack on the wall, Wrigley's squad falling 3 to 1 against a lvl 1 warlord's squad, Ansom's leadership and DDR bonus turning suicide waves into a effective strategy, etc.) Those guys should have done better.
Compare to the wriggley fight: Here level four bonus, wriggley fight level one plus Tram's hex-wide bonus. So that is even. Furthermore here they had to hit siege towers with attacks instead of mopping up units. The end result is 2 and siege for 1 unit instead of 3 for 1. It seems roughly even.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:I second Raza on all points mentioned in that post. Also, I wonder why we as speculators tend to be sceptical of the idea that Casters should be sent (closer) to the front line. Granted, some of them act very well as support back home (Thinkas, Moneys, Dirtas to some extent etc), but others are very much battlefield oriented (Croakas, Dittos, Foolas ...)- and the one Croaka we've seen has in fact seen battlefield experience BP*. The one Ditto we know has been used on the front line (well, just outside the city but still) by a side enemy to Parson. The one Foola we know has seen battlefield exp at Stanley's decision (not Parson's).

Fools do have things they can do at base. Like... veiling units! Remember the veil the scout had? Furthermore Hadokens means they can probably spell up towers. In fact if they can make veils the only reason to send them on the front lines is because you need a lot of units veiled right now. Foolamancers can sit in the capital just fine. Ditto's are obviously a good choice for hiding in back to double tons of stuff. Croakas seem like they make a good front line choice, but even then I would be tempted to keep them behind the army when I send it to fight, or even get a relay going: when the big fight is about to happen run them out uncroak all the corspes you have claimed and run them back to base.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

Postby SteveMB » Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:49 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Then why did Wanda's brother said he would've prefered an axe-crazy warlord?

Because right now, Goodminton seems to be in a dire military situation. Casters may be generally better in the long run, but warlords are more urgent if you're going into a fight right now.
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

Postby Zeku » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:27 pm

raphfrk wrote:If bodies de-pop at dawn, then they don't last a full turn. If they do last a full turn (so they de-pop at the start of whoever's turn it currently is), then turn order doesn't matter.


Have you spent more than a few seconds thinking about this subject? Health and juice are restored before the first-turners act. Turn order always matters, no matter what.

Uncroaking during the turmoil of combat would be harder than doing it during safety. At minimum, you get to move the uncroaked into position.


Citation needed.

This hypothetical battle that has been simplified logically so that only the relevant subject, the turn order, and the subject of body decay is being addressed.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

Postby Saladman » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:34 pm

Swodaems wrote:Of course, we still have no idea why Tommy decided to spread his units out across multiple hexes. (Or why anyone does.) Yes, it does say that he was expecting to be attacked from the fore, so placing vulnerable units a hex back might look like a good decision, but there is no explanation as to why that protection could not be provided from in hex formations. There is a stark contrast between placing vulnerable units someplace safe and placing them out of range of help. I would really like an explanation as to why Erfworlders feel the need to spread themselves out like targets at a carnival shooting gallery. (And preferably an explanation that involves some actual numbers.)


We conclude there's a capacity limit on the number of units of one side that can occupy an open hex. It's been hashed out here: http://www.erfworld.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3287. That would explain all the occurrences of columns, but the strongest direct reference is from here: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-03-26.png.

Book 2 - Text 19 wrote:"Cut through the trees to the back of the column, and march forward all the top units," Ansom ordered. Ford was the Warlord for this, a forest-capable ranger. "Leave a minimal rearguard, and pack this hex tight with the best we've got."


Sadly we lack exact numbers. It may be lower than I expected if Goodminton in their dire straits still has to march in even a short column. Or possibly the exact limit varies by terrain type, but that's speculation without any particular evidence.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

Postby Saladman » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:40 pm

SteveMB wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:Then why did Wanda's brother said he would've prefered an axe-crazy warlord?

Because right now, Goodminton seems to be in a dire military situation. Casters may be generally better in the long run, but warlords are more urgent if you're going into a fight right now.


This. Moreover, Goodminton had simply expected and therefore planned for a warlord. A caster instead threw off their particular plan. If their predictomancer had been doing her job they might have staged for some other battle plan entirely.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

Postby CNagy » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:40 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Would it really? If Wanda wasn't around, then there would be another warlord, who may have foreseen the ambush, spoted the attackers, or simply be the extra leadership they needed to watch over the siege stack.

You're over-thinking it. The only thing we know Haffaton knows is that Goodminton has the necessary forces to take the city if their siege capability isn't undermined (we know this because they launched a suicide attack on the siege). We know that Goodfinger is a turn's ride from Goodminton (ish). Therefore, it doesn't seem absurd to assume that Goodminton is facing an existential threat; they may be in danger of being wiped out as a side. Now, weigh the cost of a lvl 4 Warlord and a crew of diggers against Goodminton retaking the city, getting some breathing room, perhaps reaping the resource benefits of having an additional city under their control, perhaps halting the momentum of the Haffaton War Machine (small but ferocious!). I would certainly pay that cost, especially if I had the advantage; one does not give the enemy opportunities to turn the tide.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

Postby raphfrk » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:55 pm

Lamech wrote:In fact if they can make veils the only reason to send them on the front lines is because you need a lot of units veiled right now.


A foolamancer can probably veil way more units than a veiling object can. Making magic items is probably inefficient in general, unless the items last for a reasonably long time (and don't fall into enemy hands)

Croakas seem like they make a good front line choice, but even then I would be tempted to keep them behind the army when I send it to fight, or even get a relay going: when the big fight is about to happen run them out uncroak all the corspes you have claimed and run them back to base.


A croakamancer/mount combination is potentially much more effective than a croakamancer alone.

Having said that, a croakamancer gives a bonus to all uncroaked units and can uncroak during battle. It is a matter of risk/reward.

I wonder if croakamancers can make magic items and if so, what do they do.

Zeku wrote:Have you spent more than a few seconds thinking about this subject? Health and juice are restored before the first-turners act. Turn order always matters, no matter what.


Yes. Health is regenerated at start of turn. In fact, most things happen at the start of turn. Night is almost irrelevant and could be made completely irrelevant if the rules were set up that way. Turn order would still matter, it is just that there would be no advantages to early or late sides in the turn order.

It seems to matter for deciding what happens when alliances are dissolved. If you are in alliance with late acting sides, and then break alliance, you can get a turn during the evening and another during the morning. That means that you can get 2 turns before a side who moves in the afternoon, as was used by Transylvito against Stanley.

This would not be possible for a side if it was reversed (early alliance and evening natural turn order). If you move in the morning with your alliance and then leave, you don't get to move again at your natural turn at the end of the day.

Uncroaking during the turmoil of combat would be harder than doing it during safety. At minimum, you get to move the uncroaked into position.


Citation needed.


Doing anything while you are potentially about to be attacked is harder? As I said, at minimum, you can't have the units uncroaked and ready for the attack.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

Postby Whispri » Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:15 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:An extra warlord would be an extra tactical mind that may have just offered that sugestion.

And heck, a lv1 warlord costs the same as a lv1 mancer. If Wanda can raise dozens of troops right away at first level, a 1st level warlord would be no laughing matter either.

We're talking about attacking siege units camped out in the open, not assaulting a dark castle filled with creatures of the night. The lv4 Warlord came out of the tunnel, saw a LOT of enemy siege, and decided "screw this, I'll charge them anyway." Which means he believed the sacrifice of an experienced leader was worth slowing down the enemy.

And if wishes were horses we'd be knee deep in glue. Why are you expecting this hypothetical Warlord to succeed where four higher level Warlords failed?

A leadership bonus of one might tip the balance in a fight or two, in fact Goodminton's original plan seems to have hinged on that, but... aren't you basically calling for the Perfect Warlord to have been popped in Wanda's stead? Would that have even been enough?

Could he run? He'd only have so much move after all and had to destroy a certain amount of siege in order to do the job. Assuming he could, could he run far enough? And of course, he may have just have had a bad day and lost a battle he had a good chance of winning outright (I mean, if he kept rolling ones...). Or maybe he just happened to die before he could give the order to retreat?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

Postby Sixty » Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:11 pm

It does seem that you can fail casting a spell based on what Wanda said about possibly completely failing raising all the croaked and it seems to be tied to experience. Of course since there was speculation from various groups about the Summon Perfect Warlord spell being miscast I suppose we kinda already knew that (though possibly not that a spell could completely fail).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

Postby Dark Matter » Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:12 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:“Our croaked guys and their croaked guys here all have the digging special, right?”

All of the attacking units were diggers.
Perhaps other than the warlord (although maybe including him... we've seen warlords with misc specials), but this is interesting. If it's just resources (i.e. no better or cheaper units are available) then that's fine but a boring answer. Another possibility is some sort of economy, mixing units may reduce their non-combat effectiveness, or it might be that max-hex-size for units makes that awkward.

Or... it might be that the Warlord did have the special, and you need the special to hide underground that close to the surface. I like that answer the best but we have no direct proof for it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

Postby Kreistor » Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:26 am

raphfrk wrote:
Kreistor wrote:4) Croaked depop at Dawn.


I thought this happened at the start of the unit's side's next turn. The scout would have depopped at dawn, because it was a Haffaton unit and Haffaton moves at dawn.


You're absolutely right. I had forgotten that is already stated elsewhere.

This would mean that if you are attacked, you will always get a turn before any corpses de-pops (since all units involved in the attack would have the same turn order and you will get a move before it comes up again). There might be some exceptions when playing around with alliances.


Wanda points out the one exception. A Croakamancer out of juice at the end of Turn is SoL, unless she can move the body.

I'm not actually certain wrote:In fact, there is potentially a contradiction in the update, why aren't the corpses in the city decaying at dawn (when Haffaton's turn occurs). Hmm, maybe they moved all the corpses outside the city and then back inside to trigger a "move" for the corpses.


Would have to be the latter. I noticed it too, but I was playing a game while writing and forgot to point this flaw out.

random_guy wrote:I think it was pretty much established that she told Stanley that she didn't understand battle tactics so he wouldn't think she betrayed him when capturing Faq.
[/quote][/quote]

Actually, she hasn't shown an exceptional capacity in battle tactics. Above average, but leaving Jetstone was completely moronic for a multitude of reasons. I think that she has taken on that role more often when she is surrounded by less capable Warlords, but is extremely happy to have Parson around to let her abandon that capacity.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

Postby random_guy » Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:24 am

@Kreistor
I wasn't saying that she had exceptional capacity. In Book 1, Parson asked almost everyone (except Stanley) for advice, so he can learn about the world. According to one of the Klogs, he asked Wanda for information, but she did not offer him anything. The Klog said that he was under the impression she knew more than she let on. Even if her knowledge was not exceptional, she probably knows enough to teach someone that just arrived and does not know anything about the world.

I agree that her strategic knowledge is not great in general, but - in my opinion - her decision to capture Ossomer was better than Parson's suggestion to scout the area. Why risk your scouting units when you can gain the same information by capturing and turning one valuable unit? Everything went downhill for her as soon as Ossomer said, "Queen of FAQ", but she was able to keep things under control up until that point.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

Postby splintermute » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:58 am

raphfrk wrote:This would not be possible for a side if it was reversed (early alliance and evening natural turn order). If you move in the morning with your alliance and then leave, you don't get to move again at your natural turn at the end of the day.


I don't think this can ever happen - an alliance takes its turn at the time of its latest-moving member. If your natural turn is in the evening, so's that of any alliance you happen to join.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

Postby raphfrk » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:11 am

Kreistor wrote:Wanda points out the one exception. A Croakamancer out of juice at the end of Turn is SoL, unless she can move the body.


Technically, they attacked the scout. He was in the hex and they entered it. Wanda did have a chance of uncroak him, she just had used up all her juice.

This meant that Delphi was right, she shouldn't have added the (weak) extra defense on the capital.

Would have to be the latter. I noticed it too, but I was playing a game while writing and forgot to point this flaw out.


Another option is that you can "move"/claim a corpse without moving it outside a city hex. Assuming all cities have zones, moving them over a zone line might be enough.

They would still decay when their next turn starts.

Actually, she hasn't shown an exceptional capacity in battle tactics. Above average, but leaving Jetstone was completely moronic for a multitude of reasons. I think that she has taken on that role more often when she is surrounded by less capable Warlords, but is extremely happy to have Parson around to let her abandon that capacity.


She didn't want Parson to know that she had any combat knowledge.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

Postby raphfrk » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:32 am

splintermute wrote:I don't think this can ever happen - an alliance takes its turn at the time of its latest-moving member. If your natural turn is in the evening, so's that of any alliance you happen to join.


Ahh ok, is that actually stated? If so, then Rob has thought of the issue. Ironically, it means that he explicitly set it up so that the double move exploit was possible.

If he set it so that alliances move with their earliest member, then leaving an alliance would always mean that you have to wait at least a full day to get another turn.

Another option is that there is an "alliance leader" and that side determines move order.

A night-independent rule would be that unit move is refreshed at the start of the side's natural turn, but when the side is part of an alliance, the side's turn would be instantly skipped, and the move stored for use during the next alliance's turn. A side which joins an alliance during its turn would potentially be able to keep any remaining move and use it during the alliance's turn. This rule would mean that sides get a certain amount of move per day and can't be exploited to move units faster.

I wonder if Jillian actually did ally with Charlie and thus he was able to move with RCC-2. Since Charlie is before Jetstone, then nobody would notice under either rule. This would allow him to monitor Haggar.

Also, I wonder what determines natural turn order. Barbarians move first, so I wonder if younger sides move before older sides, or if it is randomly selected when a side is created.

Zeku wrote:First of all, I vehemently disagree. Going first, when your health and juice is guaranteed to be full, is such a crippling, overpowering, guaranteed advantage, that the assignment of "who goes first" is an unstoppable juggernaut.


Juice refreshes at turn start too, right? A side which moves first has to conserve juice to make sure it has some for dealing with late moving sides. Late moving sides have to conserve juice in order to make sure they have some when early moving sides use them at the start of the next day. It is equal.

One way of looking at it is that "Night" is really just another side and the turn order is really a circle.

The only thing that seems to be affected by day is alliance breaking and the effect of move regeneration.

Second of all, my point was that croakamancy is not weakened by not having access to leftover bodies. (A point I have already made) You've chosen to respond to unrelated supporting statements.


My point is that there are no "first-turners", sides move in a loop, not a line and most rules are aligned with turns not with days (alliance rules are day based).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:41 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:We've confirmed there's veils of diferent levels. A begginner foolmancer may get his first levels simply making your main city harder to spot at a big distance.


You're making this up (and you realize it too, of course).

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Foolmancy also seems quite handy at making maps and simulations, so I bet it can be used to help warlords make battle plans and help intellegence operations.


Which is not something that can/should be done only at base, especially when not all sides have easy communication.

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Not to mention from all the mancers in the frontline, Jack has easily been the less useful so far:
-Prevented Stanley from engaging Jillian... But for all we know Stanley may have smashed trough her just like he smashed trough Caesar. A lot of dwagons still died to fully cover the escape.


Yep. Would have smashed through no problem: implausible. Not only is that another hypothetical, it's a very unconvincing one considering how the battle went.

oslecamo2_temp wrote:-Made a group of troops displaced, only to be easily disrupted by archers, leaving the archons, Warlord and Wanda to do all the hard work.


I remember a turnamancy caster link being involved in thwarting that plan. To argue that it makes Jack's abilities, or Foolamancy's use in the frontline, look bad is quite a stretch.

oslecamo2_temp wrote:-Distracted an enemy warlord for some moments to pull a healomancy scroll on Wanda, and then she would've died anyway if said warlord didn't get killed by their own side.


Another hypothetical. Antium had several moments to stab at what he thought was Wanda, then found her, then moved towards for the kill, and then- only the arrow stopped him.

I don't know about anyone else, but your points against Jack look downright silly, sorry. At the very least unsubstantiated.

oslecamo2_temp wrote:So in the tick of battle Jack can at best provide fleeting distractions, which just pale in comparison to army-wiping nukes, making the enemy fight for you, doubling your troops, hit-and-run from underground, colapsing cities over the enemy, etc, etc. And Jack's a freaking master foolmancer! What do you think a begginer could exactly acomplish in the heat of battle?


Jack was able to provide cover for a capital killing force that was designed to bypass the defenses of Jetstone- and did. That's a potentially side-nuking tactic, and was only countered by a huge investment by Charlie into propping up Jill's side, and linking with a turnamancer. Arguably, Wanda's soft spot for Jillian helped make the situation worse for GK as well.

Jack was also capable to provide safe retreat from an ambush. To dismiss Foolamancy as mere distractions is, again, silly. Distractions and misdirections are a great asset to have during battle, as we have in fact seen every time Jack appeared in the field.

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Except you're not fighting a single enemy, but multiple ones. One of the main challenges on this kind of strategy games with multiple sides it's that you never know when your next neighbour comes knocking out of nowhere. Hiding your army is good against one enemy. Hididing a frontier city helps you against multiple enemies.


All the more reason to take one of the enemies out if you can. And besides, games against multiple (potential) enemies are more about coalition building and hitting the weakest player to finish them off, and less about sitting around hoping no one notices you.

oslecamo2_temp wrote:And that's why keeping your mancers at the capital is so damn popular in Erfworld. You don't want all your elite forces to be in some far away war when some other enemy pulls a sneak attack on your capital.


By the same argument, you shouldn't send your higher level warlords in the field either. After all, you must watch your back and center and all at all times! Nonetheless, succesful players do in fact risk elite units in offensive units (that's what they are for), and more to the point, the one Foolamancer we've seen in Erfworld has seen quite a lot of battlefield action and has performed admirably. So I don't see "keeping all Casters in Capitals" as quite that popular. There's some you may want to send closer to the fighting troops.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

Postby drachefly » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:32 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:-Made a group of troops displaced, only to be easily disrupted by archers, leaving the archons, Warlord and Wanda to do all the hard work.


I remember a turnamancy caster link being involved in thwarting that plan. To argue that it makes Jack's abilities, or Foolamancy's use in the frontline, look bad is quite a stretch.


No, the other time, at the bridge.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 006

Postby Kreistor » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:39 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:But I wonder, does it really pay off to sacrifice a lv4 warlord to destroy some siege? Experienced leaders isn't really something you should be sending in suicide attacks, specially when you're suposed to have the upper hand.


Okay, I overlooked this question, so sorry for the necromancy, but this is something I should have answered.

The easy answer is "Yes, it is."

In this case, Tommy tells Wanda that they wouldn't have enough Siege to get through the walls. This sends the entire column back, and it must delay the next attack for however long it takes to pop enough siege to try again. this is a net profit, financially, if the cost of popping a new warlord and digging units costs less and takes less time than popping the siege. Given that Haffaton has multiple cities, and Goodminton has one, it is almost certain that they can pop the units before the siege pops, but the cost is a question mark.

Second, it buys time. If the attack is something of a surprise, Haffaton has the time to move more infantry from other cities for defending Goodfinger. Losing significant units to buy time for even more significant units to arrive for the defense is a sound defensive strategy.

Third, a Level 4 Warlord isn't that powerful. The first levels are easy to get. It takes an exponential amount of time to attain each level. Note that One good battle can gain you a couple of low levels.

Fourth, digger units aren't that useful for defense, making them no better than any other for defending the city. Since they expect to lose the city, they'll lose all of the units in the city. So, they have three choices -- 1) Use them to defend the city like normal infantry, 2) Retreat them and increase the cahnce of losing the city, 3) Sacrifice them in a creative way to cost the enemy the chance to win the battle. The retreat option was viable, but this way Haffaton has the city units plus its production.

How's that?
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