Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

Postby Raza » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:40 am

Upon claiming it, she’d imposed Goodminton’s livery on it by natural Dollamancy, reluctantly changing the black to slate blue.

I feel her pain. :(
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

Postby Kreistor » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:32 am

Tathar wrote:
Kreistor wrote:This also raises the question of whether Parson can improve the personal Luckamancy of casters by playing wargame simulations like he did with Jack. Theoretically, if the wargames are similar enough to Erf, then Parson can give Jack the tactical experience -- and therefore better decision-making -- of a thousand battles as commander without putting anyone at risk.


I wouldn't call that Luckamancy. Remember that all bonuses would work the same way.

But the question is valid... Erfworlders are known to be able to train to higher level, but it is extremely slow. If Parson knew Judo, could he teach them the same way we do with the same effect, or would the mechanics of the system prevent the knowledge from being absorbed?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

Postby raphfrk » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:45 am

MonteCristo wrote:The more and more I think that delphie will be the true cause to goodmitten's fall...
Like she already determined that it would fall, and rather than try to save it, she will actually be counter-productive and focus only on making sure wanda is ready to escape when everything falls apart.


It is possible that once a predictamancer sees something, that future gets locked in.

If she predicts that her side will fall within 50 turns, then one way or another the side will fall by then. Duty might force her to try to make sure the side lasts at least 49, but can't make her try to change the fact that her side will fall.

Also, it is nice to see a link between fate and luck being made explicit. This would support the idea that fate will boost/suppress units and sides as necessary to make sure that any predictions come true.

cloudbreaker wrote:I have this strange feeling that Delphie may have recalled Wanda (at least in part) so that the Croakamancer doesn't gain more levels and replace Delphie as Goodminton's Chief Caster. Anyone else think this is likely?


Interesting idea, since Wanda is now only 1 level lower.

If you thought another caster would do badly as chief, does Duty require sabotaging that person? :)

Also, maybe she was in the Magic Kingdom to talk with all the other Predictamancers.

Tathar wrote:This also raises the question of whether Parson can improve the personal Luckamancy of casters by playing wargame simulations like he did with Jack. Theoretically, if the wargames are similar enough to Erf, then Parson can give Jack the tactical experience -- and therefore better decision-making -- of a thousand battles as commander without putting anyone at risk.


What did he actually do to the die to make it roll higher. Dice fall depending on how the person throws them. When a person is making choices during the throw, there are loads of equally good options, you just can't know which one will cause all 6's. However, the magic would force a good choice of when to release the dice.

For example, deciding to fall from airspace to the courtyard was a strategic choice. The odds of dying are random. However, in theory, it might depend on something about when you began your fall. For example, if the "universal system clock" is divisible by 10 at the moment the fall begins, then the unit is killed when they hit the ground. Luckamancy would mean that the unit is more likely to pick a "safe" moment. Wanda's fate enhancement means that she would almost never choose the fatal moment.

It is effectively an in-story explanation for plot armor :).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

Postby drachefly » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:38 am

I doubt the script will begin reflecting events on the Forum... oh... wait. You mean...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

Postby Jorgath » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:43 am

Geek out for a moment:

OMG SO META I LOVE IT!

Back to your regularly scheduled posting.

So some people in Erf understand that they live in a game-like world? Interesting.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

Postby Jorgath » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:49 am

Kreistor wrote:How is this different from our world? Well, superficially, it will appear to be similar, but in the midst of combat, having a leader near can't help you. You're concentrating, looking for openings, moving, predicting... but what you aren't doing is listening to your boss. You can't devote your attention to someone''s voice, or you'll get skewered. That means with or without an Officer near, you'll fight the same way, because you ignore him. In Erfworld, having that Officer beside you allows you to make better choices, wihtout paying any attention to him.


I have a quibble with this. What you say is in fact true in modern warfare. But in pre-WWI warfare, with lines of battle, volley fire, etc., and also in pre-gunpowder warfare, one of the most important factors in the effectiveness of a unit of soldiers was the steadiness of its leaders. So long as the leader remained cool and confident, the individual soldiers would be more likely (NOT guaranteed, of course) to remain cool, confident, and effective.
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how charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

Postby gameboy1234 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:04 pm

Saladman wrote:
Clay was shaking his head. “No, no...I think it’s the opposite.” He smiled, as someone who was speaking on a topic of great familiarity. “The dice describe the world. They don’t determine it. A Mathamancer can tell you how many dice will be rolled, how many points’ll be lost when you’re wounded. He’ll tell you what’ll probably happen, and possibly happen, and what can’t happen. But your choices still make it happen.”


This, if correct (I assume it is, for a caster speaking about his discipline), answers a pretty fundamental question about Erfworld. Battle plans, tactical decisions, personality, and judgement do really matter, to the extent of determining outcomes. I have an idea that's been discussed on the board before, though I don't recall when. I happen to like this interpretation more than choice and strategy just being an illusory overlay on a wargame engine, but the other was more plausible until now.


I read that and got the opposite. Strategy matters, of course. You have to pick your ground, look at rates and supply lines, and react to what the enemy is doing. But once a battle is joined, it's a dice-off. Probabilities are fixed.

There are still things you can do. Bring up reinforcements, cast spells, disengage from a loosing battle, parley. But absent your active choices, it's all up to the dice. Erfworld is not a game, but it sure has some game-like rules. And I think this is one of them. Battles = dice rolls.

What I think this does is explain Wanda's fatalism. If it's all up to the dice (and even if it isn't, I think Wanda could decide that Clay is wrong and it really is all up to the dice), then choices matter a lot less. Units still have to strive, but it's all up to luck and rolls and who's boosted and who's not. In fact she said as much at the end of the last book.

Final thought: Einstein famously said God does not play dice with the universe. In Erfworld, the Titans really do play dice with the universe.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

Postby name lips » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:23 pm

Wanda had no idea who might have owned this outfit previously. Tommy did not recognize it, nor had they felled any female commanders at Goodfinger. Upon claiming it, she’d imposed Goodminton’s livery on it by natural Dollamancy, reluctantly changing the black to slate blue. But on a whim, she kept just one of the pink flowers, offset in a patch of white. She and the Wanda in the mirror liked these garments very much.

So this is where she got the idea for her Decrypted livery. Black with a skull, and a single pink flower offset.

But Wanda doesn't seem the sort to be sentimental or nostalgic. I wonder why she resurrected this livery. Or was it even a conscious choice? Perhaps there's more significance here than meets the eye? Who originally created the outfit?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

Postby Swodaems » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:42 pm

Did anyone else read Clay's diatribe on the relationship between Luckamancy and Choice as 'Luckamancy magic boosts a unit's ability to make critical decisions'? Or, as I like to think of it, 'Luckamancy magic boosts a unit's Int score'.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

Postby HerbieRai » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:29 pm

I'm thinking we've seen the last of Atomic. Wanda probably got recalled so she would be saved from some deadly ambush.

Jorgath wrote:
Kreistor wrote:How is this different from our world? Well, superficially, it will appear to be similar, but in the midst of combat, having a leader near can't help you. You're concentrating, looking for openings, moving, predicting... but what you aren't doing is listening to your boss. You can't devote your attention to someone''s voice, or you'll get skewered. That means with or without an Officer near, you'll fight the same way, because you ignore him. In Erfworld, having that Officer beside you allows you to make better choices, wihtout paying any attention to him.


I have a quibble with this. What you say is in fact true in modern warfare. But in pre-WWI warfare, with lines of battle, volley fire, etc., and also in pre-gunpowder warfare, one of the most important factors in the effectiveness of a unit of soldiers was the steadiness of its leaders. So long as the leader remained cool and confident, the individual soldiers would be more likely (NOT guaranteed, of course) to remain cool, confident, and effective.


And now to counter quibble. The main war factor that Erfworld lacks from the real world is moral. In erfworld, 8 marbits getting attacked by 20 dwagons would stay and fight to the death. In the real world, the marbits would flee from combat and run for the hills. Steady leaders are used to keep your men from running. In erfworld the men already do not run, so they have the leaders boost their combat ability insteady.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:33 pm

HerbieRai wrote:And now to counter quibble. The main war factor that Erfworld lacks from the real world is moral. In erfworld, 8 marbits getting attacked by 20 dwagons would stay and fight to the death. In the real world, the marbits would flee from combat and run for the hills. Steady leaders are used to keep your men from running. In erfworld the men already do not run, so they have the leaders boost their combat ability insteady.


Well, to be honest, in Erfworld retreat is literally not an option out of turn, since there'll be invisible walls in the hex borders cornering you against the dragons, making any kind of escape impossible. And even a cornered rat will try to fight back if he has no escape route whatsoever.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

Postby drachefly » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:49 pm

Still, natural thinkamancy provides a clear mechanism for this sort of thing that just isn't about on Stupidworld.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

Postby Swodaems » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:53 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:
HerbieRai wrote:And now to counter quibble. The main war factor that Erfworld lacks from the real world is moral. In erfworld, 8 marbits getting attacked by 20 dwagons would stay and fight to the death. In the real world, the marbits would flee from combat and run for the hills. Steady leaders are used to keep your men from running. In erfworld the men already do not run, so they have the leaders boost their combat ability insteady.


Well, to be honest, in Erfworld retreat is literally not an option out of turn, since there'll be invisible walls in the hex borders cornering you against the dragons, making any kind of escape impossible. And even a cornered rat will try to fight back if he has no escape route whatsoever.


Well, in the marbits vs dwagons example, there actually is an escape route for the marbits, provided they have the digging special. There is still the question of 'Can these guys really dig fast enough to do that while under attack?', but that question can be avoided by having the marbit prepare for such circumstances ahead of time.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

Postby name lips » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:10 pm

Unled units automatically engage the enemy until either they either win or croak. Even if they have a legitimate way to escape they cannot use it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

Postby Raza » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:49 pm

Kreistor wrote:But the question is valid... Erfworlders are known to be able to train to higher level, but it is extremely slow. If Parson knew Judo, could he teach them the same way we do with the same effect, or would the mechanics of the system prevent the knowledge from being absorbed?

Interesting question.

I imagine he could teach a unit judo, but the unit's capacity to use it would only exceed their existing combat ability by the small amount that units progress from training. For the most part, it would just (optionally) replace their existing combat style.

Could be that erfworld has mechanics for gaining/replacing weapon bonuses (which we know exist) with unarmed style though, or I'd wonder why Transylvito warlords tend to fight unarmed.

Mmm. But what if he knew archery? Units would have to either gain the special or (for the most part) fail to absorb the training.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

Postby sleepymancer » Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:23 pm

Raza wrote:
Kreistor wrote:But the question is valid... Erfworlders are known to be able to train to higher level, but it is extremely slow. If Parson knew Judo, could he teach them the same way we do with the same effect, or would the mechanics of the system prevent the knowledge from being absorbed?

Interesting question.

I imagine he could teach a unit judo, but the unit's capacity to use it would only exceed their existing combat ability by the small amount that units progress from training. For the most part, it would just (optionally) replace their existing combat style.

Could be that erfworld has mechanics for gaining/replacing weapon bonuses (which we know exist) with unarmed style though, or I'd wonder why Transylvito warlords tend to fight unarmed.

Mmm. But what if he knew archery? Units would have to either gain the special or (for the most part) fail to absorb the training.


facetiousness time - Judo? no. But maybe Parson could teach sumo :p
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

Postby Whispri » Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:55 pm

name lips wrote:Unled units automatically engage the enemy until either they either win or croak. Even if they have a legitimate way to escape they cannot use it.

And yet Ansom's tunnel forces routed when the last Warlord fell.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:14 pm

Whispri wrote:And yet Ansom's tunnel forces routed when the last Warlord fell.

Ansom's forces weren't unlead; they had leadership in the hex. The 'engage until dead' rule applies when a stack with no leadership enters a hex with an enemy force.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

Postby Whispri » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:28 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
Whispri wrote:And yet Ansom's tunnel forces routed when the last Warlord fell.

Ansom's forces weren't unlead; they had leadership in the hex. The 'engage until dead' rule applies when a stack with no leadership enters a hex with an enemy force.

They became unled when the last Warlord died. They subsequently routed. The 'engage until ded' clause would have been in effect when panic set in.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 007

Postby multilis » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:26 pm

routed means to be completely defeat, and become disorganized.
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